This is not a question, but a statement: From the myriad of categories of questions, situations, feelings of frustration, etc. that are expressed on these pages, I have begun to wonder "is anybody back there?"- is anyone listening to the gazillion dilemmas that the AME officers and membership are facing and dealing these days? Is it really the intent to give the pastors the feeling that they are the RULING body in our churches? There are officers and members that are making all kinds of attempts at maintaining "order and decency" with the pastor, to no avail, being told things like, a situation is permissible because of their "pastoral authority" or "pastoral privilege", both of which sound so authoritative. I have come to wonder about my beloved AME denomination, are the "problems" that we are having in our churches "built in" problems due to the "power" given to pastors regarding all boards, etc. in the church? Can anyone feel, and hear our pain and frustration?

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Answers

MANY MEMBERS ARE FEELING THE SAME WAY. This feeling seem to cross the generations of the church. However, I Feel that this is due to lack of supervision of leaders above the pastors. The Presiding Elders who are supposed to check this type of behavior. When the Presiding Elders come quarterly, they do not stay long enough to observe this behavior. MANY Pastors are equally rude to the Presiding Elders and this is not reported. I Think many coat tails need to be pulled.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

From the myriad of categories of questions, situations, feelings of frustration, etc. that are expressed on these pages, I have begun to wonder "is anybody back there?" AME Today editor Rev. Fisher has it on personal testimony that at least Bishop Bryant is "back there", and we have seen contributions from the DeVeaux family as well. Let us assume that the portion of the bench that is wired is "back there." But let's also remember that this is one of two heavy Annual Conference seasons, and a number of the bishops are engaged in serious prayer and deliberation over the appointments they must make - a time-consuming activity that may not permit them the luxury of colloquy and debate at the moment.

- is anyone listening to the gazillion dilemmas that the AME officers and membership are facing and dealing these days? I am sure the GenCon sensitized a number of our leaders to the pressing issues of the day. What I found interesting, though, is that the list of some of the issues sounded a lot like an excerpt from the 1928 GenCon (an article earlier this year from Dr. Jamye Coleman Williams in the AME Review ). Perhaps some of these problems occur in cycles.

Is it really the intent to give the pastors the feeling that they are the RULING body in our churches? I don't think God, the Bench, or the Discipline are into "feelings" in that way. But specifically, each pastor has a responsibility before God and the bench to lead the flock to which she or he is assigned in holiness, truth, love, etc. We as laity, we as members, should not overlook the severity and gravity of this charge. Pastoring is not a walk in the park, a casual dalliance in the pulpit, nor a capricious excursion in homiletics and forensics. The pastor has, since Peter on Pentecost, the responsibility to discharge the Great Commission with fervor, humility, and holiness.

There is also a difference between a "church" and a secular organization. We are not a business in the traditional sense, where a CEO carries out the wishes of the Board of Directors. We are not a club, where fraternal decisions are made in an oligarchical fashion. We are not a nation, where choices, vision and direction are established by majority rule. We are the Church, the Body of Christ. If we are indeed His Body then He must be the head. As such, the Methodist mode of governance has from its inception been hierarchical - Christ, the Episcopacy, the Elders, the Pastor, the Local Assembly. This hierarchy need not be dictatorial, but should probably be along the lines described in Ephesians of the relationship between a husband and a wife. To that end, we the members must work together with the pastor to accomplish the mission and role of the Church, as directed and mandated by our Savior.

There are officers and members that are making all kinds of attempts at maintaining "order and decency" with the pastor, to no avail, being told things like, a situation is permissible because of their "pastoral authority" or "pastoral privilege", both of which sound so authoritative. I sense you are now talking about a specific situation. it would be interesting to note how long these officers have served in their present capacities. It is also interesting to note that not all AME churches have these problems. Many seem to be able to administer many things in harmony and cooperation with the pastor. perhaps it would be useful to seek out some of these congregations/officers and see how they do it.

I have come to wonder about my beloved AME denomination, are the "problems" that we are having in our churches "built in" problems due to the "power" given to pastors regarding all boards, etc. in the church? Are the officers and members prepared to report to the conference that they can carry on the mission of the church without the pastor? The Bible tells us "without a vision the people perish." If the pastor is the conveyor of a vision, should not the people follow it? Or have we reached the point of self-confidence where we no longer feel we need a vision, or leadership?

Can anyone feel, and hear our pain and frustration? Can the membership feel the frustration of a pastor assigned to a congregation that does not want him or her, or feels they have already identified all the answers?

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Barbara's sobering lamentation strongly suggests that the disconnect between spiritual leadership and laity is growing in our Zion. Is the developoment and execution of church policy soley that of the clergy or does the laity have an equal role? Alas, like most social conundrums, the issue is about demands for co-equality. Spiritual cliches' like pastoral privilege or pastoral authority only exacerbate the tensions. But is co-equality in policy development really realistic when the AME Connectional model is based on hierarchical foundations? Employee empowerment, profit sharing and "flat organizations" make a lot of sense when reading about case studies in the Harvard Business Review [HBR]. Unfortunately, I haven't read any articles in the HBR over the last 15 years describing church hierarchies as innovative management models. Organized religion, irrespective of denomination, is nothing more than a model of social control. As long as the checks and balances are actively monitored people will have confidence in the "system". If not, then we all might be using the same warning the Apollo 11 space engineers uttered in the late 60s, "Houston We've Got A Problem!!"

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

"Is anyone listening?" - If they are, there is little they can do here. I believe that if you take specifie incidents up the chain of command, someone will listen. (Pastor-> Presiding Elder -> Presiding Bishop - Annual Conference, etc.) That does not mean you will be satisfied, but I believe you will be heard. If, after you have carried your situation as high as possible, you still have no resolution, it may be that your expectations are inconsistent with the AME Church Discipline. And even then, you can work from within the AME Church to help shape it to be the kind of church that God would have it to be. Our church has changed, slow I will admit, but change can be effected. Keep the Faith Blessings

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

Bro. Alton brings out a good point. If this is you Annual Conference season then this the very time to bring this sort of frustation to the attention of the presiding bishop. Concerns of the congregations should be voiced to the delegate who then in turn should try to meet with the bishop during the session of the conference. This is of course in the extreme case that all avenues to work with pastor have failed. The same process should also be used if a church feels it is about to lose a effective pastor they would like to stay. As stated above you may not be satisfied with the result, but should make sure you are heard as long as you speak for the congregation as a whole and not as a lone voice.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

If you find fault with anyone in the church, pastor included, then scripture tells us to go to them and talk to them. If they will not listen, take two or three others. If they still persist, bring them before the elders of the church. In the case of a pastor, the elder is the presiding elder. You may speak to him privately, or lodge a formal complaint in writing, called an appeal. Send a copy to the pastor so everything is on the table, and when asked at the quarter whether there are any appeals, the answer will be yes. This is the beginning of a formal path of complaint. Most churches do not use it. If the lay feel strong in their frustration, then they should put it's organization to work.

If the lay sit back and accept the lie that pastors have total authority, then the dictatorial tendancies of many will just continue. The AME church has checks and balances, but they must be used.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

Concerns are very valid. But let's establish first who is suppose to be in charge of the Church, Jesus Christ. It is God's Church and many times we all can let the flesh get in the way, but we should be praying for our Zion and that the Holy Spirit led us. As a Church being led by the Holy Spirit we should not devalue integrity and discipleship. As Christians are we under the law or grace. In some cases, the law is considered over grace and I believe this can be said for clergy and lay. Yes, as a Pastor I understand and can hear the frustration and pain, it time for restoration and healing. Jesus came to set us free. We must take our burdens to the Lord and learn how confront issues in love and humility with one another. In all things remember Jesus principle: Love one another as I have loved you. I would encourage you and others to begin to pray and seek answers from God. Since it is God's Church, let us try checking in with Him on matters prior to taking any other action.

My prayers are with you and others. We must have love and unity in the Body of Christ. We need to look more closely at our leader, Jesus Christ and how He empowered those around Him.

I believe that healthy dialogue between clergy and the laity would be very helpful.

-- Anonymous, September 27, 2000

I remember Bishop H.Breaden say once about the state of the country after Ronald Reagan was elected President. People were afaid because they felt that the republican party was not friend to the communities of color. Bishop acknowledge that Reagan was Presidents but as for as he knew "God was still in charge of the country". For those churches that seem to be having problems with the structure of the church, they need to first remember that God is still in charge. And as mother use to say, "God does not like ugly". It is amazing as we start out in this Seventh Millennium how many churches are feeling over powered by their pastors. One problem is many officers and members do not know the structure or rubric of the AME church. Another problem but not really a problem is many new pastor are well educated in the stucture and rubric of the church. So we have a classic head on collision. Many times there is no winner when the two clash. So we as members and officers must study, watch and pray for the church. Ministers must realize that as the church go thru these new changes that they may have Pastoral Privelege, but "God is still in Charge". We must let Jesus turn our pain and frustration into love and peace.

-- Anonymous, September 27, 2000

Does this apply to the situation? God gave to Abraham and his seed the entire land of Caanan, yet they had to drive out the current inhabitants in order to possess what God had given to them. God gave his people manna in the wilderness but it stopped when they had the opportunity and resources to provide for themselves. Did God liberate us from slavery and Jim Crow? If so, why did so many have to die to accomplish the task? Should there be changes in our church law regarding the authority of pastors, presiding elders, and bishops?

-- Anonymous, October 02, 2000

It is my understanding from the AME Discipline that the pastor over the church, boards and etc. This is not so much as authoritative but more in an administrative role to assure the proper management of church business and practice. As the laity becomes more educated and more powerful within the secular community, it is imperative that the pastors allow equal access to the direct administration of the church. In other words, pastors have the final authority over all church matters yet the laity also has equal opportunity in the decision making policies of the church through active participation on boards and ministries. This does not negate the role of the pastor as shephard, elder, or administrator, but broadens it out and allows room for the pastor to be focused on the work of the Lord and the perfecting of the saints. ALl saints are called to work according to Eph 4:1-2, but it is the pastor's job to assure growth individually, collectively, and especially ministerially according to Eph 4:11-14.

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-- Anonymous, October 13, 2000

Bishop John Bryant once preached a sermon where he defined two terms: Is-ness and Ought-ness. Is-ness refers to the way it is and of course ought-ness referres to the way it ought to be. The discipline does an excellent job of defining the way it is and you did an excellent surrary of the same. But is that the way it OUGHT to be? I take issue with your critism of the educational level of the AME Lay people. If the educational level of the Lay is not equal to the clergy, it si because the educated lay are leaving our church. Blessings, Pastor Paris

-- Anonymous, October 13, 2000

Is the authority given to the pastor the problem, or just the use of that authority. In 1 Tim. 5, there seems to be some authority associated with Timothy, yet he is instructed regarding its use (vss 1-2). This is in the same church to whom the purpose of the ministry gifs is written. In Ephesians, no authority is mentioned, but submission is. In Timothy, everybody needs to be exhorted.

Perhaps if all of us strove to maintain the 'unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace', then we will have a church that submits of one another instead of one person feeling than he or she needs to take authority over another.

I am reminded that Jesus has all authority, yet we are 'workers together with God'. Many need to ask how Jesus would handle a situation if He were pastor, and we would not have so many abuses of authority.

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2000

Barbara I want to begin by saying I am new to the denomination, but not new to serving God and Christ. I am in the fifth district, my Presiding Elder is Ellis Casson and our Bishop is Rev. Dr. John Bryant. I feel called to start an A.M.E church in Bozeman, Montana. For the AME presense is badly needed here. More African-Americans are moving west, Native Americans are dying from poverty, people of every race are hungry for a gospel of liberation. I contacted the elder and Bishop by letter, and the response to my request for evangelism was answered immediately. "Let's get the Ball rolling" I have found as a pastor whenever ministers and laity work together on evangelism, seeking out those who have not heard the good news. Miracles happen, the church is transformed. I know my Bishop and Elder are listening, for their hearts are focused on growth of our Denomination and spreading the good news. Barbara perhaps you and others can come up with a mission project in your town. i.e aids prevention, food bank, jail and prison ministry etc. Write up a proposal of visitation, volunteers, fundraising etc. Present the proposal to your Bishop, Elder and pastor and watch what happens!! God has authority over every human being. Continue to pray for our leaders. We do have good Bishops, Elders, pastors who are doing the work of the lord. Hold on for you will encounter them. Rev. Denise Rogers

-- Anonymous, October 15, 2000