This came into my inbox from another list today. This man is very discouraged and sad. I hope you can read it without my forematting it. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< A long time ago, I canceled my subscription to---- and today I made a mistake and signed up for a list called, ------- After about twenty messages I unsubscribed. Why? Because these forums are nothing but ways that brethren are using to bite and devour each other (Gal. 5:15).

There is no spirit of love for a brother anymore. It seems brethren don't care one iota about the things they say or how they use the scripture. Paul also told the Gelatins, "Brethren if a man is overtaken in a fault, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness considering yourself lest you also be tempted," (Gal. 6:1). Read Matthew 7:1-6, and pay close attention to verse 5! Judging is not wrong, we have to do that all of the time, it's the attitude manifested when you judge that makes your judgment right or wrong.

Brethren, we're consuming each other, just as Paul warned the Galatians they would. I see no love for a brother in what many write on such lists or in the magazines I have mentioned. Brethren today always seem to be trying to pick a fight with one another. And usually over things that on the day of judgment won't matter one whit regarding their salvation! However, it will affect the salvation of some because of the spirit in which they handled it.

Let's start acting like Christians toward one another again. It's not that hard to do, and it makes life so much more pleasant. I recall one man who ridiculed and berated me when I took a certain position regarding an issue that brethren have been fighting over for years that did not agree with his. Show me from the scripture, in a spirit of love. Insults never accomplished anything, and this brother, righteously indignant because I chose to disagree with his position decided that ridicule was the best way to handle it. I wish I still had those messages, but they have long since been banished from my hard drive.

snip

Now, I realize I am going to be bitten on for what I have written here, but hopefully some of you will stop and think for a minute. Some out there are going to say, ----- he's for soft preaching, and never calling names or naming sin." Obviously these people have never heard me preach, and I'll give you names and phone numbers of people who will tell you differently. But there's a right way and a wrong way to handle anything, and more and more I see it all being handled in the wrong way. Think about the fact that we are brothers and sisters in Christ. That should have some special significance to you. Would you talk to a physical brother or sister in the manner you talk to your spiritual brothers and sisters? I know many wouldn't. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Offered for your consideration......

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Answers

And D. Lee....

Notice AGAIN.....who is calling someone else's Christianity into question.....yep.....the "love gal."

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Now....the "love gal" takes on the role of Jesus and refers to people as hypocrites.

Hmmmmm....am I missing something.....or was Jesus not the only one to ever refer to someone as a hypocrite in the Scriptures???

In fact, no apostle even referred to someone as a hypocrite.

Hmmmm.....scary stuff.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

D. Lee.....

In reference to your question about "hypocrisy"....I note that Paul is speaking in the "generic" sense....not the specific...(i.e., he does not specifically name someone by name....or point the finger at an individual or group and call them "hypocrites"...as Jesus did).

This may be a minor point....and it may be a fine distinction. However, I have always been uncomfortable in using that word.

The Greek word for "hypocrite" was a word that was used in the theater. In biblical times, there were often not enough people to fill all the roles in a play....therefore....an individual would have to play two parts....wearing two different masks. The word used to describe that acitivity is the word that is used by Jesus "hypocrite"....i.e., they say one thing.....do another....or...their heart is one way....and yet they play another part.

It seems to me....Jesus was infinitely qualified to use the word "hypocrite" because He was able to know the thoughts and intentions of someone's heart....even....while they were play acting another part.

To use the word "hypocrite" would in essence mean that I have the ability to look on someone's heart and know their motives, agenda's, etc. I don't...and in fact feel that is a dangerous position to take.

I may disagree with someone's actions....their arguments....their theology....their interpretation. However, I have no ground and/or ability to judge their motives. They could be just....sincerely wrong....and often times are.

Hope that helps to clarify my position on that.

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

Yes, Nelta,

The fact that Christianity spread so quickly in the early years was because of their love for each other. "See how they love one another".

It is sad to see supposed Christian 'brothers' behaving worse than any adversaries I've ever witnessed, and I personally don't believe a couple of them are Christians. They exhibit NONE of the Spirit of Christ. No 'fruit of the Spirit'.

I have a right to believe they are not Christians.

They might have been dipped forty times, but it's obvious it did no good.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Connie,

I do believe that if Apostle Paul were here today...using the same language he used in the letters he wrote...you would believe that he was not a Christian. You would probably consider him to be a much more harsh man that E. Lee has ever thought about being.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

D. Lee,

Do you mind printing out the verses you refer to?

I know that Paul condemned the 'whited sepulchres' ~ the Pharisees to whom the letter of the law was much more important than the spirit of the law. Many here are devoted to the letter and have ignored the spirit. They know who they are. God is convicting them. You can tell by seeing which ones 'put the shoe on'.

They completely ignore I Corinthians 13 and the verses which state that 'love covers a multitude of sin' and the ones which lay out the 'fruit of the spirit'.

They love their modern equivalent of 'phylacteries'. They insist that only the Scriptures enlighten us but ignore the main points it proffers.

Pharisses. Hypocrites. God forgive them. Even though they occasionally make me angry, as they did Paul, I forgive them. As Paul did.

Connie

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Oh, yeah, the Judaizers.

Pharisees, Judaizers ~ take your pick.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

You're right, Danny.

Jesus talked to the Pharisees and the hypocrite; Paul talked to the JUDAIZERS and the Pharisees.

They all had a lot in common; they wanted to put burdens on men's shoulders which God did not intend for them to have ~ He sent His Son to die so that we would not have to be burdened by legalisms which ignored the real message He was trying to deliver ~ LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

I am sorry I got angry after your response.

And, Nelta, I am sorry your thread turned into the very thing you wanted to avoid, and my part in it.

I'm not sorry for saying what I said, however.

The two greatest commandments: 'Love God, with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself'.

'And who is my neighbor?...'

I answered, Nelta, because so often no one answers a post, and I consider that a little rude in itself.

By the way, Nelta, your site is very polite AND informative.

-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000

Connie,

This is just a small exmaple of the language some of the apostles used in the Bible. It is called rebuking and refuting. Both we are told to do today. Now most do not use this kind of language today, it is not considered to be loving by many if not most of the so called Christian world today. These people DO NOT have a GODLY understanding of love, but a WORLDLY one. Our first love must be to Christ and the truth of His Word. If we love teaching, men, doctrine that goes against the apostles teaching we are CONDEMNED!!

Acts 13:9-10 But Saul, who was also {known as} Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze upon him, and said, "YOU WHO ARE FULL OF ALL DECEIT AND FRAUD, YOU SON OF THE DEVIL, YOU ENEMY OF ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?

Gal 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospelwhich is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, LET HIM BE ETERNALLY CONDEMNED!

Gal 5:7-12 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion {did} not {come} from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump {of dough.} I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. WOULD THAT THOSE WHO ARE TROUBLING YOU WOULD EVEN MUTILATE THEMSELVES.

Eph 4:14-15 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the TRICKERY OF MEN, BY CRAFTINESS IN DECEITFUL SCHEMING; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all {aspects} into Him, who is the head, {even} Christ,

1 Tim 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may INSTRUCT CERTAIN MEN NOT TO TEACH STRANGE DOCTRINES

1 Tim 6:3-5 If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, HE IS CONCEITED {AND} UNDERSTANDS NOTHING; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2 Tim 3:1-4:4 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these {men} also oppose the truth, MEN OF DEPRAVED MIND, REJECTED AS REGARDS THE FAITH.

Titus 1:9-16 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many REBELLIOUS MEN, EMPTY TALKERS AND DECEIVERS, ESPECIALLY THOSE OF THE CIRCUMCISION, WHO MUST BE SILENCED BECAUSE THEY ARE UPSETTING WHOLE FAMILIES, TEACHING THINGS THEY SHOULD NOT {TEACH} for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "CRETANS ARE ALWAYS LIARS, EVIL BEASTS, LAZY GLUTTONS." THIS TESTIMONY IS TRUE. FOR THIS CAUSE REPROVE THEM SEVERELY THAT THEY MAY BE SOUND IN THE FAITH, not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but by {their} deeds they deny {Him} BEING DETESTABLE AND DISOBEDIENT, AND WORTHLESS FOR ANY GOOD DEED.

Titus 3:10-11 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that SUCH A MAN IS WARPED AND SINFUL; he is self-condemned.

2 Pet 3:16-17 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, WHICH IGNORANT AND UNSTABLE PEOPLE DISTORT, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

II Jn 1:7-11 MANY DECEIVERS, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. ANY SUCH PERSON IS THE DECEIVER AND THE ANTICHRIST. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. IF ANYONE COMES TO YOU AND DOES NOT BRING THIS TEACHING, DO NOT TAKE HIM INTO YOUR HOUSE OR WELCOME HIM. ANYONE WHO WELCOMES HIM SHARES IN HIS WICKED WORK.

Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. OUTSIDE ARE THE DOGS AND THE SORCERERS AND THE IMMORAL PERSONS AND THE MURDERERS AND THE IDOLATERS, AND EVERYONE WHO LOVES AND PRACTICES LYING.

1 Tim 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and DOCTRINES OF DEMONS, by means of the HYPOCRISY OF LIARS seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

Have I therefore become your enemy by telling you the truth? Gal 4:16

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

With these words Connie, you accuse many in this forum of not having love..."They completely ignore I Corinthians 13 and the verses which state that 'love covers a multitude of sin' and the ones which lay out the 'fruit of the spirit'."

After reading the above verses I have quoted several apostles will probably fit into that category or yours also.

But I say, that the apostles UNDERSTOOD GODLY LOVE. They were gentle and kind, patient and understandingloving. Yet as you seethey also could be very harsh (some today would call unloving with no sign of the fruit of the Spirit as you do) and hard when it was called for refuting and rebuking false doctrine, false teachers, and sin.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Danny,

I'm sure the apostles would be booted from Nelta's board, not always quite polite enough.

Also, do you think Paul was calling liars hypocrites with the following?

1 Tim 4:1-2 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and DOCTRINES OF DEMONS, by means of the HYPOCRISY OF LIARS seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

I agree with everything you have posted, D. Lee.

These were addressed to the JUDAIZERS, PHARISEES, AND HYPOCRITES. The ones who preached another Gospel ~ the ones who preached that works can save us. The ones who have a form of Godliness, but who deny the POWER thereof. The ones in charge of dead men's bones.

The ones who take away from the Scriptures.

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Connie,

These are addressed to any today who are:

False teachers, teaching false doctrine, dogs, immoral, murderers, deceivers, ignorant, unstable, warped, sinful, detestable, disobedient, worthless, rebellious, empty talkers, depraved, rejected, lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, conceited, understanding nothing, sons of the devil, enemies of righteousness, full of fraud, full of deceit, and those who love and practice lying.

So since you agree with me, I take it you will not any more call others unloving and without the fruit of the Spirit for using this language?

I believe you accuse E. Lee because you think he is too harsh and not a Christian because he uses this language. I believe you accuse Danny and myself of the same. How is it that you call others here using this language unloving and without the fruit of the Spirit, yet you yourself use the same language??

You accuse us of ignoring the Holy Spirit and His work. You even have the gall to accuse us of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, a sin that is unforgivable. Not only that but you say there is no hope for the organization. Exactly what you mean by that I can only guess. Then you say the Holy Spirit has quietly gotten up and left.

Sad? Yes! All this while saying one thing then doing what you accuse us of doing. Yes, it does sound like hypocrisy to me.

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

D. Lee,

Can you please (without going back several months ~ at least as far back as Mother's Day) show me where I have even MENTIONED E. Lee's name, much less criticized him?

I have responded to a couple of Danny's posts, yes. But it is really the way they treat their BROTHERS which is the shame to me. I don't care how anyone treats me here.

The only reason you treat me the way you do is because I wasn't immersed at the time I believed. It doesn't matter that I said I was waiting and praying for my husband to want to be immersed. You don't take my own words when I tell about my conversion experience.

Oh, yes, also because I say the gifts are still operative.

You have a lot to learn, D. Lee, much of which may be quite painful.

I pray that God will be merciful to you in the teaching.

I wish you no ill, and I forgive you.

Connie

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

D. Lee:

I re-post from above:

These are addressed to any today who are:

False teachers, teaching false doctrine, dogs, immoral, murderers, deceivers, ignorant, unstable, warped, sinful, detestable, disobedient, worthless, rebellious, empty talkers, depraved, rejected, lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, conceited, understanding nothing, sons of the devil, enemies of righteousness, full of fraud, full of deceit, and those who love and practice lying.

<><....<><....<><....<><....<><....<><....<><....<><....<><....<><.... <><....<><....<><....<><

Sounds like this forum, all right!

-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000

Connie,

Do you mean to tell me that with your following words you did not have certain people in mind?

Many here are devoted to the letter and have ignored the spirit. They know who they are. God is convicting them. You can tell by seeing which ones 'put the shoe on'. They completely ignore I Corinthians 13 and the verses which state that 'love covers a multitude of sin' and the ones which lay out the 'fruit of the spirit'. They love their modern equivalent of 'phylacteries'. They insist that only the Scriptures enlighten us but ignore the main points it proffers. Pharisses. Hypocrites. God forgive them. Even though they occasionally make me angry, as they did Paul, I forgive them. As Paul did. You say; they know who they are. God is convicting them. & You can tell by seeing which ones put the shoe on. Now tell me that you didnt have specific people in mind with those words. I can not take your words Connie when you tell me about your conversion experience, because it is not fully what the Bible teaches about salvation.

How am I treating you? I am disagreeing with you here on what you believe love to be and what the Bible says true love is. I would disagree with Danny in the same way, treat him the same way if he had the same concept about love that you do.

You say; Oh, yes, also because I say the gifts are still operative. Again I will say, the disagreement comes from what you teach and believe. I would argue the same with another who had your beliefs.

You are right in saying I have a lot to learn, and right in believing that much of it may be quite painful.

1 Pet 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

1 Pet 4:16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

1 Pet 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

Again Connie with these words Sounds like this forum, all right! you are doing what you say we should not do.

Can you see that Biblical love is not always soft, sweet, syrupy speech?

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000