A point of clarification that needs to be brought out in the presidential race.

Both candidates have been guilty of the error of referring to "Health care"....as a "right."

I challenge anyone.....show me in the Constitution where you are guaranteed healthcare for you or your family.

It's as simple as that. It is not a right guaranteed by the Constitution.

Now gun ownership.....that's a different issue!!! Right Robin??

-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000

Answers

No...that wasn't it at all Robin.

Our church has had two deaths over the last two weeks that has just drained all of us emotionally.

Theological debate had to take a back burner.

Getting ready for our "Bow Season Opener"....October 1st.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Thanks Marc!!

You'll find something!!

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Alan...

It is positions such as yours that has led to the erosion of true freedoms today.

Let me ask you....concerning the First Amendment that guarantees free speech and the freedom of religion....was that only "culturally shaped" and, therefore, in need today of revisionism??

Many who take your position think so and thus there is a push for a "Second Congressional Congress" among cultural liberals.

The issue of slavery is a "straw man"....for our founders put into the Constitution principles, when pursued to their logical conclusion, necessitated the abolishment of slavery...(i.e., "All men are created equal").

The brilliance of our founders in the writing of these documents far surpasses any of the elitist, liberal, rhetoric that I hear coming out today that suggests that it's a dying document....that needs to be revised.

They never intended for us to rewrite it....when keeping it....became uncomfortable.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

Alan....

READ YOUR OWN UNDERLINED WRITING.....the founding fathers suggested changing the GOVERNMENT.....not the CONSTITUTION.

Therefore, when you have a government, which will not uphold the Constitutional laws put in place....you change it....by election....or by revolution.

And you do have the "right to pursue happiness"..................

Get your own health insurance or pay your medical bills out of your own pocket....but it is not a "Right"....that the government (i.e., my tax dollars) has to pay your bills.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

No....the sin of Sodom was bona-fide homosexual perversion.

Well ladies and gentlemen....the forum is complete....we have ourselves a true to life "social liberal."

May I refer you a place where your views will be more welcome....

www.algore.com along with his cohort....Joe "Liberal-man."

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

By the way....Jesus was right again..."You place your traditions above the Word of God."

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

Alan....

I think your brush strokes.....are way too wide.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2000

Danny,

Good to have you back writing in!! I was afraid there for a while that most everyone was 'tongue'-tied.... so to speak. :-)

No more Gun Battles for me!

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Good luck Bow hunting this year Danny... our season in MN opened on Sept. 16. I am new here and have yet to find the time or land to hunt, though I hope to.

-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000

Well something I know a little about hunting and healthcare the right to keep and arm bears oops keep and bear arms and no constitutional right to health care. both require the person to be responsible for themselves. thanks to our forefathers without whose insight we would not enjoy the freedoms we have today. (sure wish a few of them were alive today)

-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000

The problem with basing the argument on the Constitution is that the Constitution was written over 200 years ago. Remember, the Constitution also gave us the right to own human beings as slaves, and that women were not able to vote...times change, and the authors of the Constitution knew that.

The problem here is that our culture does not go by what the Bible teaches. Yes, health care is the responsability of the individual, but in our society, the cost of health care is so bloated that it is unavailable to the poor. Our health care system is in the hands of the HMO's and the insurance companies, and their main concern is to make money, not heal the sick.
What does the Bible say about the poor and sick? To forget about them? To not help them? To let them get out of their problems by themselves? Hardly.

I would also like to point out that the two hunters of the Torah (the Five Books of Moses) speak of two hunters, Nimrod and Esau, both evil men. The sages point out that hunting hardens the spirit, making one oblivious to pain and suffering, and therefore hunting is frowned upon.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

Alan, it seems that the right to own slaves,as well keeping females from voting not to mention taking more than one wife goes back to the time of the Torah as well *wink* we are to take care of the sick and afflicted, widows and orphans,ect. as christians we feel the calling to do just that. thankfully we have a capitalistic economy that has fueled the research to be able to provide marvelous medicines and procedures for those of us that need them

yes and it does get expensive and until we get shareholders out of medicine it will be that way.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

Ah, but "slavery" in the Torah was vastly different than the "slavery" practiced in the 18th century ...or even today. Remember, the culture 3000 years ago was quite different...as far as our capitalistic society, you have hit the nail on the head. On one hand, yes, it has enabled us to make many marvelous medicines for profit, but on the other hand, our corporate greed prevents many of the poor and needy from getting them...

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

In response to Danny Gabbard's post:

It is positions such as yours that has led to the erosion of true freedoms today.

I find that an odd statement, seeing how you really don't know what my position is...I'm also a bit fuzzy on the "true freedoms" bit...please explain to me the difference between "true" freedoms and "false" freedoms.

Let me ask you....concerning the First Amendment that guarantees free speech and the freedom of religion....was that only "culturally shaped" and, therefore, in need today of revisionism??

Well, first of all, the Constitution was indeed "culturally shaped". I don't see such a document being written in 17th century France, for example...as far as "revisionism" is concerned, why on earth do you think the Constitution was written the way it was? Times change. An inflexible document would do greater harm than good down the long haul. Look at how our government was set up; the three branches, no one able to get the upper hand. Of course the Constitution needs revision; otherwise, there would be no need for amendments.

Many who take your position think so and thus there is a push for a "Second Congressional Congress" among cultural liberals.

There's that "position" thing agian...
...how can you say that when you don't know my position? I am neither liberal nor conservative. But by your "cultural liberals" remark, if you mean that I side with those who feel that I feel that the government should step in when the rights of the little fellow are getting trampled, well, you put me in good company, for men such as James Madison and Thomas Jefferson felt that way also. Read "The Federalist Papers" for some insight on the first amendment. Our Freedom of Religion was to ensure domestic tranquility against the tyrrany of the majority, for instance, a Christian majority forcing Christian prayers upon those who are non-Christian.

The issue of slavery is a "straw man"....for our founders put into the Constitution principles, when pursued to their logical conclusion, necessitated the abolishment of slavery...(i.e., "All men are created equal").

I'm afraid that you are a bit confused...the phrase "All men are created equal" is not in the Constitution, but in the Declaration of Independence. And, FYI, Thomas Jefferson (who happened to own slaves) had put a clause in the Declaration of Independence which spoke against slavery, but he was forced to remove it so as not to risk the ire of the southern slaveholders (such as George Washington, who owned lots of slaves).

The brilliance of our founders in the writing of these documents far surpasses any of the elitist, liberal, rhetoric that I hear coming out today that suggests that it's a dying document....that needs to be revised.

Yes, the founding fathers were brilliant, but they were brilliant elitist liberal rhetoricians.

They never intended for us to rewrite it....when keeping it....became uncomfortable.

Actually, if you take the time to read the Declaration of Independence, it says just that: if the government cannot ensure the "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (property was in the first draft) then it needs to be replaced. Here it is:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. (Read: change the system of government) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. (That includes the right to be able to go to a doctor when you are sick) That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, (Now, pay attention here...) it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

There is more, but I'm not going to post it here. But you get the idea...
...here endeth the lesson.

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

READ YOUR OWN UNDERLINED WRITING.....the founding fathers suggested changing the GOVERNMENT.....not the CONSTITUTION.

Danny: the Declaration of Independence was written before the Constitution, so I doubt that Jefferson had it in mind. And, yes, changing the form of government means changing the constitution. The Constitution is a contract between the peoples of the United States. It is not Holy Writ. When a small minority starts to take advantage of a larger majority, making the pursuit of happiness difficult, if not impossible...well, go read the Declaration of Independence again....

Therefore, when you have a government, which will not uphold the Constitutional laws put in place....you change it....by election....or by revolution.

The problem isn't NOT upholding the laws...it's the congress passing laws that benefit the very rich at the expence of the very poor...

And you do have the "right to pursue happiness".................. Get your own health insurance or pay your medical bills out of your own pocket....but it is not a "Right"....that the government (i.e., my tax dollars) has to pay your bills.

Again, you fail to grasp the concept. It is "your tax dollars" that forestall revolution...the violent overthrow of the government. But I am not blaming the working man who is indeed being over-taxed...over the past several decades, our government has passed laws giving tax- loopholes to corporations and the very rich. In 1950, over 50% of the tax dollars going to the government came from the corporations...now, it is less than 25%. Why, if the economy is doing so well (as we hear on the news) and our country is going through a period of unprecedented growth...that there are over 40 million people without health insurance? Why do so many millions of children live in poverty in the midst of the wealthiest country in history?

The sages teach that the sin of Sodom was their greed, their aversion to helping others in need. The Talmud speaks of four kinds of people: those who say, "What is yours is mine and what is mine is mine" are wicked; those who say "What is yours is mine and what is mine is yours" are foolish; those who say "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours" are righteous; those who say "What is mine is mine and what is yours is yours" are evil, like Sodom.
Statements such as, Get your own health insurance or pay your medical bills out of your own pocket....but it is not a "Right"....that the government (i.e., my tax dollars) has to pay your bills. fall into the Sodom category...

-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000

First of all, as I have stated, I am hardly liberal. I look at Al Gore as Dubya Bush's twin; they both support corporate interests. I do not support many of the "liberal" agendas: I am against abortions (as used for birth control or convienence), I support the death penalty, and I am quite against our increasing support of gay-rights movements, such as same-sex marriages. As far as what Jesus taught, well, saying that "you place your traditions above the Word of G- d"...well, that sounds like a perfect example of what I hear in many of these forums. How many of Jesus' teachings were about helping the poor? How many times did Jesus tell the wealthy, "Oh, hold on to your money, don't give any of it to those you think are less deserving" etc.? Too many Christians seem more interested in their traditions, the traditions of our sick money-centered culture, than in the Word.

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2000

Hey, at least I know how to paint....

-- Anonymous, September 25, 2000