Is suicide sin?greenspun.com : LUSENET : The Christian Church : One Thread |
Is it?
-- Anonymous, September 15, 2000
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
-- Anonymous, September 16, 2000
That all depends. If one is dying of cancer with no hope of recovery, suffering every moment even with the strongest medication for pain...would it be wrong to go ahead and end it all?My nephew shot himself within a few days or weeks of his final death. He had half his face gone, a bone protruding from his lower face area, unable to talk or eat in the normal way (and wanted nothing to eat anyhow.) He had skin cancer and there was no hope.
Now for another question: what about over-eating, smoking, drinking, fast driving, lack of exercise, and the many other things that puts someone at risk of dying from their own actions.
Nelta
-- Anonymous, September 16, 2000
Nelta,As for you last question, "Now for another question: what about over- eating, smoking, drinking, fast driving, lack of exercise, and the many other things that puts someone at risk of dying from their own actions." This would fit under D. Lee Muse's response, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor.6:19, 20). Realizing this... it seems obvious that we must strive to take care of our bodies.
-- Anonymous, September 17, 2000
There are some forms of 'suicide' that we wouldn't consider ot be sin. If someone runs into a burning building to save a baby, or jumps into the water to save someone, and dies in the process, this is not normally considered to be suicide.I have a problem with the 'mercy killing' idea. Dying with dignity, imo, allows the Lord to decide when we go.
I remember reading someone's comments on two virgins who lept off a bridge to their deaths, as recorded in Eusebius' _Ecclesiastical History._ They were going to be martyred as Christians, maybe raped, defiled in other ways, and killed for sport. The person who wrote the comment wrote taht perhaps they thought the angels might bear them up.
There are some fuzzy areas on the issue of suicide, especially when one is sacrificing his life to save others. This is different from a man killing himself because he lost all his money or a girl taking pills because her boyfriend broke up with her.
-- Anonymous, September 18, 2000
I agree that the body is a temple of God and that it is a sin to destroy it. I don't believe that suicide is a forgivable sin. It would not be appropriate to ask for forgiveness before the sin that is planned and you certainly can't ask for forgiveness after death. So that sin is taken with one.
-- Anonymous, September 19, 2000
Ken,To say that a sin is 'unforgivable' limits God, doesn't it? I think that God in His infinite wisdom can forgive anything He chooses.
Once we are washed in the blood of Christ, we are to confess and repent... but for our own good not for forgiveness, right? In other words, God doesn't need to hear us confess... He already knows. We need to confront ourselves (confess) and try to do better (repent)... BUT, this action is not for the forgiveness of sins.
Once we have been washed by the blood of Christ, our sins ARE forgiven (as long as we desire to claim Christ as our Saviour). We do not need to confess/repent every sin out of fear of losing our salvation if we don't. (This is close to the belief that sins are forgiven as we partake of the Lord's Supper.... so Don't Miss That.) If this were the case, we would all be in serious jeopardy of losing our salvation, wouldn't we? Let's say I am driving down the road, become angry at another driver (sin), and, as a result, lose control, crash and die..... I never had a chance to confess/repent... am I lost?
So, is suicide sin? I think so... it is the ultimate slap in the face of God.... we decide that He can't help us. But is it 'unforgivable' so as to result in the loss of salvation of a Christian.... I don't think so.
Others?
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
Robin,You bring out some good points... I think that this is one of those issues that only God knows the heart and only God can decide who is forgiven and who is not.
I am not sure if I could agree with your last statement that suicide is not "'unforgivable' so as to result in the loss of salvation of a Christian.... I don't think so."
While this may be true... I find it hard to believe that a Christian who is right with God would commit suicide. However, I must admit that I have never been in the situations that some have.
Again, God and only God know, but it is dangerous when we start saying that God forgives the suicide victim because that makes a way of escape for many who want out and think they are o.k.
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
How do you interpret the Bible verse which says:
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins...
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
Robin,Peter warns Simon of the immediate danger he is in concerning his trying to buy this power the apostles had. He tells Simon to repent for the forgivness of his sins. Notice Simon was already a baptized believer.
Acts 8:9-24 "Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, "This man is the divine power known as the Great Power." They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. REPENT OF THIS WICKEDNESS AND PRAY TO THE LORD. PERHAPS HE WILL FORGIVE YOU FOR HAVING SUCH A THOUGHT IN YOUR HEART."
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
Duane,I didn't do it, I don't even know how to use the bold command online:)
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
D. Lee,Do you believe that every time you sin you lose your assurance of salvation until you repent?
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
I fixed it :)
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
D. Lee,Consider Romans chapters 5-8.... specifically, here are some to think on:
Romans 7 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. [3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, [1] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, [2] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. [3] And so he condemned sin in sinful man, [4] 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man [5] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind [6] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. [7] And by him we cry, "Abba, [8] Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
As far as Simon goes, I don't know.... perhaps Peter saw that he was not living by the Spirit of Christ but by his sinful nature.
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
Duane,You wrote, "How do you interpret the Bible verse which says:
IF we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins... "
I believe we have to take it in the context it is written. The verse you quote comes right after "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." So, I think the verse you quote is saying we must not say that we have no sin (but instead confess to sin)... in other words, we must realize that we are sinners in need of a Savior (and follow God's plan)... and God will be faithful and just to forgive us (via the blood of His Son).
In other words, this is referring to us being sinners in general... and admitting it.... not to us confessing each and every individual, specific sin for forgiveness. IMO
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
You know that guy in Corinth, who had his father's wife? In I Corinthians 5, paul said to deliver such a one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord.If a person is disfellowshipped like this, dies withotu confessing his sins, his flesh being destroyed, can his Spirit be saved in the day of the Lord?
This brings to mind that under the Law, there were certain sins that could be atoned for with animal sacrifices. Certain sins required the blood of the person who committed the sin- murder and adultery for instance. (I wonder if David's adultery is something Paul had in mind when he said that he was made righteous by faith, and said blessed is he whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sisns are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord would not impart sin. Peter's statements about Christ justifying men from all that they could not be justified by the law of Moses.)
The person in this sutation's flesh is destroyed, but his spirit may have a posibility of being saved in the day of the Lord. If he does not ask for forgiveness in this life, does this possibility still exist?
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
Marc,I find it hard to believe that there are that many Christians out there who 'want out' but are holding back because they think they will go to hell for suicide. On the other hand, I sure would not want to wrongly teach that it was forgivable and have even one say, "Ok, here I go......."
Secondly, whenever a discussion of God's grace comes up, it seems the 'Oh, I'm free to sin then' line of reasoning comes up. (Or even the 'Hmmmm.... maybe I should sin a lot so God's grace can increase' thought.) "By no means!" as Paul says in Romans..... In other words, even IF God's grace covers a Christian in suicide... it doesn't make it right.
I don't know........ I pray that I might never find myself counseling one who is considering suicide... and if I do, I pray for God's wisdom and words!
-- Anonymous, September 20, 2000
Robin,How can God's grace cover a Christian in suicide considering the following verse?
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
From you: "Secondly, whenever a discussion of God's grace comes up, it seems the 'Oh, I'm free to sin then' line of reasoning comes up. (Or even the 'Hmmmm.... maybe I should sin a lot so God's grace can increase' thought.) "By no means!" as Paul says in Romans..... In other words, even IF God's grace covers a Christian in suicide... it doesn't make it right."
I do not believe that every time I sin that I loose my salvation, but if I continually sin with out repenting then yes, I will be lost with no hope. Those who do choose to continue in sin are not covered by Christ's blood...
Heb 10:26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
I Jn 3:6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
If we continue to sin, we do not know Him.
I am unsure where you are going with the Romans scripture you quoted. In the first, isn't Paul continually fighting the sinful nature? Something we do daily as we repent of our sins also?
In the second: There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. This is for one of course who is striving on a regular basis to live by the Spirit. But if we sin and know we sin and do not repent, we do not live by the Spirit, therefore we would be condemned would we not?
In Paul's letter to the Corthians he warns the church about repenting: 2 Cor 7:8-10 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it-- I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while--yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
Also, John in Revelation speaks to the Church; "...You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000
D. Lee,You have said, "How can God's grace cover a Christian in suicide considering the following verse?
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
I'm not sure this verse applies to us individually being God's temple... but instead to us collectively as the 'church' being God's temple.... that seems to fit better with the previous verses starting around verse 9.... ??? If it is taken specifically, then wouldn't it imply that if someone murders (destroys) a Christian (God's temple), then God will destroy him? Yet, I think that God can and does forgive murder....
Important: My commentary I am looking at defines 'destroys' as 'to corrupt or to spoil'.... ie., not as to murder or kill.
I hope you can see that I am not sure about the issue of suicide being 'forgivable' from what I have written. However, I do lean that direction.
Thanks for discussing this with me.... I'm hoping others with more Biblical knowledge that I will weigh in on this and on the issue of the necessity of on-going confession/repentance by the Christian for forgiveness of sins.
-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000
The above should read, "I'm hoping others with more Biblical knowledge than I will weigh in...."
-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000
Brother Link:You have said:
There are some forms of 'suicide' that we wouldn't consider ot be sin. If someone runs into a burning building to save a baby, or jumps into the water to save someone, and dies in the process, this is not normally considered to be suicide.
You are absolutely right when you say that this is not normally considered to be suicide! For one running into a burning building to save a baby knows that he is putting his life at great risk but he has no intent whatsoever to take his own life but rather is putting his life at risk to save the life of another. Putting your life at risk does not become suicide when your life is lost! If it did then all that risked and lost their lives in protecting our freedoms in the military would have been guilty of committing suicide. A person who drives an automobile in the Atlanta area puts his life at risk every day just to go to work and earn a living for his family. If he dies in an accident could we justly claim that he committed suicide because he knew the risk of driving in Atlanta but took that risk and lost his life? It is an absurd idea that one who puts his life at risk is committing suicide! All of life is a risk. And we take those risks every day. We board airplanes knowing that there is a distinct possibility that it may fall from the sky but we take the risk. Are all those who die in such crashes victims of suicide? I think not. Are we to think of our Lord as one who committed suicide instead of one who sacrificed his life that we might live? Christ deliberately died for us and could have saved himself from it but refused because his sacrifice was essential to our salvation. Is such a heroic rescue equivalent to the selfishness of one that just cannot take it anymore and wants out? While such selfishness can be understood among those who have suffered as Nelta has so ably illustrated concerning the suffering of her relative. The selfless act of losing ones life to save another and the willing suffering of Christ is not in the same category. There is a big difference between laying down your life for such a cause and taking your own life for selfish reasons, whether those selfish reasons are understandable or not. Let us be sensible if we are going to talk of these serious matters.
If one jumps into the water to save someone he expects that he will be able to save that person without losing his life even though he knows that he is facing the same danger that the one he is trying to save is facing. The fact that he has a choice and willingly and risk his life with the confident hope of saving another does not by any means make it a suicide. The person who is drowning cannot be guilty of suicide simply because he took the risk to enjoy a pleasant swim though anyone who swims knows that there is danger to ones life when they enter the water. Is the person drowning in the water committing suicide? And if one accepts the idea of assisted suicide should we assume that since he knew the risk and went swimming anyway that he is committing suicide and instead of risking our lives to save him should we make sure that he drowns?
It seems to me that if we are going to discuss an issue like this one it would be better to not confuse the issue with such nonsense claiming that those who risk their lives to save others are committing suicide!
I will have more to say later about this subject but for now I only want to encourage us to speak clearly instead of being absurd.
Your Brother in Christ,
E. Lee Saffold
-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000
This is an interesting post. I've put alot of thought into this subject over the years. I personally have come to consider the answer to be "yes...and no." Let me explain.For an unbeliever, suicide is an unforgiveable sin. Actually, the act of suicide isn't the sin, but the unbelief in the first place. So when the unbeliever dies, it is unforgiven sin.
Now for the believer, a different set of "rules" is in place. I personally know that it is possible for a born again believer to be in circumstances which seem so helpless that suicide is one of the considered solutions. Contrary to popular opinion, being saved does not automatically make one without problems. So, a Christian in this confused state may do something irreversable and end their own life. This is a tragedy, but I don't believe it is going to make the person lose their salvation.
The New Testament clearly states that believers can sin. But it does not say that salvation is LOST because of that sin. If that were the case, then there are alot of people who thought they were going to heaven in hell right now because they were in an automobile accident, had a sudden heart attack, or some other sudden death situation and were not able to confesss ALL sin that was in their lives.
My understanding of the "unforgiveable sin" passage is that the unforgiveable sin is unbelief to the extreme of the Sadduccees and Pharisees. This makes more sense to me than to spend my life searching for the one sin that can't be forgiven. If Jesus' death on the cross paid for it ALL when we believe, then the only unforgiveable thing is UNBELIEF. After a person dies in their sin and unbelief, then that sin is unforgiveable.
The basic problem I think is not seeing the difference between the believer and unbeliever. Each are under different rules.
-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000
Thanks, Dr. Jon...I agree.
-- Anonymous, September 21, 2000
Dr. Jon and Robin,I agree with you to a point...when a person dies in their unbelief, then that sin is unforgivable!
But if the only unforgivable thing is unbelief as you say, what about the following scriptures?
Heb 10:26-27 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Now this verse speaks of one who has received the knowledge of truth...they BELIEVED (and all that entails)...yet continually kept on sinning knowing better. They did not care if they sinned even though they knew better, and they did not repent.
Matt 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." This verse specifies no particular sin. The sin here is being confronted (several times) about a sin, not listening to those who are trying to bring you back from the error of your ways. Definitely a person who is unrepentant.
1 Cor 5:11-13 "But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'" Look, the church is judging a brother because of his sin (something very few Christians understand today btw). The church is told not to associate with him and to expel the wicked man. Do you believe if this man remained in the state Paul speaks of here that he would go to heaven upon his death? Absolutely NOT! Again sinning, knowing of the sin, and being unrepentant leads a person to hell.
It is also an attitude...do we have a repentant heart, or a stubborn rebellious heart? Are we trying, are we striving in our Christian walk to be obedient, to do what is right?
-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000
D. Lee,You are right... After reading through everything here... I was thinking of writing in and adding 'unacceptance' to 'unbelief'. One who strays away has 'un-accepted' the gift of Christ's sacrifice, so to speak. As I said in my very first post above, Christ's blood covers ALL of our sins AS LONG AS WE LAY CLAIM TO IT.
I think we are saying close to the same thing.... it is just that we may have a different understanding of when one has strayed so far away as to need to 're-accept' (confess/repent)? In other words, what does 'continue to sin' mean? We are all going to continue to sin, but are we going to 'continue in a sin'.... i.e., CHOOSE our sinful nature over the Spirit of Christ?
I'm in a real hurry here this morning.... more later maybe. Thanks again for your insights!
-- Anonymous, September 22, 2000
D. Lee -I hear what you are saying, but I think we may have a parting of the ways at one point. If taken to their conclusion, the verses of scripture you mention seem to point to the fact that a saved person can lose their salvation in toto. I reject that proposition completely. (There is more evidence of the forgiveness and reconciliatory nature of God than the casting out these verses appear to show.)
I think the terminology in these verses is important: "deliberately", "refuses to listen", "calls himself a brother but.." Attitude is everything. The person referred to in these passages is unrepentent and rebellious. This is totally different from a person who is honestly seeking, and does not want to offend God, but commits the sins which occur daily because of our imperfection. I also think that these passages (especially the last) really talks about someone who is not saved, but attends meetings ("calls himself a brother", not 'is a brother'). While I cannot exactly prove this from Scripture, I also have a hunch, based on what I can infer, that if a person really really really wants to reject the loving gift of salvation it could be possible. But it wouldn't be God's idea, but the person's. I have serious reservations about this idea, however, and I do not think it would hold water with closer scrutiny. That is because of what is in my next point.
We also have to understand the difference in judgment of believers and unbelievers. Remember, a believer is judged on works for reward, not for eternal life. The eternal life part is forever settled. If at any time a believer can for any reason lose his/her salvation then the finished work of Christ was for naught, and you claim the Bible to be untrue. That is a fact. There are more verses which state implicitly that our salvation is secure through the complete work of Christ. I have a serious problem with any teaching which contradicts what the Bible teaches about the security of the believer. If we do not have security in our salvation, then we are no better than Buddhists or Muslims or Jindus or anyone who has to work their way to salvation and has no assurance that they will ever attain it. If there is no security of the believer, what profit is there in being a Christian?
My premise above was not that of a rebellious person who was committing suicide as an act of defiance against the creator. I was referring to a believer who during a temporary period of confusion makes a serious mistake. I don't think that would be 'unforgivable' any more than any other sin.
-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000
Dr. Jon,I agree when you say; Attitude is everything. The person referred to in these passages is unrepentent and rebellious. This is totally different from a person who is honestly seeking, and does not want to offend God, but commits the sins which occur daily because of our imperfection. A person who commits sin as we all do, but is striving daily to please and obey God is a much different matter than one who is unrepentant and rebellious.
I do believe because of the above passages I have quoted that a person can loose their salvation. Consider these again:
Heb 10:26-27 "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."
This speaks of one who knows the truth, God does not mince words here as to the warning that if he deliberately keeps on sinning no sacrifice for sins is left, but a fearful judgment. The person has accepted the sacrifice of Christ, but if he deliberately keeps on sinning, there will be no sacrifice left.
Matt 18:15-17 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." This one is a BROTHER. He has sinned and refuses when confronted to repent. Jesus has told us to treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector. I know they were not too big on tax collectors, but to treat one like a pagan would mean not to even eat with such a one. Remember Paul confronting Peter when he did an about face when the Jews came down and wouldnt eat with the gentiles? Pagans were unclean to a Jew. Now back to the brother treated as such. If left in this unrepentant state, can one remain saved? NO!
You say; There is more evidence of the forgiveness and reconciliatory nature of God than the casting out these verses appear to show.
This measure that you give can not be the measure we use in determining whether or not a verse or doctrine should be followed. For example: we can not put all the verses about faith/belief on one side of the scale and on the other put the all the verses about repentance and then follow the heaviest side while saying there is more evidence of faith and belief than repentance sorepentance is not important or belief outweighs repentancesoI will ignore repentance. Being forgiven does not contradict the fact that if we choose by our actions, deeds, disobedience, rebelliousness, deliberate sinning, to trample under foot the Son of God, we will no longer be saved.
Lets read the rest of the Chapter
Heb 10:29-39 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant THAT SANCTIFIED HIM, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. REMEMBER THOSE EARLIER DAYS AFTER YOU HAD RECEIVED THE LIGHT, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, BECAUSE YOU KNEW THAT YOU YOURSELVES HAD BETTER AND LASTING POSSESSIONS. SO DO NOT THROW AWAY YOUR CONFIDENCE; it will be richly rewarded. YOU NEED TO PERSEVERE SO THAT WHEN YOU HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, YOU WILL RECEIVE WHAT HE HAS PROMISED. For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." BUT WE ARE NOT OF THOSE WHO SHRINK BACK AND ARE DESTROYED, but of those who believe and are saved.
Here we are told not to throw away our confidence. We are told not to shrink backif we do, we will be destroyed.
Jon, Can you give scripture to show that we are eternally saved no matter what WE DO? We know that nothing ELSE in all creation can separate us from the love of God! We do have security in our salvation, and confidence as long as WE do not trample under foot the Son of God by deliberately sinning after knowing better.
Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Wow! What a great confidence God has given us!
With this statement you have made me thinkI was referring to a believer who during a temporary period of confusion makes a serious mistake. I don't think that would be 'unforgivable' any more than any other sin. The only problem I see, is if I commit suicide, I can never repent.
-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000
D. Lee,I definitely weigh in with you that we can lose (give up) our salvation. We can choose to return to living out our sinful nature rather than the Spirit of Christ. The above last couple of posts come very near the 'once saved, always saved' argument that has been hashed over many, many times in the past.
As I said above, I think we are saying close to the same thing.... You have indicated that you don't believe you need to confess/repent every sin. I agree. You have said that there is a point where rebellion has been such that confession/repentance IS required to reclaim our saved state. I agree. What I'm not sure of is where the 'line' is between 'giving in to temptation while trying SO hard to live for Christ' and 'willful rebellion'. God knows!
-- Anonymous, September 23, 2000
Robin,I believe we too are saying close to the same thing. I DO believe though that we must confess/repent every time that we know we have sinned. I do not believe that if I forget a sin and so therefore do not repent that I am going to hell. Though I do pray to have all my sins forgiven.
And I agree with you that there is a line between giving into temptation while trying So hard to live for Christ and willful rebellion. But I dont believe that line is all that narrow or one that we absolutely can not see. For example, I know if I am willfully sinning. By this I mean that before doing something, I have known I shouldnt but yet I put the conviction about not doing it out of my mind, and then do it anyway. Isnt this willful sin? Have you ever thought If I dont think about it, or put it in the back of my mind that nagging conviction will go away? A scary thing one I am trying to control. I dont know, maybe that is just me. On the other hand there are times I sin when I know I REALLY tried not to but have failed. What really concerns me is have I gone too far? Have I messed up this time so bad that I have crossed the line in my sinning? I have sinned much. I believe there are people who believe they are Christian having deluded themselves, and will be shocked come judgement day thinking that they were doing right when they were doing wrong. Also doing wrong, knowing it, but fooling themselves into believing they are o.k. We blind ourselves to our faults sometimes.
Thank you for the discussion.
-- Anonymous, September 24, 2000
Hi,I would like to add to this. What about Martyrs? Are they not comitting suicide? Seems like most of them could live a long and happy life if they just give lip service to the zealots trying to kill them. Or it they don't fight in the first place. Where is the reward in fighting evil if you become it yourself? What about the crusades? Now THERE was a great undertaking. Or the inquisition? Glory be to God for all this goodness!?!? I think that any of you that KNOW what is right in the eyes of GOD are a little too full of your own self-importance!
-- Anonymous, December 11, 2000