I suppose this question is for Vicki, but my mail server is down, and there are several other people here who know lots about goats, so--help? The same goat I've had recent ear mite problems with has a very soft swelling under her jaw this morning. It looks very much like the picture of bottle jaw on a calf in my Merck. She doesn't look anemic. Even though she has been recently wormed, what should I do? My pharmacy tech goat friend worms 5 days with Safegard for hookworms, which I have never done with this goat. All the goats did have a Safegard block for over a week about 6 weeks ago. Wormed 12 days ago with Cydectin. Any help is appreciated.

-- Teresa (otgonz@bellsouth.net), September 10, 2000

Answers

Get a fecal sample to your vets to determine what your parasite problem is...ASAP. Not all parasites respond to the same wormers.I would also start giving this goat some nutritional supplement to build up his red blood cells. For sheep, I use nutridrench, not sure about goats. This year, with all the wet weather we had, for the first time...liverflukes. Only Valbazem works for that and it can't be given first 45 days of pregnancy.

-- Kate Henderson (sheeplady@catskill.net), September 10, 2000.

Some goats develop swollen and abscessed lymph nodes and the node under the jaw is a very common site. The node will feel warm and the doe may or may not be afebrile. If the abscess would rupture other goats can contact it so the drainge should be disposed of to prevent spreading. You can give penicillin ot tetracycline for an abscess.

-- Marci (ajourend@libby.org), September 10, 2000.

You know we have never had bottle jaw. We do have Nubians with very aggressive dew laps, milk goiter as kids, and even a salviary cyst. I do know that bottle jaw will not usually show up in a fecal sample as a huge worm burden since these are arrested larve (called encysted worms by others on my lists) I also know that folks worm very aggressively and for several days in a row to rid themselves of this. Safeguard blocks do nothing more than give your goats low levels of bensazoles over a period of days, not enough to kill the worms, only enough to let the worms have a taste of the wormer and build resistence. Cydectin at 1cc per 25 pounds worked great here on fecal, so much so that this will be our wormer of choice this December as the does start to kid. Also once the arrested larve in the jaw is dead, or abandons ship, wouldn't it take some time for the swelling to go away? Certainly someone knows this, if you do post this over on another board and get an answer, come back and tell us. Like the post above, you need to nutritionally support this doe. And yes if you think that this is an abscess, though these are usually firm (attached to the bone type feeling) you need to have an experienced breeder look at this or a vet. I would hit the herd with another dose orally of the Cydectin 1cc per 25 pounds, since if your worm burden was large, some of the worms would have gone into arrested developement, and the biggy here is you don't want these overwintering in your does while they are bred. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 10, 2000.

I dealt with bottle jaw this year with two sheep, did show up in fecals as parasites (stomach worms) I had been worming every month so was quite surprize. Anyway after worming ll times in 5 weeks with everything under the sun, we found a wormer they were not immune to. AFter alot of studing on the subject of wormers - the worst thing to do is underworm because they can built up immunity real quick. That is where I went wrong. I underweighted my sheep. If they have bottle jaw from parasite overload they are anemic, in sheep that is real white eyes which mine did. One vet said alot of people think they have bottle jaw when actually the animal had been biten, unforunately mine wasn't. Goats cantake an iron supplement called red cell, sheep can not because of copper. I gave my sheep adult iron pills. Good Luck I had a terrible summer with bottle jaw. I am suprised if you do though with it being the end of summer, parasites are usually dying off on their owe at this time of year.

-- Debbie Wolcott (bwolcott@cwis.net), September 10, 2000.

I have a Lamancha buck with bottlejaw right now. I also had a Nubian buck last year that had it. I had the Nubian to the vet & he wasn't showing many worms in his fecal. He was VERY anemic & before it was all done, he couldn't even stand for a few days. Still haven't figured out how he pulled through. I wormed him with Ivomec, Safeguard, Panacur, & Valbazen. I used one on the first day, a different one the next 3 days & then repeated that after a break of a couple of days. He was very thin & would hardly eat, but I finally got him turned around. It took quite some time for the swelling to go down also. I also had to get some good grain to get some weight back on him. For about a week, he laid down while eating because he didn't have the strength to stand. I'm not sure a fecal test would do much good. It didn't for mine. If caught right away, I'd just worm the goat with a variety of wormers to hit everything. Just don't use them all on the same day. I caught my Lamancha buck right away & the swelling has gone down just in a couple of days because it didn't get to such a severe level. Good luck & keep us posted.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), September 10, 2000.

Thanks. My vet is telling everyone to switch to Cydectin because he's seeing herds with resistant parasites. It's definitely not an abcess--very watery feeling. I had two boys last year, Nubian/Boer with salivary cysts, so I'm familiar with that. I can probably do the fecal exam at my husband's clinic, but it sounds like it won't matter much. I will take a closer look at her tomorrow, checking for anemia. Guess it wouldn't hurt to give everyone another dose of Cydectin.

I know it seems strange, but my cheap mongrel goats, especially the $30 doe with all the problems, have been a wonderful, inexpensive education. My vet is a sucker for goats, and hasn't charged for anything exept Cydectin, which he gave me at cost. It would have been terrible to have had these problems with "good" goats, and I likely would have spent more money on treatment with similar outcomes. I had another first tonight--silly goat jumped out of the truck and broke her rear leg. She's my favorite, and of course I feel bad, but I'll take care of her myself and hope she does OK. Lesson learned: don't leave the tailgate down on the truck. I am learning, and getting better, even though sometimes it seems I'll never get it. It's such a relief to be able to come here and ask. You guys are so kind and knowledgeable. Hopefully one day I'll be one of the ones who knows something helpful.

Another question for Vicki: Why nigerian dwarf? I noticed you recommended them to someone else here on the forum.

-- Teresa (otgonz@bellsouth.net), September 10, 2000.

The sheep forum on Breeders World has alot of infor right now on worming problems. Sheep people been having a very difficult time this year also. Can you give this cydectin to pregnant ewes. Isn't cydectinthe same as ivermectic? I am trying to get out of the same class of wormers. Ivomectin has a long list of other wormers in the same class so If you have an immunity to one you may to the others in that class. I found that very true for me in the panacur class which includes valbazen, safeguard which all three did nothing for my ewes. Actually tramisol was the only one that help but can't be given while breeding, which is my case right now.

-- Debbie Wolcott (bwolcott@cwis.net), September 11, 2000.

Hi Teresa, and yes I have recommended Nigerian Dwarfs. Mostly because they fall into so many catagories, pet, show, milk, mini's, exotic. So there would be lots of room for a small profitable homestead business. Since babies are expected to be nursed you don't have the management of the bigger breeds, yet once their kids are weaned you could eaisly milk them. Just like in all stock you would have to look for does from a larger teated family, and also make sure that they are from good milking stock. No matter what breed you do get into, it really is a matter of marketing them, and find your niche market. Mine of course is a Nubain market here in Texas, and being so close to the boarder, with the export of milkers, I couldn't afford to switch. But I do find the breed, ND's, intriguing, especially since they are so new you could really stamp your own personal look on them. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), September 11, 2000.