The Eldership is a black blot on the kingdom today. Of all the practices that have been added since the death of the apostles, this authority-seeking Ship heads the list. I dare say that when mere men take on authority not given them by Christ, all other traditions came about. These are practices that aid and abet this unauthorized authority.

1) The Church Building gave (gives) the Eldership a place from which to rule the other sheep in the kingdom.

2) Hiring a staff to work under this unauthorized Ship gives power to the Eldership to hire and fire those whorking FOR them, enhancing their power over the sheep.

3) Unauthorized maoney-gathering on the "Lord's Day" gives the Eldership the power (not God given) to say such things as, "We pay---we say." Give more than a tenth or you are robbing God." "If you disobey us you are disobeying God." "Continue to pay and obey where as you will be laying up treasures in heaven, and God will bless you."

Oh, do I hear FREEDOM IN CHRIST? We have freedom to add what we want to add because God didn't say NOT to do so.

REALLY?

Nelta

-- Anonymous, September 05, 2000

Answers

I believe it is easy to go to extremes witht he reasoning that because something is not inthe Bible, we cannot do it. Does the Bible tell us to breathe in our meetings?

I don't see Sunday offerings as 'unauthorized.' If saints want to give money of their own free will to be administered by church elders, i don't see a problem with that. Paul delivered money for the poor to church elders. On the other hand, if elders manipulate the Bible to put guilt on peple to pay money, that is a different story. elders, being teachers, should teach people to be generous. Before the Bible mentions elders, we see 7 men in Jerusalem who were trustworthy that were assigned the task of taking care of church finances. A lot of church finances these days, though goes to finance the religious machine- paying for the steeplehouse and programs. The early Christians gave a lot, but a lot of the focus was on providing for the poor.

If there are problems with eldership, I think one major probelm is men being appointed elders when the Holy Ghost has not made them overseers. Another is elders wanting to do all the work, or control it, rather than modeling the work. Elders are to be _examples_ to the flock (I Peter 5.) Some elders want to lord over the flock, instead of serving it. everything done has to be okayed by them first. Some suppress organic experession of the gifts that God has given.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2000

Nelta,

It seems that you have had a bad experience with some elders in the past... and it seems that you may be reading the Bible with prejudice eyes... and maybe you need to get in a church with biblical elders who sheherd as Christ did and are doing their God-given job.

I have never experienced elders as you describe them... if anything, the opposite... not sheperding or leading or standing up when needed... none the less, great men!

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2000

Marc, why is it when someone decides to question practices...thus comparing them with the N.T. that they are always accused of having been hurt in the past?

I have a question for you: Just what do the scriptures say the work of elders are? In the N.T. elders (older people) were appointed by the H.S. How does that compare with elders today? Doesn't it seem to you that those of the infant body had special gifts to lead the saints because of their special needs of not having the Holy scriptures (written) to guide them. Just something to think about.

Link,

On the matter of money, do we need a thus sayeth the Lord or can we simply add what we want to add?

And yes, in the movie "Jesus" He is shown with water being poured on Him. Sad thing is, those who see the movie and have no knowledge of scripture just assume that is Biblical.

Nelta

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2000

Nelta,

There are a lot of details which require us to have wisdom and to seek the leadership of the Holy Spirit. The Bible doesn't tell exactly how to collect money. There are some instructions for a particular offering, but not incredibly detailed. The Bible doesn't say how often to collect funds for every need in the church. Some things just have to be worked out in the local body. Do you have a command from scripture for every little detail to be able to do anything? Isn't that a kind of legalism. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

-- Anonymous, September 06, 2000

Nelta,

I don't have a lot of time... so I will be brief.

First, I was simply pointing out that I do not see the eldership as you explain (rulers, power hungry, ect.) I don't think (as I believe you were saying) this is the biblical intent, and in the churches I have been a part of, this is not the way it is.

Second, you said, "I have a question for you: Just what do the scriptures say the work of elders are? In the N.T. elders (older people) were appointed by the H.S. How does that compare with elders today?"

Let me respond... Briefly, scriptures say that the elders are to shepherd or look out for the spiritual aspect of the sheep and church.

Also, I want to point out that Paul told Timothy and Titus to "appoint elders" and that the first qualification for an elder is that they desire the office or position... this does not sound like they were appointed by the H.S. as you say.

How does that compare with elders today? I see no difference.

Yes, I believe that the first elders had special gifts to lead the infant church... does this mean that Pauls instructions to appoint elders are no longer for us? If so... what else do we through out of the Bible... what is for us today and what was only for the early church?

-- Anonymous, September 07, 2000

Marc,

I realize your last post was to Nelta, but I'd like to comment. This is aminor point, but I don't think the letters to Timothy tell him to appoint elders, but we infer that because Paul lists qualifications for elders, tells Timothy to lay hands on no man suddenly, and Titus was told to appoint elders and was given a list of qualificaitons very similar to the one given to Timothy.

Secondly, I don't see the fact that Paul mentions says that if any man desires to be a bishop, he desires a good thing, to indicate that elders were not appointed by the Holy Ghost. Paul said to the Ephesian elders, as recorded in Acts 20, that they should shepherd the church of God, over whom the Holy Ghost had made them overseers (bishops.)

In fact, a desire to be a bishop may well be something the Lord puts in the hearts of those the Holy Ghost makes overseers. I Peter 5 says that elders are to tend the flock willingly.

Acts 14 tells us that Paul and Barnabas appointed elders. It does not give us the details of how they selected them. If we look at the example of the Jerusalem church of chosing seven men to handle the distribution of food, the congregation chose seven men, and the apostles laid hands on these chosen men. Earlier than that, in Acts 1, the believers chose two men who met the list of qualifications Peter listed to be one of the 12. Then one of the two was chosen by lot. I've heard that in the Eastern Orthodox churches that their elders are chosen by the congregation, and the bishop lays hands on them. The Eastern Orthodox churches emphasize the patristic writings. This tradition may be very old.

If we study the precedent for elders in the Old Testament, we see that God told Moses to call together elders from among the people, and God put the Spirit that was upon Moses upon them as well. These appointed elders were already elders before they were appointed.

It may be that Paul and Barnabas appointed elders taking into account the wisdom in the church collectively, seeing who other people percieve the Lord calling as elders in the church. They may have appointed as elders those who were showing evidence in their lives of being made overseers in the body.

I used to be a on an email list of a brother who is a retired Greek and Latin professor. He considers his Hebrew to be intermediate, but I think he is rather modest from others comments on his Hebrew. He related some of his interactions with Bible-believing brothers in Greece. One of the Greek words for 'appointing' or 'ordaining' elders in Greek relates to the idea of pointing out. They felt the congregation should point out elders.

He suggested another possibility. The Spirit can point out leaders through prophecy. Paul and Barnabas were sent out on a mission after the Spirit spoke. Timoty also had a gift in him given through prohpecy with the laying on of hands of the elders.

If Paul could say that the Holy Spirit had made the Ephesian elders overseers of the flock, he had to have some evidence to know that the Spirit had done this. He may have heard the Holy Spirit say this, either himself or through others, or have perceived this call in some other way.

Link

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000

Link,

When I said "I want to point out that Paul told Timothy and Titus to "appoint elders" and that the first qualification for an elder is that they desire the office or position... this does not sound like they were appointed by the H.S. as you say" I was refering to the impresion I received from Nelta that the Holy Spirit appointed the men in some special way for the sole purpose of helping the early church and that this is no longer so today.

I agree that the Holy Spirit must get men to desire the office and in this sense calls or appoints them. And in cases where we see inadiquate elders, perhaps it is because they were not called or appointed by the Holy Spirit?

So I guess my point is that yes the Holy spirit is involved... but it still seems that men do the literal appointing to office and elders are still biblical today.

I hope this makes sense... busy week:)

-- Anonymous, September 08, 2000

Maybe some elders are wrongly chosen because they do not rule their children well- either don't have them under control, or are too authoratarian-provoking them to wrath. That part about having one's household in order is probably one of the most stringent requirements in this day and time.

How often does it happen that someone is appointed as elder, and then some time later, soemthing really bad happens with his kids?

-- Anonymous, September 10, 2000