I have a couple of guys in my congregation that consistently offer prayers to Jesus.

I have a problem with this......1) Scripturally....I never see prayers being offered to Jesus, and in fact, in the model prayer....Jesus said to offer prayers to the Father in His name; 2) Historically I know that when the church began to offer prayers to Jesus (as opposed to the Father)....it was the beginning that eventually led to Mariolatry and offering prayers to Mary.

I've tried some subtle ways to correct these guys....and for a while they will stop....but then last night one of the guys popped up and did it again.

My questions to the peanut gallery are......1) Should it bother me that much? 2) Is there any scriptural grounds to support prayers offered to Jesus? 3) Should I just let it slide....or become a little more direct in correcting the situation (if it needs correcting)??

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, August 28, 2000

Answers

Link.....

I wouldn't call what Stephen did...."praying." He SAW Jesus and communicated his desires.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

John....

If I was looking for comfort....I got none from your post.

Your post lacks more scriptural authority than any I've ever seen you do (which is a compliment...whether you want to acknowledge it or not).

I want the specific (chapter and verse) where Jesus said "pray to Him.."

How Jesus relates to children is one thing (take note of the fact that He said "their angel always beholds the face of the Father")....and how we relate to Him as grown ups....is obviously two different things.

As per Scriptural authority.....it is real hard to get beyond...."And when you pray...pray in this mannerr....."Our Father....."

Your posts also fails to address the fact that historically.....the church's move away from prayers to the Father....and prayers to Jesus.....was the beginning of a move that eventually led to Mariolatry.

It is completely out of context to suggest that Stephen's vision of Jesus was a prayer.

I want a solid biblical example of "a prayer offered to Jesus"....specifically after His ascension....hopefully by one of the apostles.

The "I and the Father" are one thing.....begs the question.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

And one more thing.....

We are not talking our personal communication to God here.....we are talking about....public, corporate prayers....thus the issue of "Jesus is my friend".....is irrelevant.

John....as you well know.....the early church took this literally as all prayers in the Didache.....are addressed to the Father....which goes to historically prove....that the move to prayers to Jesus was of late origin.....as was Mariolatry.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

OK....one more thing! :)

I'm not talking heresy here. I'm simply talking, biblical accuracy....and biblical authority....with the understanding that moves away from the faith....often historically....began very small....in what appears to be "minor issues."

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

John......

Concerning John 14:14....I'm not sure the argument that Jesus was speaking to the 12 here can just be discarded...in light of vs. 16 which is the basis for the direct baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles.

However, that being said.....it is food for thought. Thanks!

Concerning the statement of Jesus on the cross.....I don't see that as a prayer.

Concerning the "Jesus to Mariolatry" statement about it being "a far cry".....didn't I say that??

However, almost to the man, historians have cited the beginning (or seedbed) of Mariloatry as the shift in the prayers of the early church from prayers addressed to the Father....to prayers addressed to the Son.

Granted....it's a far cry. However, does not all false doctrine, for the most part, start out as a far cry??

The evolution of Mariolatry goes like this.....God is too angry to talk to us....so talk to the Son. This developed into....."Better yet.....talk to Mary, who will talk to Jesus, who will talk to God....because every good Jewish boy listens to his mother." This developed even further to....."Talk to a saint, who will talk to Mary, who will talk to Jesus, who will talk to God."

That is what I meant by the statement.....it was the seedbed of Mariolatry.....I did not say it was Mariolatry.

While you gave me food for thought on the one verse.....it is abundantly clear....that the norm of Scripture....and the norm of the early church well into the second century (as cited in the Dicache).....was prayers offered to God the Father in the name of (by the authority of) Jesus. (Which is exactly how Jesus taught us to pray.)

The norm of Scripture makes me more comfortable.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Darrell.....

Been there....done that!!

But you are right.....concerning....the continued model, example, and teaching.

-- Anonymous, August 30, 2000

I agree with Robin....I think they are just nervous.

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

Sorry for the double post. I had some problems accessing the server.

Btw, on Montanists, one scholarly source said to carefully consider what you read about Montanists, since the only writings about them are written by their opponents. The Montanists lived in a time when it was common for there were city bishops over presbyteries, and liturigcal meetings. they were against the institutionalization of the church. The pervious generation, between the apostles and the Montanists, knew of prophets, true and false, traveling around and encouraging churches. Over time, most of the church ministry came to be centered in a clergy group- the priests, with some minsitry being given to deavons. The Montanists were against institutionalization, and so many of the bishops of course opposed their views.

Tertullian wrote a lot of writings which are still studied by Christians to this day. He would probably be called 'St. Tertullian' if it were not for the fact that he joined with the Montanists. Tertullian is probably one of the patyristic writers that many RM people really like. If I remember correctly, he believed that Mary was not a life-long virgin, and did not believe in infant baptism.

What exactly was the Montanist heresy? I think that many Christians who opposed it opposed it as a 'heresy' because they felt it caused division- the original meaning of heresy. I haven't read any patristic writings accusing them of being heretics because they believed in gifts of the Spirit being in operation. There are many writings from 'orthodox' saints in the early centuries which make references to various gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy.

So what was the big contraversy about Monstanism about? It is said that the bishop of Rome actually approved the Montanist 'revivals' until he was persuaded otherwise by someone speaking against it. I've read that Augustine did not believe in miracles occuring in his day when he was younger, and even wrote words to that effect. However, in his later years he changed his mind after being witness to a number of people who were healed when, I've read, Montanist revivals came through the area.

I wonder how sharp the distinctions between Montanists and the mainline congregations were at this time.

The main chareges I've read against Montanus is that he and his prophetesses were prohpesying such things as the New Jerusalem being set up in Phrygia. The argument by some against him seemed to be that the prophecies were not from the Holy Spirit.

On the one hand I've read that Montanists were against going to the shows and such things. But one charge against some later Montanists were that they wore make-up, gold, and ministered for money.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Oops, sorry. I had two screens up at the same time,a nd posted the last message to the wrong one.

Danny,

I don't have a Bible on me, but didn't Stephen pray to Jesus when he was being stoned. Also, there is a song addressed to the Lammb in Revelation. The general gist of Jesus teaching is praying to the Father in His name. But there is a little bit of Biblical justification for praying to Jesus.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Danny,

I will offer a quick responce having not studied this lately but in the past.

First, I do not see anywhere that tells us to pray to Jesus, does that mean we should not?

Second, when the disciples wanted Jesus to teach them to pray (what we call the Lord's Prayer... more like the disciples prayer) as you already mentioned, Jesus told them to pray to the Father in Heaven.

Third, Jesus is said to be our mediator... a mediator is the "go between" not the one recieving the prayers. Jesus also said that whatever we ask in "His" name will be given. Notice He didn't say to pray "to" HIm but "through" Him.

It is my belief that we should pray "to" the Father and "through" Jesus. And with that I feel that we should close our prayer "in the name of Jesus", not just as so many do "in His name" or something like that... SAY THE NAME OF JESUS... it is a beautiful name!

As far as what to say to those who are praying this way... I' m not sure... it probably depends upon your relationship to them and their personality. Personally, I would probably preach a sermon on this subject... it is less intimidating or does not seem like an attack upon them.

I just had an after thought... praying to Jesus is probably most common among children and we have seen this and so because of the above reasons, we have taught our children to pray to the Father... though I must admit that sometimes in their prayer they probably address Jesus... and I may even sometimes (more in conversation)... after all isn't Jesus suposed to be our best friend... how can this be if we don't talk?

I hope I helped more than confussed:)

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Marc;

I see nothing wrong with praying to Jesus, for several reasons.

1. As you pointed out, Jesus is supposed to be a friend and a brother. He is called our elder brother in the Scriptures, and he himself said that we were no longer his servants, but his friends. That this was not meant for the disciples alone is evident as he said "greater love has no man than this: that he lay down his life for his friends." If one argues he was only meaning his disciples here, one must also conclude he only died for those twelve men. And as Marc pointed out, how can you be a friend with someone without communicating with them?
2. Prayer is simply speaking to God. Yes, Stephen saw Jesus and was communicating his desire to Jesus. So how is this any different than praying, since Jesus is in fact God?
3. Jesus also in his discourse to the disciples told them that they could pray anything in His name and it would be done. Now of course we apply this to ourselves and we say, "see, Jesus wants us to pray 'in Jesus name.'" Yet Jesus did in fact say to pray TO him. He also said that we could ask HIM anything, and it would be done. I fail to see any distinction there that would indicate that those particular words were only meant for the twelve. And since Jesus is in fact God, it logically follows. Just as Jesus told the disciples, "he who has seen me has seen the Father," I believe he is indicating to them here that "he who prays to me prays to the Father."
4. Marc, you wrote, "praying to Jesus is probably most common among children." AMEN! As it is written: "Out of the mouth of babes ..." Did not Jesus say, "let the little children come to ME, and do not forbid them, for such is the kingdom of God"? And, "Unless you become like little children, you shall not see the Kingdom of God"?

With regard to the formulaic, "In Jesus name ..." what are we actually saying here? Technically, we are putting a stamp of authority on our petition. Just as the cop coming to the door says, "in the name of the Law."

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Danny;

Thank you for your compliment!

As for "scriptural authority", I didn't quote the exact chapter and verse because I assumed that the verses I was alluding to were common knowledge. But ok ... I see these two verses as parallel: In John 16:26 it says "You will ask the Father in my name ..." and in John 14:14 it says "you may ask ME for anything in my name." I do not see anywhere where it says "This is meant only for the Twelve" and "This is meant for the church." And I don't think that "I and my Father are one" (although I didn't bring up that verse!) begs the question at all; in fact, I think it is entirely the point of the entire passage. Verses 9-11 of chapter 14 establish this. Also verse one, which says, "You trust in God, trust also in me."

As for "It is completely out of context to suggest that Stephen's vision of Jesus was a prayer," I don't think so at all. Especially when you parallel that verse with Jesus' own statement on the cross where he said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." That was a prayer! And here we have Stephen saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Same thing!

Also, I think it is a far cry from worshipping Jesus Christ to worshipping Mary. The former we are told to do in scripture! We are to worship Him as we do the Father, trust Him as we do the Father, believe in Him as we do the Father, honor Him as we do the Father, praise Him as we do the Father ... but not to pray to him? That just doesn't logically follow.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

You asked for scriptural grounds. Well there you have it. It may not be words straight from an apostles mouth, but it is grounds none-the- less. I see nothing wrong with it personally, and I'm not sure that any big deal ought to be made of it. Personally, I think it should be rather natural to talk to Jesus.

-- Anonymous, August 29, 2000

Danny --

I too have problems when I hear people pray to Jesus rather than the Father ... for many of the same reasons listed above. I also have trouble when people end their prayers without "somehow" mentioning the name of Jesus, i.e. "In Jesus name, amen." Many people today end their prayers with a simple "amen." I don't want prayers to become formulas, though.

re: the men in your congregation praying "to" Jesus. Personally, I wouldn't make a big thing out of it. You are best to continue to teach them "the better way." Teaching in your preaching, by example when you pray, etc., might have more impact. Maybe a series of lessons on prayer that would include "who to and who through." I did this on Wednesdays at my last congregation. I also taught a bit on the use (or mis-use) of "prayer language." You know, the "thee's" and "arts" and other such language we find in the KJV and that many people use when talking to God ... but don't use any other time.

Let me know how it goes.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, August 30, 2000

Another thing that bothers me is excessive repetitiveness. You know, when people pray like this: "Lord, we come before you, Lord, to ask you, Lord, for your blessings, Lord, on our undertaking, Lord ..."

Can you imagine talking to anyone else in this manner?

Does this fall under the category of "vain repetition" Jesus mentioned?

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

John,

I am familar with that kind of prayer... and it bothers me too. But, I believe it just comes from a nervousness about praying 'out loud' and definitely don't believe it falls into the category of 'vain repetitions'. At least, they are praying... which is more than many people do. :-)

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

Perhaps some are nervous and perhaps in some cases it is just nice to say and hear the name of the Lord.

They say that when we talk to people we are to use their names because people like to hear their names when we talk to them.

Don't you think that the Lord likes to hear us speak His name when we talk to Him?

-- Anonymous, August 31, 2000

I had to look above at those posts about nervousness and had to add my two cents.

Actually, I think some of our horrendous verbal faux paus' while praying in public is ingrained from what we had always heard. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery...but...

Where I live are many charismatic type congregations. No comment about that, but I listen, and sense that some of what is said is said really out of familiarity and local tradition. See if this sounds familiar:

"We ask, Father God, for you, Father God, to do this, Father God, we believe it, Father God..."

Is that how people speak? Nope. That is *ecclesiastical talk*. What I get from the Gospels is that Jesus really wanted everyone to cut the ecclesiastical language and *just talk to God like a real person*. Can you imagine anyone asking their mother: "I ask, Mother, that you, Mother, would please, Mother, cook me, Mother, a good breakfast, Mother, because I need food, Mother of mine." Of course not. My guess is that she would be rather annoyed if you did talk to her like that.

Sorry I got off subject there. Its just a pet peave. BTW...my solution to nervousness in public prayer? WRITE IT OUT FIRST. Its common sense public speaking. It is not "more spiritual" to rattle something off the top of your head. To me it is more honoring to God to KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY than to stammer, hem and haw in public. Especially in a church service. I have notes in the pulpit for the corporate prayer. I am writing down prayer requests as they are given so I can ask God for them correctly. Nothing left to memory.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Jon: That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

John and Jon,

I was not talking about severe repetition as you were... only saying the name of the Lord more than once in a prayer. And yes I would somewhat agree that we tend to follow and learn from others and repetitous prayers are a tradition to some.

However, I would rather have people repeat the Lord's name several times than say the exact same prayer every time... I have known people that do that... and I do mean EXACT!

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

On canned prayers,

How many of you feel that repeating a memorized prayer is a 'vain repetition?' I don't think it necessarily is. I think it is a good thing to repeat the Lord's prayer, but we should say it from our heart, not just 'repeat 9 Our Father's' as some kind of mantra to get more favor from God than saying it one time. Notice Jesus said that the heathen did vain repetitious and thought they would be heard _for their much speaking._

Aren't a lot of songs prayers? The Jews would sing Psalms, and Jesus probably did the same. I think the syngagogue of Jesus day had memorized prayers. I think it is a good thing to pray Psalms and prayers from the scritpures to the Lord, even if they are already written out.

But I think there is definitely a good place for spontanious prayer as well.

-- Anonymous, September 01, 2000

Danny,

Here are some verses that really relate to the issue of praying to the Father to put some scripture to your concern,

John 16:23-27 23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. 25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Notice they would ask Jesus nothing, but would ask the Father in His name.

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

Ah, but Link, consider John 14:14 where it says "you may ask ME for anything in my name."

-- Anonymous, September 04, 2000

cts 8:24

24. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

John 14:6-7

6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Rev 5:8

8. And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (KJV)

Now I Start my Prayers Father God, I may Also speak with Jesus. Unless we Wrestle with the Scriptures its easy to see that Prayers are for Jesus.

Col 1:16

16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)

-- Anonymous, September 18, 2000