Recent posts have been debating vegetarianism. I am a vegetarian for ethical reasons, primarily based on the pratices of feed lots, etc. I think that anyone who can raise and butcher their own animals is doing the humane thing, I just can't. I alsohave a strong belief that you can't be a true enviromentalist and eat factory raised meat. The 16 pounds of grain theat it takes to produce 1 pound of flesh can feed 32 people. So, I have had no health problems. I do eat dairy and eggs as I have my own cow, goats and chickens. I have been lucky never to have had a live bull calf and I delude myself that my bucks all go to pet homes ( I really do think I have had good luck with the whethers, and the bucks are purebreds so I belive they get a good life as herd sires) I have eaten the wrong diet of course, my schedule sends me to CUlvers for french fries or onion rings on the way to work, etd. Mac and cheese is a staple. There are many soy products that imitate meat and Boca Burgers are swell, but these things are expensive and I save them as a treat. I used dried TVP in sloppy joes, chili and spaghetti sauce with no noticable change in flavor. Anyway, I guess I am interested in how other folks veiw their diets, any good tips from other veggies and more intelligent conversation on the subject. I love this time of year, grilled veggie sandwiches are my favorite!

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), August 10, 2000

Answers

About meatless-meats: I have found the Boca Burgers and several other of the frozen meatless-meats to be really gross! (Personal opinion, of course.) But there is a company called Morningstar Farms that makes a ton of different meatless-meats, and those are a staple in our house. They make sausage patties & links, bacon, chicken patties, hamburger patties, and ground "beef". Even hotdogs! We have been able to find these products in the frozen foods section of many different grocery stores, in several different states. Not health food stores, but regular grocery stores. These products are so meat-like that some hard-core vegetarians won't even eat them! But my family finds them wonderfully tasty and convenient, and several of our friends who do eat real meat have said that they could easily eat these instead.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 10, 2000.

I would be willing to fix some vegetarian dishes if I had some good recipes. I can't imagine giving up meat entirely & I don't even know what TVP is. It's really a personal choice, I've been a meat eater my whole life & I haven't had any health problems either. My grandparents raised chickens & pigs, my mom said they ate eggs, bacon, & sausage everyday of their 90 healthy years. My brother-in- law, on the other hand, is an overweight vegetarian who just spent time in the hosptial for an electrolyte imbalance. I must say though, that I believe my grandparents health was probably due to eating their own raised food rather than meat from a factory.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), August 10, 2000.

We're not vegitarians but somewhere between. I like my pound of flesh now and then and will soon be raising some of our own meat.

As to veggie burgers. My wife bought this stuff a while back, some kind of soy product that was supposed to be meatlike. Whew! After the first meal they were thereafter called fart burgers. I had to stand facing upwind in a strong breeze to put up with myself!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), August 11, 2000.

I am a recovered vegetarian :-) No seriously, I was raised a veggie and married a meat eater. That was 11 years ago and I'm still figuring out how to cook the stuff. Now that we raise our own I eat it and fix it a few times a week, but having been raised meatless I still like meatless better than meat. I (almost) never order meat in restrants because you never know where it came from (sometimes when you need a bacon-double-cheeseburger, you just dont care). As far as veggie recipies, growing up in the days before tofu and TVP (texturized vegetable protien) we just winged it. Like lasagna, lots of mexican food, everything we normally ate but without the meat. I think its kind of strange to eat "fake meat".

-- Julie (julieamc@excite.com), August 11, 2000.

This is a quote from Thomas Jefferson but it also applies to me. Although I eat meat, I have done so as a condiment to my vegetables.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 11, 2000.

(If this is a redundent posting, ignore it. I had trouble posting earlier.) I am a vegetarian, my younger sis is a omnivore, the youngest sis is a hardcore vegan (no animal nothing, not even honey), and Mom is a vegetarian allegic to wheat. Try feeding us on the holidays! My best suggestion to other vegs (and others in general) is try your local (or not so local) Chinese grocery store. Worth a trip, let me assure you. I have found unbelievable bargains on everything from spices (mere pennies compared to commercially available brands, and fresher, too), teas, dried mushrooms ($7 lbs for dried shitake - if you're lucky, the supermarket will sell you about an ounce or two for $7), and medicinal herbs (because of the lanquage barrier, most are only labled in english with their botanical names, so know what you want or take a book). Besides that there is a world of food that you never even thought about in ethnic food stores, so taste away (try the dried, spiced bean curd - tofu - for a jerky-like snack.)

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 11, 2000.

John, I would bet you're allergic to soy!!! I find that many people view a vegetarian meal to be a plate of potatos, a vegetable, and a big empty space where the meat should be. Not so. I've found it to open up a whole new world in cuisine. I was raised on fish sticks, hot dogs and canned corn. My mother didn't enjoy cooking. She worked outside the home, and many times we kids fed ourselves. I love food, and love to cook. I'm very fortunate to have a job that I love. I've been at this store for 3 years. I was hired to provide nutritional advise, help with choosing and understanding herbs, vitamins, supplements, etc. I took over the deli 2 years ago, and spend most of my work day cooking and doing an incredible juggling act of helping customers, placing orders and answering the phone. We are the only place in our area where a vegan can find 10 entrees, and a dozen desserts to choose from, every day. We feed hundreds of vegetarians a week. Don't let anyone tell you that a plant-based diet isn't healthier than a meat-based diet. I became a vegetarian at the age of 12, for ethical reasons. (I'm 42 now) I did eat meat for a few years, while married to a meat eater. I felt bad about doing it, and I am more secure in myself now, and will never comprimise my beliefs to be "accepted". (sp?) My feelings about being overweight are simple - if I eat too much, I will be overweight. I don't care if it's vegetarian or not. It can be all the "right" foods, but if I eat too much, I'm going to be overweight. There are a lot of people out there trying to make a buck off of those desperate to lose weight. First comes the book, then comes the rest of the miracle formula in a bottle. It's all about money, folks, not good health. Dianne, your point about the offspring of your animals raises a serious moral question for me. I have only cats and dogs, but dream of having farm animals. I am O.K. with chickens and eggs, but when the time comes, I don't know if I'll be able to do the breeding and culling just so I can have milk. Thank goodness I like soymilk! I would be very happy to share recipes with anyone interested. I would recommend the books by John Robbins - Diet For A New America, and May All Be Fed. There is an old story about a man who lived a long and worthy life. When he died, the Lord said to him, "Come, I will show you hell." He was taken to a room where a group of people sat around a huge pot of stew. Each held a spoon that reached the pot, but had a handle so long it couldn't be used to reach his or her mouh. Everyone was famished and desperate: the suffering was terrible. Then the Lord said, "Come, I will show you heaven." They came to another room. To the man's surprise, it seemed identical to the first room - a group of people sat around a huge pot of stew, and each held the same long-handled spoon. But here everyone was nourished and happy, and the room was full of joy and laughter. "I don't understand," said the man. "Everything seems to be the same, yet they are so happy here, and they were so miserable in the other place. What is going on?" The Lord smiled. "Ah, but don't you see? Here they have learned to feed one another." Yes, it takes sixteen pounds of grain to produce one pound of beef. We have a lot to learn. Thanks for the topic.

-- Cathy Horn (hrnofplnty@webtv.net), August 11, 2000.

Re: how vegetarians raise farm animals (the breeding & culling)... I keep one goat for milk, and most of that milk goes to feed orphaned animals of all types. I don't have her bred every year. Any babies (be they chicks, goats, whatever) either stay here or go to pet homes, and I have a contract that the animal will not be killed, sold, bred, etc. If the animal ever leaves the home, it MUST be returned to this farm. I have had perfect compliance thus far. As for culling...we only use the term jokingly. My farm is full of other peoples' culls! Because we are not production-minded (no insult meant) we have no problem keeping animals who are not providing anything. I gather eggs to keep the bird populations from getting out of hand, and everyone else is either neutered or very closely supervised. We cull animals who are suffering, and very occassionally if we have someone who is unmanageably aggressive. It's euthanasia more than culling, I guess.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 11, 2000.

This is a great topic. Thanks for starting it. My two favorite vegetarian cookbooks are Lean, Lucious and Meatless by Hinman/Snyder and any of the Moosewood Restaurant cookbooks. Good solid food that happens to not have any meat in it. I raise chickens (for eggs) and recently got a pygmy goat that may be a pet more than a milk producer. I couldn't eat any of them. I like your idea of using a contract when selling offspring to ensure they are pets or come back to you if they don't work out. The animal shelter I work at has the same return policy to keep adopted pets from going to the pound if they don't work out.

I was raised in a meat eating family but became a vegetarian in college. On rare occasions I may eat a fajita or burger, but I'd rather not. I know where meat comes from and figure I am being hypocritical if I'm willing to eat it but not willing to butcher my own. Poultry is not an issue - I gave that up 20 years ago after getting food poisoning from my former in-laws Christmas turkey! Besides, poultry has legs and wings and other body parts that look like what they came from. Sorry, just my opinion.

-- txcountry girl (nancyk@icsi.net), August 11, 2000.

I am vegetarian from a family of near carnivores. In my family we are predominately type A blood types and the way every one but myself eats is in direct opposition to the blood type diet. They all have health problems as well. two of my sisters have IBS and the other one is about 50 pounds overweight. My dad has diabetes and high blood pressure and thinks if there is no meat it ain't a meal.My mom's AB and she's okay except for high cholesterol and my brother is AB and he's also got colitis and possibly Chrone's disease. I am really sold on the "Eat Right For your Type" diet. Bet ya couldn't have guessed that one!

To further advance my arguement, I have several good friends that are Type O and were fat vegetarians. Too much grain and not enough protein for them. One of them married a carnivore and started losing weight when she started eating meat.

Philosophically, I am a vegetarian because I don't think we should eat what we can't kill. Also, the entire factory farming of meat is scary. Not that vegetable factory farming is without horror, but it's less horrifying.

I have a great recipe for veggie burgers based on oatmeal that I will post here for y'all later. It puts those boca burgers to shame.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 11, 2000.

I am an omnivore myself, but try to eat free-range meat whenever possible. I've been thinking of raising a pig just so I know where my pork came from. As for vegie burgers of any sort, like soy milk or Postum or any other "substitute" food or beverage, if you ask it to be a meat (or milk or coffee, etc) it will fail. However, if you taste it as a thing on its own, with a flavour and texture of its own, most of these products are quite tasty. Let them be who they are, and they're just fine.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), August 11, 2000.

Dianne, please give us your grilled veggie sandwich ideas. I would appreciate any veggie sandwich ideas,especially raw, from any of my Countryside friends. HELP! Thanks.

-- Sandy (smd2@netzero.net), August 11, 2000.

I decided a while back that I like meat and will eat it, but I will do my best to do so responsibly. Most of my meat I either raise myself or buy from someone who raises (and kills) the animals the way I would. I like some tofu and some other soy products, but in the past year, I have learned that about three-quarters of the soy raised in this country is genetically-engineered to be resistant to the effects of Round-Up, an herbicide. They made it that way so they could dump even more poison on the plants, killing everything else, and the soy would still grow and produce. I have a little problem with eating something that has been steeped in herbicide. My two cents.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), August 11, 2000.

Here's the recipe for veggie burgers:

2 cups oatmeal 1 cup either onion or vegetable soup mix (no MSG powdered) 1 cup finely diced mushrooms 2 eggs Add water slowly so that the mix sticks together and make patties. Then fry in a small amount of oil of your choice (I like olive oil or sesame) until brown.

This is just too loose of a mix to do on a grill alone. But it's super! I also like using portabello shrooms. You can also use a falafel mix instead of the soup mix for a different taste. Enjoy!

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 11, 2000.

Snoozy-if you decide to raise pigs and want to raise them organically try to find unmedicated feed for them.We had a hard time finding it in our area but with alot of searching we finally did!

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), August 11, 2000.

As my nieces have become more and more into animal rights and embraced the vegetarian lifestyle, I have been supportive of their right to choose. But, I am going to share the serious caution I have preached to them, - especially since one of them is leaning towards total vegan.

A truly informed vegetarian knows that your body will slowly run out of a vitamin that humans get only from animal products B12.

To quote an article "Dementia Without a Cause" in Discover magazine, Feb. 2000 issue. "A diet free of animal protein can be healthful and safe, but it should be supplemented periodically with vitamin B12, by mouth or by injection."

Dr. Leslie Bernstein writes of a patient brought to him. 80 years old, could run 3 miles a day, tanned, healthy. He suddenly manifested all the signs of "rapidly progressing dementia of unknown origin" - had lost bladder and bowel control, could barely stand and was completely disoriented.

Every singel test came back normal, yet his condition continued to worsen. The article says, "I was worried. The longer the cause remained a mystery, the slimmer the chances of a full recovery. ""The diagnosis is in the history 90 percent of the time,"" I thought ""What are we missing?""

""Holy smoke,"" I thought, ""I am an idiot! The man's been a vegetarian for 38 years. No meat. No fish. No eggs. No milk. He hasn't had any animal protein in four decades. He has to be B12 deficient!""

They gave him an injection of 1000 micrograms of vitamin B12. By the following morning, he could sit without help, and within 48 hours, his bladder and bowel control had returned. By the end of the week he could play simple card games, read his get well cards, and talk on the phone.

Four decades of strict vegetarianism had been his undoing. Delay in diagnosies and treatment had been disastrous.

It is a very sobering thought. If you are eating vegetarian, read up on B12 and think long term and what you intend to do to prevent this from happening to you.

I tore the article out of the magazine(I know, the doctor office magazine police will get me.)because I don't expect anyone to take my word for this. I will send copies to anyone who sends me a SASE. Send to SHEEP, 49800 TR 58, Lewisville, OH 43754 , I'll get it.

-- homestead2 (homestead@monroecty.net), August 11, 2000.

Alfalfa and comfrey both contain B-12.

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), August 11, 2000.

Brewer's yeast,sea vegetables and tempeh also contain B12

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), August 11, 2000.

Brewer's yeast is wonderful on popcorn. It also adds "zip" to lots of other foods. You can use it on just about anything you would use salt on. It is not salty itself. Just tangy and zippy.

-- Shannon (Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary) (gratacres@aol.com), August 12, 2000.

Seems like a lot of folks get vegetarian and vegan mixed up. Not to be snotty or anything but just to clarify, a vegan eats NO animal products, a vegetarian doesn't eat flesh. There are some distinctions within vegetarian but I think for discussions sake that this differentiation will do. Thanks!

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 12, 2000.

How incredibly timely! Just two weeks ago I started experimenting with a vegetarian diet. I think I've had meat about 3 or 4 times in the past two weeks. My two cents - I feel better and more energetic than I have in years! I wouldn't believe it if I wasn't feeling it myself.

Personally - my favorite is falafel. It's a middle eastern mix made from ground chickpeas (garbanzos) and spices. Just add water, make a ball or a patty and fry. MUCH better than fake meat.

-- Deborah (ActuaryMom@hotmail.com), August 13, 2000.

Howdy from NM. Glad the issue came up on vegetarianism. It's been a random thought of mine that I'd sure like to see more vegetarian recipes in COUNTRYSIDE; geez, does everyone make sausage? I'm not a hard-core vegetarian, just on the 'south side' of it. When my body says "MEAT", I know I need a burger or something. I have no qualms about eating eggs or milk (in moderation), this doesn't harm the animal. And, raising one's own food, you KNOW what goes into it. Since I've just hit menopause, I've had my own personal wake-up call and am adding more soy and veggies to my diet, much less meat. I've been toying with this all my adult life. I feel great. My body doesn't feel so sluggish and heavy. Taking an herbal tincture for hotflashes that's really working for me. I am the kind of farmer/rancher people laugh at and don't take too seriously: all my chickens will live on the 'Old Chicken Farm'. They're my friends & I don't eat my friends. It's rather sobering to look at a fryer and see these were legs, these were wings, this thing was alive... This is a great little Q&A forum, I just discovered it today. It may do some serious damage to my work schedule! dh

-- debra haden (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), August 15, 2000.

I have chosen to be meat free-as most who have been on this forum know --as I have said before & why! I lost my immune system because of chemicals! I was a cosmetologist & because of the use of chemicals in my work & in the food/ & how chemicals are used for everything I lost my immune system! The help through natural healthcare recommended I quit eating meat/ many years ago & I did! I then found real enjoyment in my food. I now eat & enjoy what I eat instead of eating because it was time to eat or I was hungry! I was raised on meat & potatoes--now I have found the real joy in food! There are many web pages that have vegetarain recipes on them I think I have posted most of them before but if anyone wants them I will be glad to look them up for you again. I'm vegetarian not vegan--althrough I have cut out a lot of dairy products out of my meals---you can buy organic soy products!!!!! I use them a lot. I have never aquired a taste for those fake meat things/ it is not what I call good eating!!!!!!!! Each to your own! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), August 15, 2000.

I am a registered dietitian working as a nutritionist at a university campus where I also teach nutrition classes. I know dietitian is a bad word to many of you working in the health food industry, but I'm also a vegetarian and I'm not here to point fingers. I do want to mention that alfalfa sprouts do NOT contain vitamin B12. I don't know about comfrey, and I can't imaging eating enough even if it did. Many B vitamins are not completely heat stable, so making a tea out of comfrey might not be very effective. However, vitamin B12 is only an issue for vegans, as it can be found in dairy products and eggs. Hmm, what else do I want to say to you all? Vegetarians AS A GROUP have less health problems (in terms of chronic diseases) than meat eaters AS A GROUP, but there are vegetarians that eat an unhealthy diet and omnivores that eat a very healthy diet. I'd encourage all of you to learn about the nutritional aspects of what you are doing and to cook as much as possible. Relying on convenience products reduces the nutritional quality of a diet whether it is vegetarian or not. I'd be happy to answer any questions any of you have.

-- Karen (kawhite@wcu.edu), August 16, 2000.

I didn't say alfalfa sprouts contain B12,I said alalfa does.And you can eat comfrey leaves in salads,not just in tea.

-- nobrabbit (conlane@prodigy.net), August 16, 2000.

Vegetarian: Indian word for lousy hunter.

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), August 18, 2000.

I have been a strict vegetarian for over ten years of my life (since I was 11) and my husband has also been a vegetarian for two years. This is a personal choice that he and I have made, we both feel that the consumption of animals is morally wrong due to the barbaric conditions that animals must suffer through to become our food. I read that 6 billion animals each year are slaughtered in the United States alone, this is so disproportionate to the amount of people living in the U.S. that this statistic just sickens me. I believethat eating meat is unnatural as I read in a science magazine that our stomach's do not possess the right type of bile for optimum digestion of meat and also we lack the flesh tearing incisors of known carnivores such as dogs and cats. Vegetarianism (to me) is a philosphy of concern for animals and the wish for their ethical treatment (not merely for the health benefits - to me these are not "true" vegetarians - they are just people who do not eat meat). I think that it takes a strong person to reject the brainwashing the meat industry shoves down our throats about how great meat is for you - so what if it has iron, B12 and protein in it you can get all of these nutrients from green leafy vegetables, nuts and pulses, vitamin enriched cereal and so on. As a passionate animal lover I find it incomprehensible that an animal should ever be raised in stolid and cruel conditions, then murdered for my consumption - to me this thought is just so abhorrent that I can not stand it! To me animals are not a lower form of life but are our equals. It is also unnatural for us to drink milk as have you noticed that we are the only species in the world to drink the milk of another species (of course cats will drink cow milk but mainly because humans give it to them). Also calcium is over-emphasized by the milk industry, of course our bodies need calcium to maintain strong bones but again it can be gained through NON animal sources such as green leafy veggies or artificial supplements, also China a country who consumes so very little dairy and meat products has one of the lowest rates of osteoperosis in the world (they are also supreme veggie eaters - also notice that their rates of heart disease and obesity are FAR lower). The point is that there are so many delicious meat substitutes that I do not see the need to turn our stomachs into "animal graveyards" by consuming the dead flesh of an innocent animal, with all the diseases (hoof & mouth, mad cow disease, scrapes etc) who wants to eat meat anyway? Great meat substitutes are Morningstar Farms brand hotdogs, "chicken" nuggets, breakfast links etc. Also Zoglos, I can't believe there is no meat hotdogs (my fave) and many other brands. Just as there is trial and error with meat you also have to experiment to find your favourite vegetarian foods. There is also tofu (if you cook it properly) which is so good and tempeh (yuck) and soy ice creams and milks which taste just as good as cows milk sans cruelty. (I also do not believe in animal experimentation for any reason and would refuse treatments tested on animals - I take very little medication). I am just your average 21 year old right now but I know for sure that I will be happily and healthily vegetarian for the rest of my life. I welcome everyone's thoughts but no insults please! I respect the right of carnivores but I just chose not to live their lifestyle and eat meat therefore I feel that no one has the right to criticize my beliefs - as people so often do. It's really strange how (with experiences I have had anyway) that meat eaters can criticize me "the vegetarian" yet when I question them they blow up - how's that for a double standard.

-- Donna Hanbury (normandy44@hotmail.com), March 19, 2001.

Just because a food CONTAINS vitamin B-12,or any other nutrient, does not mean a thing if the body cannot assimilate it anyway.Assimilable vitamin B12 is ONLY found in animal products, period. This is not a problem of course for vegetarians, (unless they eat too much soy, which contains lots of anti-nutrients) only vegans, whose diet is totally unnatural, and needs constant vigilance, and alot of expensive supplementation (usually unnatural) to maintain a semblance of health. As I have blathered about previously, my now teenage daughter told me when she was ten she could spot a veggie on the spot; I thought she was goofy, but she turned out to be brilliantly perceptive, as usual. Life-long vegetarians, especially if they were so in utero, and absolutely if they are vegans, amazing often have similar physical characteristics, particularly in their facial structure. Long, narrow, faces and jawline, large noses, and as Weston Price pointed out in his work, inadequate dental arches, disallowing adequate space for a complete set of teeth.

We have friends who over the years became increasingly more vegetarian, who have three sons who illustrate this phenomenon to us perfectly: the oldest, at 20, was raised on a wholesome, but rather natural diet, and has a roundish face, of average height, and very attractive; the middle one, 18, is about 4 inches taller, has a long stretched-out kinda look to him, and the youngest still only 13, he.......well lets just say the poor boy aint winnin no beauty contests. I realize this is just an anecdote, and will probably piss some people off, but it is only the most blatant example. My kids have MANY veggie friends, and the more I observe them, the more convinced I am of the need for animal products in a wholesome diet. I think its especially important for teenage girls; I have seen many examples of PSYCHOLOGICAL changes curiously begun when these girls have decided to "love animals" by not eating them.

Incidentally, Morningstar Farms products, owned by Kellogs, has just been shown to contain GMO soy and Starlink corn.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

Hmmmm. I am paraphrasing from memory, so forgive me if I get this a bit garbled or incomplete. I was reading an article about only getting B12 from animal sources, but that our typical meat is very deficient in B12 (from what it should be normally). This was attributed to the poor diets that the animals ate, and it was discovered that animals fed organically-raised food (which happened to be higher in B12 than "conventionally" raised) had higher levels of B12. Another reason to go organic!

As far as our "natural" diet, I believe we were intended to be omnivores, but that meat is featured too often and in far too large amounts in the typical non-vegetarian diet. Also, some vegetarians/vegans, especially the youngsters, still don't pay close enough attention to eating healthily. A friend was telling me about having company for dinner -- she had been informed that the daughter was a vegetarian, so in addition to the meat course, she had plenty of vegetable/grain dishes. The daughter wouldn't eat them -- because she didn't like them. She apparently subsists on potato chips and the like. Someone like that WOULD be very unhealthy.

-- Joy F (So.Central Wisconsin) (CatFlunky@excite.com), March 19, 2001.

Earthmama, I'm interested in hearing more about the psychological changes you mentioned.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 19, 2001.

Oh to be 21 and that passionate about something. Just one point, Donna, most animals don't partake of milk from species other than their own because they haven't found a way to procur it. Most omnivores and many carnivores ,if given the chance, will readily lap up cow's or goat's milk. Put a nice platter out in front of the pigs, 'posssums, racoons,lion, tigers,or bears, etc and see what happens. Look for all the reasons something happens, not just those that fir your hypothesis.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

Donna, how cool to see someone your age who has such a great handle on your beliefs.

I've only been a veggie for 25 years, but Î think I was a closet veggie all my life. I was always kind of grossed out by eating meat, which was forced on me by my carnivorous parents.

My kids were raised veggie, but we never forced it on them; they could cook THEIR OWN meat anytime they wanted, and they occassionally did. They also sometimes at meat at their friends' homes. They certainly didn't grow up "all stretched out" or ugly. One of them has worked as a fashion model; she's six feet tall, built like a brick shit house, and gorgeous. Her bro is six three, one handsome devil, two hundred pounds. I personally am a slender 235 pounds (yep, I'm tall) I've got the best teeth you could ever hope for, as does ONE of the kids. I think teeth must be at least largely genetic, as my parents had only two or three cavities between them, even into their mid eighties.

I don't personnally care for "meat substitutes", as meat flavor grosses me out. But, for you, Donna, and others who want to try it, I do like to eat "Gimme Lean" brand fake sausage. It's awesom! I think I love it so much because of the seasoning as much as anything.

As far as being "intended" to be omnivores, I'm not so sure. After all, we ARE primates, and certainly most primates are veggies. I don't know if we've really had time to evolve into carnivores successfully, in the rather limited time since we branched off from the rest of the family.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), March 19, 2001.

A note about primates: Jane Goodall makes mention of how chimps periodically go on mad murderous rages, where they eat their prey, suggesting that their bodies may very well be in need of essential nutrients only meat can provide.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 19, 2001.

Its interesting to see this thread revived after 6-7 months!

My one comment to the recent responses is.. I don't consider comparing the appearance of 3 sons to be a 'scientific' study to prove any conection of the diet to height or big noses. I am fairly tall and have a big nose, but I was raised on a meat diet, became vegetarian at about 15 years of age. I didn't get much taller and my nose didn'tget any bigger at that time. I am interested in proven medical research, but kneejerk personal observations of a small group of people have no basis. I guess that whether my diet is 'natural' or not is of no consequence to me. I am happy, healthy and can sleep at night, without dreams of animals suffering at my expense.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), March 20, 2001.

Not to be argumentative, earthmama, but does this mean that those groups of people who are known to have eaten their opponents in battles shows that they needed to occassionally eat human meat?

I should warn my friends to stay away from me when I get pissed!

Dianne, I'm glad you raised the issue of false conclusions re height, nose, ugliness, etc. I was going to, but didn't. After 15 years of being an omnivore, I was six foot five inches tall, and so skinny (155 pounfs) that I had to run around in the shower to get wet. Except for my nose, which at size twelve; it got wet right away, if I bent over lower than the shower head. Now, after almost 25 years of veggiehood, I've managed to put on eighty pounds, my nose hasn't grown anymore, and I'm a lot better looking than I was at fifteen. This is PROOF that humans have evolved to be vegetarians. Absolute proof.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), March 20, 2001.

Enjoyed your post, Joe!!

By the by, if you read my previous post carefully, I surely never made any claims to 'science'; fact is, I specifically mentioned the word ANECDOTE!! I do believe I tried to make it clear that I was expressing my experience, as I have come to know dozens and dozens of vegetarians, both through my children and through my daily nutrition/herbal work with the public. Your anecdotes are certainly as valid as mine, based on your experience, which is why they ARE anecdotes!!

As to the psychological changes in adolescent girls...since hormonal imbalances are a causative factor in depression, mood swings, weight control, pms, etc., the teenage years are one of most nutrient-needy times in one's life. The importance of essential fatty acids and how they relate to hormonal balance cannot be overemphasized, and they are pretty much impossible to garner in a meatless diet, and absolutely in a vegan one. Again, in my own experience, I have personally observed almost complete personality changes in girls after they have removed animal products from their diet. It was not a pretty sight.

Dianne, thank you for your response. I can see that if what you say here: "I guess that whether my diet is 'natural' or not is of no consequence to me" is how you feel, then we will just agree to disagree, which is fine of course! As for me, it is of the highest degree of consequence to me.....it is indeed my primary value, that I live as close to a natural, earth-centered life as reasonably possible.

We CAN concurr on this statement, however, "I am happy, healthy and can sleep at night, without dreams of animals suffering at my expense" Amen to that! Which is why I only partake of animals I am certain suffered not a whit at my expense.

Blessings,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), March 25, 2001.

I just want to say that I enjoyed reading everybody's opinions on being a vegitarian. And, I myself have been a vegitarian for a while but i have a re-occuring problem. Maybe someone can help me out here. I have a very low energy level, because all i want to do is sleep. I was told that it could be because of my diet and the lack of protein (meat)in it. So now occasionally i will eat some chicken or possibly some beef just so i can get some more protein. I will on the other hand eat some eggs and seafood but im not sure why this keep happening to me. I used to take billions!! of vitamins a day, and still no change... If someone has any suggestions please e-mail me.. thanx!!!

-- judy (incubabe_stellar@hotmail.com), March 22, 2002.

Judy, have you had a blood test for anaemia? Do you have enough iron in your diet? Also vitamin B complex (including B12), but I'd suspect anaemia.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), March 22, 2002.

If interested, you can get a lot of free inforation at Hallelujah acres(www.hacres.com) on vegatarian diets, mostly raw foods. This is a site by Rev. Malkmus with a million or more following his path. I scroll diwn to near the bottom and read the recipes. Also has orginic gargening info the last two weeks. Also a lot of Alternative health info on the following two sites.

nonHSI@agoramail.net HSI is Health science Institute

LifeExtension@ib.bcentrel.com

I like fre information, and usually read all types of diets. Figure I can learn from all of them.

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), March 22, 2002.

OOOPS! The Health Science Institute free e-mail is at:

www.haibaltimore.com/hsi/hsiindexie.html

The Life Extension Foundation free e-mail is at:

www.lef.com

-- Darrell Schlueter (schlut@adams.net), March 23, 2002.