Hello everyone,

I have not been on nor read from this forum for quite a while, main reason being my own list has grown mucho and is extremely active. I now have a moderator (a fine man) and he runs it well, with me making suggestions now and then.

Anyway, I have come to the conclusion that the first greatest commandment cannot be obeyed without also obeying the second greatest one. Sometimes on e-mail a person thinks he is typing to another keyboard and does not treat the person he is responding to as a real person with feelings. This person truly believes he is going to heaven regardless of how he treats others. In law enforcement they have come to the conclusion that when some people get behind the wheel of a car they don't think *people* in the other cars but thinks only other cars being in their way. I believe from the scriptures we find that if we offend others with our attacking them (and not their doctrine) it would be better if we had not been born unless they repent and turn to God for forgiveness.

Anyway....just my thoughts for the day.

Nelta Brock http://members.xoom.com/atlen/ Bible discussion list: 1stCen-Christianity-subscribe@egroups.com

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000

Answers

And Benjamin....

I don't think you are qualified to make comments about the way "others have treated Nelta."

You do not even come close to knowing the history of the things Nelta has done on this forum in the past before you showed up.

You said it right....she brought a lot of it on herself.

Unless you are willing to go back in the archives and read everything Nelta has said and done in the past....you might be better saving your accolades for those who have tried to reason with her in the past.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2000

Nelta,

I agree with a lot of what you say above. When you don't know a person personally and are only responding to his/her words, it is all too easy to forget to show love and compassion to the person. Things are worse in some non-Christian forums I have visited, but that's not a good excuse. I'm afraid also that you have been the target of a disproportionate amount of the abuse.

However, while I agree generally with what you are saying, I think it's only fair to say that some people seem to "bring it on themselves". The things they say, the way they say them, the attitudes they display, the way they respond, are all so exasperating that they tend to bring out the "bad side" of others.

Unfortunately, I fear you are one of these. You have made some good points at times. Some positions you have tried to get across are ones I personally agree with, either in whole or in part. But your little parables and skits, far from being a "gentle" way to get people to see things from a different perspective, often come across as very heavy-handed and sarcastic. You also often (usually?) "hit and run." When someone takes you and your views seriously enough to give a serious response, you either ignore them, or you just come back and re-iterate your original position, without giving any real answer to what they have said. If they persist, you may hit them, as you did me, with an "I don't care if you agree or not." If you don't care at all, then why bother to attack the other person's positions in the first place? That doesn't seem very loving or Christian! If you do think it is an issue that is important enough to warrant trying to correct views that you think are wrong, then you should also take the other person's objections seriously enough to answer them. (I'm not talking about those who are primarily abusing you. I think that kind of communication is best ignored. But I think serious responses should get serious consideration and serious responses in return. "Do to others as you would that others should do to you.")

The points you made, above, are good. But I'm not sure you are the best person to make them. I am reminded of what we often see in little children. One will tease and torment another until the one who is being tormented will eventually lash out. So what does the one doing the tormenting do next? "Mommy, mommy! He hit me!"

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000

Ben, hello ! I see you didn't take my explanation about why I said it didn't bother me if you didn't take what I said as truth. The reason I said that (and I told you this already) was because you accused me of trying to shove what I said down people's throats. That couldn't be further than the truth.

Then about the skits...etc. They do not attack people. The attack traditions in the restoration movement....actually in all institutional situations.

Well, I knew there would be complaints about what I wrote. Actually, I didn't expect one from you, however.

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2000

Danny,

I have done some browsing through the archives. Didn't see much by Nelta though, and most of what I did see from her seemed pretty good. I'm probably missing what you are talking about, but I don't have time to read ALL that is in the archives. If you'd like to point me to particular threads, I'd be happy to be enlightened. Nelta does have some irritating ways of doing some things, but what I've seen doesn't seem enough to warrant the abuse she usually seems to get from some people here.

Nelta,

Regarding the intention of your skits, etc. -- I assume you are an American. I am too -- technically. (And I also hold a British passport and have permanent residence status in Hong Kong.) But I have lived most of my life (including most of my "formative years") outside of the U.S. So I tend to see things with an outsider's eye. I used to be very critical of the U.S. and U.S. ways of doing things. I guess I still am, to some extent. But I have learned that with MOST Americans, whatever their politics, I have to be careful HOW I present any criticisms I might want to make. Parody, irony, sarcasm, etc. does not seem to be appreciated when it is too heavy-handed. Even people who basically agree with my point of view seem to REACT against it when I am too heavy-handed or too harsh in what I say. The same thing has happened to me when I have tried to make criticisms of "the way we do things" in the church. If I'm too heavy-handed, people "turn off" and "react."

According to what Danny has just said, the problem with your approach MIGHT be even bigger than that. I can't comment, one way or the other, on that until I've seen the evidence. But the above are my observations on what I have seen for myself so far in things that have happened since I started following the forum (in February?) and in portions of the archives that I have looked at.

I'm sorry if what I said earlier seemed harsh and critical. I was trying -- and am trying -- to offer a little "constuctive criticism". If you think your views are worth presenting, you might give some thought to how you could present them in a way that is more likely to get a hearing rather than an emotional reaction. If you don't think they are worth presenting and/or defending RATIONALLY, then it seems that the Christian love that you talked about would suggest that you quit "stirring things up".

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2000

P.S. to Nelta,

When I wrote the above, I had not yet read the new "One Year" thread. I appreciate what you wrote there.

-- Anonymous, August 03, 2000