Hi Y'all,

In a continuing effort to improve my site (which includes getting the fuck off of Xoom ASAP), I was hoping some of y'all would share what WYSIWYG editor you use. I've got, and have been using, PageMill, which seem ok for basic stuff, but being proficient in Quark, I know that it leaves a lot to be desired. Any suggestions?

Oh, and to all you deities out there who code by hand: I have the deepest respect for you, honestly, but I don't have the time right now to learn enough HTML to present a respectable site. So to please the aesthetics of my readers, I'm going to steer clear of the mess I'd make if I were to attempt to write the code myself.

thanks!

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

Answers

Notepad. Or WebEdit, when I'm in a hurry. But never, ever, ever will I use a WYSIWYG editor. They all churn out sloppy code. My favorite webdesigner in the whole wide world (www.spacegirl.org) once compared it to wearing dirty underwear under a nice, hip outfit. You might look good on the outside, but God forbid you get hit by a car!

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

Oh yeah, she specifically says she's not in the mood to learn HTML, and you tell her she has to. Real helpful, yo.

I administer my site remotely, so most of the time I use FrontPage 2000. You can turn off the "reformat into shit" option, which is nice for us "HTML deities". I don't have it on my home computer, though, so I'll use Notepad.

BTW, if you don't want to actually learn HTML, include files rule: thanks to them I just have to keep typing <P> over and over again when I don't use a WYSIWIG editor. All your pages can have a uniform look, and if you want the whole site to be a different color, you just change one line, and hey presto.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

macromedia dreamweaver is the only way to go! it's very simple and less clutter than frontpage express

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I use Notepad for clients' websites that I work on but that requires an extensive knowledge of HTML. Since you don't have the time to spend learning HTML, I would use something like AOLPress (no need to be connected with AOL Internet Service) because it has complete tools for every single thing related to a website and there are no flaws with the software that I could find. http://www.aolpress.com.

Microsoft Publishing also has a nice web authoring editor. It took me a bit longer to use this program than AOLPress did but overall the program seems to be nice for the premade templates and help files.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I second Dreamweaver. It rocks thoroughly.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I use DreamWeaver a lot of times for layout because I've found it to be the best WYSIWYG editor in terms of the code it does generate. It's not perfect, certainly, but it's a lot better than Front Page or Netscape Composer or something.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

This is actually directed at those of you who use Notepad: is there a reason (other than maybe expense) why you don't use something like Homesite? I used Notepad for years until I tried Homesite for a while .... wow! I do everything the way I used to, but now I have spellcheck! Site-wide search and replace! Automation so I don't have to keep typing gt/lt signs all over the place!

Caveat for any WYSIWYG users who might be reading this: Homesite's WYSIWYG option sucks. Every time I've tried using it I've wound up having to rewrite the code from scratch.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I third (or fourth) the Dreamweaver. You can hand code it if you want (and there are times you will probably have to tweak it). But it does a really good job, and as far as WYSIWYG editors out there - it can do more than you probably want it to do (you can insert your JavaScript code, you can use it as your FTP, you can update file names and the links will follow.....

Puppy

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I hear Dreamweaver is good.

I've been a lazy wench lately, but when I was coding frequently, I coded by hand and did java scripting, frames, preloads, mouseovers, etc. without too much trouble. Helped me understand the code better to do it by scratch, look at examples, etc. Did a site incorporating VRML (3-D) interactive games and artwork. Did not do the VRML work, but it's quite good. A friend of mine went to a lot of effort and made some impressive things. Made him some templates for any HTML and text add-ins and updates and so he's updating and taking care of the site solo now.

Basically, when i was actively designing, I did everything but CGI stuff, which I'll probably learn next before any major projects.

I used Microsoft WYSIWYG editors and hated them all, but I have a friend who makes web pages that are 99% text and she swears by them. I found them irritating and Ihad to tweak and re-code half of my work when I used one, but am more into graphics and visual effects.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

In answer to your question Beth, I use Notepad (or more to the point Editpad) because I like having control over my pages. I don't want my software doing things which I may or may not be aware it is doing. I also like the uncluttered interface of a text editor.

In short, I've never used anything else because I never saw the need to do so.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I was a die-hard notepad user for a long time, and don't regret it-- I know HTML really well now, and really understand how browsers read pages of code and translate it into what we see on our screens.

But then... last semester I was making a webpage for a class assignment, and started dicking around with using Dreamweaver. And it was great! It turns out decent-to-good code and it is SO EASY. I completed that class project using Dreamweaver, and then redesigned my journal with it, as well. Now I use it for day to day updates-- I'm hooked.

I feel like a bit of cheater, but not enough to deter me from using Dreamweaver. My feeling is, -I- know that I know HTML. Now that I do, there's no point in spending a lot of time futzing around with the details using notepad-- I'd rather spend that time writing (or NOT writing, as you might think if you've been following my journal lately!).

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

I'm going to jump on the ol' Dreamweaver bandwagon. I've been using it for about 1 1/2 years and love it AND BBEdit (which comes with the Mac version). You can download a free trial of Dreamweaver at the Macromedia website. It's a fully functional, saves-your-work kind of version that stops working after 30 days. They've also got 30 day trial versions of Flash 4, Fireworks 3 and all the other programs they make. It's a good way to see if you lke the program without making any kind of investment.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2000

Beth asked, not unreasonably: This is actually directed at those of you who use Notepad: is there a reason (other than maybe expense) why you don't use something like Homesite?

Expense is definitely the issue for me. I'm sure Dreamweaver is excellent but I don't have the hundreds of dollars required to purchase it. But I kind of like hand-coding anyway (now using NoteTab Light). I started with FrontPage 97 back when I first set about working on my website back in July '98. Nearer the end of that year, I started learning hand-coding when I got an HTML tutor on a magazine CD-ROM. Never looked back since then, especially when I realised just how much redundant code FrontPage spewed up; some of the pages at my site I would go through, cutting out the unnecessary code which made no difference to the appearance of the page, and bring down in size by as much as 15Kb. So FrontPage and I are no longer friends. I've tried text editors like Arachnophilia since then which automate the procedure so you don't have to write the tags yourself, but gave up on them fairly quickly. Still, if I could afford Dreamweaver, and if I liked it, I'm sure I could overcome these scruples and go back to WYSIWYG for convenience's sake

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

I also use HomeSite, Beth, and it puzzles me why this is regarded with the same contempt as FrontPage and its ilk. I write all of the raw code (and my HTML is nothing spectacular, but I get by), but HomeSite makes it so much easier to, as you said, spell check and replace shit.

I have a real problem with that whole 'Notepad is for Pussies' group or whatever it is. Mostly because using women's genetalia as an insult is just plain lame, but also because hardcore Notepadders are so insufferable. Glark from Uber Interactive said in a forum on Hissyfit about this that having a graphic on your page that says 'Made with Notepad' is akin to a bag of tortilla chips with 'Corn Crushed with a Big Rock' on the bag. As in the result produced may not be any different, but the rock sure did take a hell of a lot longer to reach the same goal. (I know that he and Wing Chun use HomeSite, at least for Hissyfit.)

But I do loathe sites made with FrontPage. I find you can spot them almost instantly, apart from the horrendous code it generates, and the problems with FP Extensions.

In summary, it's all about Allaire HomeSite.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

OK, you guys have convinced me - I'm downloading a trial version of Homesite as we speak. Btw, I did not mean to insult anyone with my Notepad comments. I know the Notepad maffia tends to be snobbish, to put it mildly, and more than a few excellent sites have been created with WYSIWYG editors. But I maintain that actually knowing what you are building makes all the difference

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

For my journal site, I use Stephen Deken's journal script (the precursor of diary-x) and I find that it makes maintaining the site extremely easy. I'm actually pondering setting up a copy on my machine at work to maintain my professional website. You have to know enough HTML to make your templates the first time, and then (depending on exactly how picky you are about appearance) you can pretty much just type your entry into a web form.

Of course, you have to have a CGI-friendly hosting service (Concentric is good) and be willing to spend a little time setting things up.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

But I do loathe sites made with FrontPage. I find you can spot them almost instantly, apart from the horrendous code it generates.

That's not fair.... my code isn't horrendous *sniffle*....

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Stijn, in HomeSite you can do the raw code yourself (which I do) and just use the spellcheck and search and replace or code-sweeper to tidy things up if you're too lazy to indent properly (like I am). So it's not a strictly WYSIWYG editor.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Code that shit in pine, the way I do, baby! That'll learn your ass right quick. =) It's handy to have your email account right there in the same window, and if you can use pine, you can plow through any o' those candy-ass things on the web too. Have fun. =)

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

I've always been a hand-coder and never had any trouble with it. I've tried a few HTML editors over the years and most of them irritated me too much to actually be useful. I am intrigued by this "Homesite" you speak of, however, and may download the trial version to see how I like it.

With HTML editors I've tried in the past, I've found that it's just so frustrating to try to learn how to make it do what I could do in two seconds by just TYPING IN THE CODE, that I usually give up pretty quick.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Add me to the Dreamweaver team. I used Pagemill for a while but it used to do really awful things to the code that I'd just have to go into and fix anyway. I started using Dreamweaver because it is the WYSIWYG editor at school and I really haven't looked back since. I don't know whether its code is clean or whaterever (I'm currently working on getting my html coding skills up to snuff) but I do know that my sites look good on most browsers and creating forms or implenting CGI is pretty easy. I'd say that since you've stated you're proficient in Quark, you'll like dreamweaver a lot better. Pick up a copy of fireworks if you can also. I really like it for creating web graphics, though I have to admit I haven't tried Image Ready. And don't forget that if you are still a student (even community college) you can get some really good educational discounts. E.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

I have tried Homesite, and I did like it, but I usually use Editpad when I want to do code because it launches really quickly, doesn't take much memory, and (unlike Notepad) allows you to have multiple files open and do find and replace (although not among multiple files).

I only launch Dreamweaver when I am redesigning and want to test out different color combos or layouts, or put in a mouseover or other action that I don't feel like (or know how to) hand-code.

Oh, and another reason -- the whole reason I started my site was to force myself to learn HTML and design and stuff. So I felt like using any WYSIWYG editor was cheating for myself. But I really don't care what other people use. Except when I am competing for web building jobs with people who use FrontPage Express and then underbid me and the client doesn't understand the difference.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Coffee Cup is good too. I use that occasionally for some of the DHTML that I want. You can get a free version of it for trial at download.com or pay the $80 and get it at www.coffeecup.com

Nicole

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

If you've got hack your code, try Programmers File Editor.  (Much better than notepad, and its free)

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Ok...I'll be the lone defender of FrontPage. Yes it can have messy (but workable) code. Yes it isn't as easy to use as Word, but if you already know Word it isn't that big of a stretch to FrontPage.

I can write HTML, but don't because I design better visually. I have used Dreamweaver, but found all those floating palettes distracting. I tried to get into it enough to be comfortable, but each time I had to do something I thought Fuck itI can do this ten times faster in FP. Been using the little shit ever since.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2000

Ah, the great WYSIWYG controversy. I guess I'm comfortable with WYSIWYG editors because I started doing layout with Publish It! on my IIgs, back in the day.

As far as web design, I started out using Netscape Composer and boy can that screw up code! It's terrible with relative links, too, though maybe it was my inexperience at the time. I went through a raw code phase and am glad, because now I know how to fix things and write raw code when I need to (when I'm away from home or using Blogger). It bugged my boss, though, so I started using BBEdit and later Dreamweaver, because that's what our designers used.

I like most everything about Dreamweaver and it's helped me learn more. Also, I just discovered the FTP option. I love this because I can upload files in different directories all at once, rather than having to switch between different folders, as when using a seperate FTP program. I also like designing my pages graphically, I guess it's how I think (though I had a time when I learned to think/dream in code, just like when I took Spanish). I stopped hand-coding when it seemed to slow me down (on more complicated layouts, especially). At one point, all that extra typing, especially because brackets are pretty awkward, was wearing my wrists out.

Dreamweaver's great in conjuntion with Fireworks, too, though I haven't learned all the functionality.

In the past few weeks, I decided to just make templates for a lot of my pages in Dreamweaver, then use Blogger for updates. I don't think I'll look back, because I'm damn lazy. The only place to go from here is includes, but I haven't got there yet.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

I learned html using notepad. Then I migrated to HotDog Pro (does anybody use that anymore?) which worked in much the way Homesite does, just not as well. I believe Front Page was next, but that didn't last long as I detest the way it makes your code look. After Front Page nightmares I went back to coding in notepad again (and learned to code using pico, to boot), until about two years ago when I switched to Homesite.

I love having a spellcheck and find and replace (particularly the extended search and replace) and though I agree using the WYSIWYG function of Homesite to code is dangerous, it gives you a quick reference as to what everything is looking like without having to keep refreshing your browser.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

I'll tell you what NOT to use -- Netscape Composer! I'm relatively new to this home page business (as you can tell by the number of questions I've posted here about hosting, etc.), but recently was called upon to do web page for a class reunion. I tried using Yahoo! Geocities' online editors (they have beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels), but couldn't get the hang of a couple of things, so decided to give Composer a try, thanks to a suggestion (possibly by someone on this board?). Basically all I found it good for was to figure out how it did some things, then cut-and-paste some of the code it generated into Yahoo!Geocities' advanced editor, and code the bloody thing by hand. Fun!

Glad you posted this question, though, because I've been trying to find a WYSIWYG editor myself, and it's good to hear what everyone else thinks.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

I have to jump on the Homesite bandwagon. I've been using it since 1996 or '97. It's not a program for beginners though, since you need to know at least basic tags. For me, it's really a short cut for plugging in common/oft-used tags. I also dig the color coding. Homesite still allows you complete control over your code.

VisualSlick is another editor I've heard is comparable to Homesite. My use of it has been extremely limited, though.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

Sorry, all, I just had to clear up a couple of misconceptions that seem to be floating around...

1. Homesite is NOT a WYSIWYG Web Editor. It is a very fancy text editor, similar to BBEdit for the Mac, but better (flames here). It offers numerous enhancements over Notepad, including color-coding of your HTML (tags green, text black, paths blue, JScripts and ASP in red). It's also VERY handy for JScript and ASP (VBScript) because it recognizes the syntax and color-codes appropriately. In a nutshell, it's a very professional version of many of the Shareware text tools out there (many named above). If you know or want to learn HTML, try it. If you don't (and you don't have to to make good pages) ...

2. FrontPage is not that bad. So the code's a little sloppy. If you are not applying for work as an HTML programmer, no one will ever look or care. FP2K will indeed let you turn off the "sprinkle code turds liberally throughout my page" option. It still sneaks a few in there, though. And you can code in Raw HTML if you want (sort of).

And you can only spot the pages if the user has used the included themes. If not, you can design a site any way you want. The big strength of FP is in allowing non-html people to code in an interface they are familiar with. Where I used to work, I converted a large corporate site into FrontPage (with Extensions) because then I could designate people in different departments as being the local "Webmaster" -- it made them feel studly. And they were responsible for maintaining their little piece of the site. All they had to do was surf to the page they wanted to change in IE, click "edit" type in a login and password, edit and close. No FTP, no code. Of course, I would only let them change text on individual pages, not change site structure...

Notepad. Hmmm... Well, I don't use Quark or Pagemaker or any pussy tool like that. It generates dirty postscript. I just code

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2000

Sorry, all, I just had to clear up a couple of misconceptions that seem to be floating around...

1. Homesite is NOT a WYSIWYG Web Editor. It is a very fancy text editor, similar to BBEdit for the Mac, but better (flames here). It offers numerous enhancements over Notepad, including color-coding of your HTML (tags green, text black, paths blue, JScripts and ASP in red). It's also VERY handy for JScript and ASP (VBScript) because it recognizes the syntax and color-codes appropriately. In a nutshell, it's a very professional version of many of the Shareware text tools out there (many named above). If you know or want to learn HTML, try it. If you don't (and you don't have to to make good pages) ...

2. FrontPage is not that bad. So the code's a little sloppy. If you are not applying for work as an HTML programmer, no one will ever look or care. FP2K will indeed let you turn off the "sprinkle code turds liberally throughout my page" option. It still sneaks a few in there, though. And you can code in Raw HTML if you want (sort of).

And you can only spot the pages if the user has used the included themes. If not, you can design a site any way you want. The big strength of FP is in allowing non-html people to code in an interface they are familiar with. Where I used to work, I converted a large corporate site into FrontPage (with Extensions) because then I could designate people in different departments as being the local "Webmaster" -- it made them feel studly. And they were responsible for maintaining their little piece of the site. All they had to do was surf to the page they wanted to change in IE, click "edit" type in a login and password, edit and close. No FTP, no code. Of course, I would only let them change text on individual pages, not change site structure...

Notepad. Hmmm... Well, I don't use Quark or Pagemaker or any pussy tool like that. It generates dirty postscript. I just code the PostScript by hand. Oh, and I make my own paper. And mix my own ink. ...

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2000

I will be one of the people to recommend using Dreamwaever. I hated it at first, but it does some amazing stuff and will save you a lot of time. Just figure that with ANY web editing software, there will be times when you just have to go in and tweak it by hand. Dreamwaever will let you do that if you want. And remember that WYSIWYG editors just burp or something now and then. I don't know what it is. They have a little hissy fit and throw in some offbeat code, just to keep you on your toes. Consider it a challenge. In the end, nobody cares what you use to make a web site. As long as it looks and performs what you expect, then go with it, then come back later when no one is looking to tweak the code by hand and get rid of the little buggy stuff that you don't see on the surface. You don't get extra points for coding everything entirely by hand. Clients don't care about that stuff. Use whatever you can get your hands on. -Dave-

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2000

OK, so I'm dyslexic. Sue me. I can't type DREAMWEAVER today. Maybe I should just look at the box or something. Sorry folks. -Dave-

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2000