Some of you may be interested in getting on a list that will be for the discussing of the AD70 subject ONLY. It was just set up today and promises to be interesting to those of you who know about this, want to know about it, or are just curious.

Anyway here is what you do:

You can subscribe by sending an e-mail to ad70-request@bibelcenter.de

with just the one word subscribe in the main body of the e-mail text.

This new list was set up by two fellows who will be *debating* the subject but all are welcome to inter into the discussion. If anyone knows Ron's address you might let him know. I don't know much about this subject but it might be interesting. -- nib Nelta Brock http://members.xoom.com/atlen/ 1stCen-Christianity-subscribe@egroups.com

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000

Answers

John,

In fact, Josephus tells of a number of individuals who were "dupped" into believing that Christ was going to rescue them on the cloisters of the Temple by a false prophet. The people bought it....went up on the cloisters to meet Christ and be rescued.....and ended up being burned alive by the Romans. (Thus....Jesus said, "Don't believe it.")

If I'm not mistaken there were close to 600 killed in this way (I would have to look it up again for the actual number).

If anything, the writing of Josephus plays against the 70 AD return.

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Nelta:

What exactly IS the "ad70 theory"?

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000

Sam,

I'm not sure. One fellow spent weeks trying to get me to understand but I finally told him I was not getting it. Seems some believe Jesus returned in ad70 at (I think) the destruction of Jers. I might listen in and see if I can comprehend it. The idea is spreading in and out of the Church of Christ. I do know that the men who are *debating* the subject are very smart men....I know them both and have for a long time. They started discussing it on my list and I was VERY glad when they decided to set up a list for just that. Many on my list are as I and probably would not understand it all.

Nelta

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000

Hi, Nelta,

The reason they have to believe that Jesus returned then is because it is the only way they can square it with what the Scriptures say about the true second coming. (In Revelations, and other prophetic passages).

Respectfully,

Connie

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

The only problem with that is that all of the other prophecy being fulfilled now can't be fit into their theory, either.

Oh, well.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

If Jesus came back in 70 AD, how come no one saw him? And why was he in heaven speaking to John on Patmos circa AD 100? Is there perhaps a third coming? This theory is just plain silly.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

John,where did you get He was speaking to John at that date? Just curious. Thanks.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

John and Connie,I was also wondering how much study and research you have done on this subject?

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

Connie, are there people that think that Jesus didn't return at least once after his "ascension"?

From my earliest readings in the N.T. it has been my understanding that Christ did return and that many people that new him did see his return, and also it was what the early Christians were living for.

After reading the letters from the Apostles as if I was living at the time they were written i get them impression that his return was immenent

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

Connie, are there people that think that Jesus didn't return at least once after his "ascension"?

Are there people that think that? Well, yes, virtually ALL of Christianity thru the ages. The number of people who think Jesus has visited the earth again since His ascension at the beginning of the book of Acts is so tiny as to be almost none.

Yes, of course, the early Christians were eagerly anticipating His return, as should we be, but there is no scriptural or historical or documentary or testimonial evidence that He has been back. the next time we see Him, it will be the end.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

Paul;

I have never in 30 years heard any scholar put Revelation prior to AD 70. The general consensus among almost all scholars is that the book was written in the 90's. Nelson's Illustrated Dictionary of Bible Facts puts the date of the book at AD 96. Incidentally, the same book gives the general scholarly consensus for the dates of writing of the following books:

Matthew	AD 75 (Although I have heard some good arguments for an earlier date)
1 John	AD 85-90
John	AD 90-100
Jude	AD 90
Revelation	AD 96
2 John	AD 96
3 John	AD 97

A lot of these books have internal evidences, clues that tell scholars approximately when they were penned (things they mention that fit certain timeframes but not others, etc.), so the dates are pretty solid for many of them. So one argument I would make would be why the Apostles were continuing to write after AD 70, and why they never mentioned the miraculous second coming but continued to write as though it were yet an event to take place in the future.

This sort of thing seems to me to be similar to the legends that have gained credence in New Age circles recently that Jesus did not die on the cross but continued to live and fathered children. Jesus himself warned about those who would say that He had returned secretly, stating that his return would be very visible and apparent.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

Yes, of course, the early Christians were eagerly anticipating His return, as should we be, but there is no scriptural or historical or documentary or testimonial evidence that He has been back. the next time we see Him, it will be the end.

now I am a bit confused I had always thought that when Jesus said that many would see his return he meant that it was the people to whonm he was speaking or at least the people of that time.

and there was one other thing that was under the impression that needed to happen, that was to put an end to the old covenent of the jewish religion, i guess that i just figured that when He destroyed the old temple in Jerusalem as well as the city that was His way of ending that time of the old relationship that God had made with man. i guess you were saying that when Jesus returns again that Time itself would end?

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000

Hello, Jack.

I've been concentrating on this subject for only a year, but I have been reading the Scriptures for 41 years, so I've known about the second coming, but not many of the details. Which is where most people are today.

The generation which would witness all of the end times prophecies would arise AFTER, as Daniel was told by God, the opening of the books of the prophecies, which would occur when 'MANY SHALL RUN TO AND FRO, AND KNOWLEDGE SHALL BE INCREASED'.

I believe, now, after studying the material I've been studying this year, that the 'Sebat', 'wake-up!' generation is this one ~ the one which has witnessed several of the prophecies made in Zechariah, Isaiah, Joel, and Revelation, among many others. Some of these include the return of the Jews to their land, as God promised; the moving of the idols to make way for the building of the Aswan High Dam (Abu Simbel and other antiquities) and the destruction of the interior of Egypt, which is happenng apace, since the building of the dam.

In addition, there is the development of many of the technological inventions of the twentieth century ~ atomic weapons, information satellites, space shuttles, helicopters and atomic weapon-firing submarines.

Most people would rather read the fictional accounts of a Tim Lahaye or a Hal Lindsey, but I think THEY do a disservice to what the Scriptures depict.

I know that when one first reads Charles Miller's material, he/she thinks it is way off the edge of reality, but if you read every Scripture reference as you study it, it starts to come into focus as reality.

But of course to change what one has been indoctrinated with for a lifetime is difficult. But God's word is able to penetrate those defenses.

In Him,

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Dan, I am sorry I called you, "Jack".

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Yes, John,

I've often wondered how these things could have been written when they were, yet people don't think they are for us.

Also, Dan, I believe that people have a problem understanding the details of Christ's return, because they do not understand that it is a two-phase return; there is the taking up in the air of the church (called the 'Rapture') sometime after the mid-point of the great Tribulation, and Christ takes us to be with God, his feet not touching down on the Temple Mount; then he returns at the end of the Tribulation with ten thousand thousands of His Saints (us) to set up His Kingdom, return the earth to its pristine condition (a new heaven and a new earth) and to reign for a millennium (1000 years) with the Saints (us), while satan is bound for those thousand years.

At the first phase, no one knows 'the day nor the hour' of His return, but as soon as He arrives, 'every eye shall see'. Also, while we cannot know the day nor the hour, we are supposed to 'know the season'. In other words, be aware of what is occurring.

'Test the spirits, whether they be of God'.

This information is from "Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy", but they are my words from what I've studied.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

O-o-h!!

There's a 'Paul' and a 'Dan' Prentice, but no 'Jack'.

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Connie, *wink* there is a Paul,Dan,Dave,Jim and a Jack Prentice that lurk in here I will reflect on what you wrote last as I am at work now, and bbl Dan

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Matthew 24:23-31

"At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.

"So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Connie, Not Jack,Not Dan, Ill give you one more try!

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

Sorry,Connie we must all be on at together at the same time.

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

John

I understand and fully believe that during one of the times that Jesus is or has returned that he either has or will do it in the few ways in which he was prophesised to after all to be the Son of God He must fullfill all the prophesies made for him

I would like to offer the writings of an historian named Josephuswho recants the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in nearly identical ways in which it was forthtold it would happen

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

I am familiar with Josephus and I have no problems with his account of the destruction of Jerusalem. But he does not say (nor has any other historian or member of the church, for that matter) that Jesus returned at that time. If Jesus had returned at that time, don't you think the church would have been quite loud in proclaiming it? Instead of being so silent about it that the rest of the church never knew about it? I mean, how selfish is that? Jesus himself warns of people predicting a "secret" return (or returns!) and says that when he does return, it will be quite public and definite.

If I believe this theory I also have to believe Benny Hinn when he says that Jesus has been walking among the crowds at his crusades and will be appearing on the platform with him in the near future. Sorry, don't buy it. Jesus warned about this kind of speculation and said, "don't believe it."

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2000

A-h-h! I THOUGHT I had read a of a 'Jack Prentice' on one of the threads (about the Instrumental/non-Instrumental debate. Whatever happened to THAT?)

O.K. No one is setting a date. And no one should believe it if ANYONE tells you he is here already. He will come in the clouds, and every eye shall see Him as soon as he gets here.

If in no other way, this discussion is good in that it drives us to God's word to study what He is trying to get across to us.

Respectfully,

Connie

P.S.

Boy, I had fun today. We got together (my husband and I) with about 30 friends from our many years at Trinity, to celebrate the 70th birthday of the husband, the 65th birthday of the wife, and their 40th wedding anniversary.

Their children, from California and Colorado, planned this party starting in January.

Many of the people live elswhere now and returned for this. Four couples of us went together to 'Family Camp' at Cedarville, MI., (InterVarsity) many years ago, so there were many fond memories.

'It is good for brethren to dwell together in unity!'

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2000

Dan:

I happen to have Josephus' 'Complete Works', translated by William Whiston, borrowed from my son Tim, and had started reading it when I was trying to read five books at once, so it fell by the wayside.

Perhaps I'll try again. But, as we all know, there is no substitute for the Bible itself.

I see in the Introduction that Josephus marched with Vespasian's son in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. H-m-m. This should be interesting.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2000

If I remember correctly, Josephus actually thought Vespasian was the messiah. So much for Josephus.

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2000

Yes, and Josephus, though a Jew, worked with the Romans against his own people, so was not trusted or approved of by them. In fact, I think they wanted to kill him, but because of the prohibition against Jews killing Jews in the O.T., they didn't do it.

But some things I have read seem to say that he repented. I will find out. Also, simply from an historical standpoint, I want to know what he says. The same reason I read Calvin's 'Institutes'.

If I'm not mistaken, there are some historical details about John the Baptist in Josephus' works.

Of course, only the Bible is the Word of God; all other writings are from men.

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2000

Connie

I too have the unabridged complete works of josephus

and i also know that just because the scriptures don't mention so many things that they didn't happen

why would the Bible have stories in it about the second coming of Christ or any other appearance after his Ascension

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

Dan,

Can you expand on that last question so that I don't make any assumptions about it?

I can surmise what you're getting at, but I hate to get air-sickness from jumping to conclusions!

;-) ;-)

Connie

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

Connie,

I have frequently thought that there was no reason to tell that Jesus had completed all the prophesies pertaining to his return. Before His ascension He spoke to his apostles to prepare for return and that many of them would live to see it. and they went out preaching and teaching of it so that all would be ready for it.

i am not sure why after He had finally completed all the necessary work to begin his new covenent with man as well as putting a finality to the old covenent that it would be necessary for anyone to write about it.

so hence we get so many interpretations of the "end times" as to what they are when they are to transpire... blah blah blah

ps i was accused of being a preterist ..... is that a bad word or something *wink*

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

Hi, Dan,

No, I'd say that if you are a 'preterist' that you have had a lot of company in history.

Do you then consider that all of the end-times prophecies have already occurred?

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

Dan,

Why would John write about these things estimated to be by most scholars to be around 96 A.D. if they had already happened?

Also, why would God tell Daniel to close up the books 'til the time of the end? 'When may shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased'. ??

Have you considered that the generation being referred to was not the one which witnessed Christ's being taken to heaven? ~ after all, He said that is the way He'll reurn ~ and every eye will see Him. Did he return already and no one is aware of it? I believe it is the generation which will witness His return that is being referred to.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2000

i think that there are many references to christ returning to earth i think that the biggest problem that we have is understanding which return that is being refered to

i think that often the passages "end of time", "end of the times" ect. are misunderstood and that all of them may not refer to the same periods in time, or even the same events

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2000

Dan,

Do not ALL of the references have to be carried out, to be the true interpretation?

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2000

i guess what i meant was that some of the references were about the end of time (as we know it) and some of them were about the end of the times (the old covenent and the beginning of the church

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2000

I agree, Dan,

We have to differentiate between the prophecies:

Which ones were for prior to 70 A.D. and which ones are for 'the time of the end'.

As John noted above, we also have to take into account when each was written so that we can put each in context.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2000

Connie and John yup your right and that is why i feel that it was written 70 or prior thereto thanks dan

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2000

Dan,

Do you specifically mean Revelation? You're not saying enough for me to understand what you mean.

No matter when they were written, 519 B.C. (Ezekiel) or 96 A.D. + -, (Revelation) it is for when they are making their prophecies known that is important. After all, if I'm not mistaken, that is part of what prophecy is.

-- Anonymous, July 17, 2000

The "ad70*theory*" is simple--The Gospels (which contain the Olivet Discourse) and Revelation predict the coming of Christ in judgment upon the nation of Israel and the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem. All proclaim the New Testament Church as the chosen people, the body of Christ, the temple of the Holy Spirit, the New Jerusalem.

This view holds that everything predicted in these writings happened exactly as Christ said it would, in the clear view of the generation that received this prophecy.

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

Connie, I am going to have to do my research but I believe it was told for the books or seals to be re-opened, for the time is close, or words to that effect. I will get back to you on that. Regards,

-- Anonymous, July 22, 2000

Jim Craig,

Since most experts put the date of the writing of Revelation as 96 A. D., how does that fit in with the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.?

And how do all of the rest of the prophecies for the last days fit in with that? Has Christ returned to take us up in the air? Has every eye seen him?

Have heaven and earth passed away? How about the destruction detailed in Revelation?

Has Christ restored the Kingdom? Has the Nile dried up? The Euphrates?

I just re-read Revelation (all 22 chapters) and it is very interesting. As is Joel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Matthew, ('...Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days...' and many other prophetic Scriptures.

Respectfully,

Connie

-- Anonymous, July 22, 2000

Hi, Paul,

I re-post from above:

Connie, I am going to have to do my research but I believe it was told for the books or seals to be re-opened, for the time is close, or words to that effect. I will get back to you on that. Regards,

-- Paul Prentice (prentice1@freedsl.com), July 22, 2000.

Which post of mine do you mean? Are you referring to Daniel's question to God about when the seals would be opened?

Thank you,

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, July 22, 2000

Connie, Thats the one.Im still trying to find where I read that.Hopefully I will find it here soon.Also I have an excellent book on the subject called " The Parousia " (the second coming) J. Stuart Russell,forward by R.C.Spraul. Surprisingly easy to read.You can find it at http://www.bakerbooks.com.The book was published in 1878.Again I will get back to you on that asap.Thanks.

-- Anonymous, July 23, 2000

1878? The age of Adventism! Wasn't there a certain Charles Taze Russell going on about an invisible parousia back in the 1870's? And who could forget Ellen G. White? [Warning: Heavy Sarcasm Zone - Sense of Humor Required]

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2000

John,

I can see why some of those places where people study are called 'cemeteries' instead of 'seminaries'.

An 'invisible Parousia', huh? The amillennial preterists can only be correct if there WAS an invisible parousia, which would contradict Scripture in several places.

Ditto the destruction of Jerusalem 70 A.D. That is the main reason for trying to show that 'to teleion' is the canon, in my opinion. One of the final acts of history will be the final destruction of Jerusalem.

Respectfully, but puzzled by that position,

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2000

An 'invisible Parousia', huh? The amillennial preterists can only be correct if there WAS an invisible parousia, which would contradict Scripture in several places.

Connie, I just don't understand this at all. I am a strong amillenialist, and I totally reject a secret second coming. hy must one go with the other?

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2000

Hello, Sam,

I don't say that they HAVE to go together, but if one thinks that all of the end-times prophecies except the second coming have already happened (the all-comforting-everything-has-happened-except-the- second coming, so-watch-and-pray (and preach the Gospel presumably), syndrome), then that one has to be a preterist-amillennialist. I don't know how you, being of that persuasion, can think that it WASN'T an invisible parousia.

I can't seem to get anyone to discuss it at length, and I suppose that is because they don't want to give any credibility to the mid-to- end-of-tribulation (day and hour unknown, but season can be) pre- millennial position. Which when one takes just a few Scriptures into consideration, has to be the case.

Either that or they are afraid of finding out that they'll have to relinquish some sacred cows.

What do you do with the passage in Matthew (is it in 24?) about: 'Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days..'?

I have just (a few days ago) re-read ALL 22 chapters of Revelation. It is SO instructive.

I know that this is considered to be my 'hobby horse', but it is SUCH an interesting subject, and God wants us to discover what he has said about it, so that we won't be taken in by fictional accounts such as Tim LaHaye's, and so that we'll be prepared.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, July 27, 2000

PRE -70AD DATING OF REVELATION. Since some have sought inquiry regarding what scholars have dated Revelation prior to 70AD. Here are some thoughts taken from the "Apocalyptic Preview" by Foy Wallace. " The argument on the chronology of the apocalypse is centered on the choice between two dates that have been assigned to it. l. The later part of the Domitian reign about 96 ad; 2. the pre-destruction of Jerusalem date in the period of Nero Caesar, about Ad58-64."

Scholars Brother Wallace documents as to the earlier date of Revelation.

l. Phillip Schaff: "History of the Christian Church. dated it at the beginning of the Neronian persecution in AD 64

2. Charles Wordsworth "Commentary on the Bible & Lectures on the Apocalypse 3. Milton S. Terry "Biblical Apocalyptics" 4. James M. MacDonald "The life and writings of John" Other eminent names who give an early date to Revelation are: Moses Stuart, Sanuel Davidson, Ewald, Bleek, Dewette, Cowles, Westcott and Hort Farrar, Lightfoot.

-- Anonymous, July 31, 2000