Are we supposed to hold the door? Not hold the door? Do you still expect to hold the door/have the door held for you?

Is it a notion of gender, or just being polite?

I know some men that will not walk through a door if I open it for them. The others will make this big 'ol "Oh, thank you! Ooh! How special!" if I'm opening the door for him. Like I've suddenly made him a lady.

Do you care? Where do you fall on the door holding/door opening/door greeting/who pays/what's a man's job/woman's job thing?

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

Answers

I don't think holding the door for a woman has ever gotten me a bad response, at least not outwardly. I can say that if a woman ever scoffed at me for doing such a thing, I'd never so much as pay for her dinner again. I don't need a big thank you or any such, but don't sniff at me for doing something friendly.

I pay. I always do. Regardless. Friend, girlfriend, or friend I want to be a girlfriend, I'm always paying. I don't usually mind, because if I can't afford it just then, I wouldn't be out in the first place.

I also don't mind if a woman holds the door for me. It just means she's thinking of me, at least in some capacity.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

I have to admit, I love it when a guy holds the door for me/pays for the first date. Do I expect it? No. I think it is a nice bonus when a guy is trying to give a good first impression (because we all know that will end after the first few dates, might as well enjoy it while we've got it!). I actually find it kind of cute when a guy takes a quick step right before he gets to the door so he can beat me there to open it.

Now---I must digress for a moment--

I HATE THE DOOR TEST!! Do you know that one? The car door test--I think it originated in some movie--When a guy opens the passenger door for you to get in, but then gets his panties in a bunch if you don't unlock his door by the time he gets around to the other side of the car.

I HATE IT -- HATE IT --HATE IT!!

I always end up fumbling around in the dark, trying to find the damn lock and making him stand outside in the heat/cold waiting for my dumbass to find the lock...Don't even let me get started on power locks!

Why does this have to be a test? Am I not worthy of your love if I forget to unlock your door before you walk around the car?

Someone please explain the phenomenon to me!

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

I just think it's polite. Man or woman, I guarantee that if you open the door for someone, they will appreciate it, especially if their hands are full. What really pisses me off is people who won't hold the door open for me when I'm obviously struggling with bags or boxes or something. They just stand there, looking at me with this stupid expression on their face. Hey, buddy, if it were YOU carrying 12 grocery bags, I'd hold the door for you!

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

The door thing...it's really odd. I'm not even talking about manners in general, just the door. I believe that the less energy expended opening the door, the better for mankind. So, if my holding the door open is going to be less effort than me opening it then you opening it, I'll do it. Maybe that's a little OCD. But, bring manners into it and we're talking about something different, because I may feel compelled to be like,"No, you go first." I don't know, maybe I should evaluate the whole door thing. I need a nap.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

There was this guy who lived a floor above me in the dorm last year. Somehow he knew my roommate and had dropped by my room once and said hi. One day I was walking into the dorm after the doors were locked. I had just come from my evening class and my hands were full of books (my backpack was missing). It's common practice in our dorm for someone standing inside the dorm near the doors to open them for just about anybody so they don't have to get their key and such (yeah, I know it's great for security). Well this guy was just standing there, looking off into space. When I realized he didn't see me, I decided to try to fish my key out of my pocket and dropped everything, which made a lot of noise. That got his attention. He looked at me, laughed a little, and walked away!!! I know he didn't have any obligation to open to door, but it just seemed rude. Then again, if anyone had just walked away like that, guy or girl, friend, passing aquaintance or total stranger, I would have thought it to be rude.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

The Car Door Test: I think that it is something that's nice to do for a guy but it isn't something that he should expect. First of all all of this has been thrown out the window since keyless door entries were invented. Now my boyfriend just laughs and says "But I did open the door for you" *click* See?! Such behavior!

Now do I expect a guy to open the door for me? Only if its convenient for him. If he gets to the door first then it would be really nice if he would open it for me and allow me to walk through the door first. But if I am walking ahead of him then I'll get it and hold it for him. No biggie.

Double set of doors, now these are tricky huh? A guy opens the first set of doors and the woman walks through...then what is she supposed to do? Go ahead and open the second set of doors and hold them open for the guy or just go ahead and walk through the door and prop it open for him?

Such weird things we think about huh? :o)

Men...such strange creatures. But then you have some women who want to be equal in some catagories but then want to be treated like a "lady" in other catagories. No wonder men say they can't understand us! *laughs*

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

Here's where I stand on the whole door thing: whoever gets to it first should hold it for the next person. I mean, shouldn't they?

If I obviously reach the door first and open it, stepping to the side so that my date can walk past, and then he does that thing where he reaches over my head (nearly impossible to do if you're not in the NBA) to put his hand on the door so that I can then like, walk under his arm and go first - isn't that strange? I hate it and it messes up the timing of the entrance...and we can't have that!

It's just NICE when someone opens a door for me, and I always appreciate it when someone pays for my dinner or whatever, but just because I'm a woman, it shouldn't mean that I can't be nice to a man in the same way sometimes and open doors and whip out the cash. I'm just sayin'.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

I open doors for people. I don't care what kind of plumbing I have. I don't expect them to hold doors for me. I also object to the implied need to hurry up if somebody's holding the door for me--I'm poking along at my own pace, and somebody 30 feet ahead opens the door, turns to look at me, and raises eyebrows, so I have to shuffle into a jog to get there in a reasonable amount of time. That's ruder than letting the door close in my face.

I held the door for a woman in business dress at a downtown office building once, and she gave me such a look, I thought I was going to get a crushed instep. Jesus, lady, it's just a door.

Heinlein wrote that one of the hallmarks of a dying culture is rudeness, in the form of your basic inconsideration of the people around you who you don't know. Not holding doors. Stealing parking spaces. Making a mess in a public restroom. Not doing anything to keep your kids reasonably quiet in public, or being publicly hostile towards people who are trying to keep the kids down to a dull roar. Readily avoidable body odor and other personal hygiene faux pas.

Herb Caen said it in his column years ago: I smiled at a pretty girl on the street today, and she smiled back. That feels better than laughing out loud!

Sometimes, when I hold a door for someone, I get a smile back. It's worth it.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

If someone, guy or otherwise, holds the door just because they got to it first and I'm coming in right behind them, that's all cool. I do that for people too.

It's that whole "I'm making a production out of holding the door open for you because you're a girl and I'm a guy and I'm being super- polite" thing that sort of freaks me out. I mean, I don't actively object to it or get pissed off or anything, it just kind of creeps me out.

The worst part about it is the double-door phenomenon. The guy chivalrously opens the door for you, all cool. But then you're faced with the inner door. Do you open it or stand there like an idiot waiting for him to open it for you? Either way, I feel dumb. If I open the inner door myself, it's like I'm confronting him with the fact that he didn't really need to open the outer door for me either. But if I let him open it, I feel like a total dork, "Um, hi, I can't open a door for myself."

So I guess I'm going to have to come down on the side of preferring guys not to open doors for me. Mind you, I'm not talking about holding the door. Holding the door because you got there first is all cool. But opening the door and standing there while I go through it? Weird.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

On our first date, my (soon to be) boyfriend came to the door to get me. After a few pleasantries on the porch, we began to walk towards the car. As we approached the curb I stopped, waiting patiently for him to unlock my door for me. He kept going, hit the keyless lock on his key ring and asked, "Are you getting in?" Ummm, I guess so. I felt like an ass just standing there. Won't ever make that mistake again!

I'm pleased to report that he will open doors for me, and he always pays the check at dinner. Always. Of course, I will open doors for him as well, and I always pick the check up at breakfast the next morning. Always.

I think it's just a courtesey, it's a nice way to be thoughtful. To me it's not a matter of manners, being polite vs. being rude, it's a matter of being thoughtful vs. being careless.

The word "manners" connotates elbows off the table, saying "bless you" when I sneeze, please, thank you and you're welcome. I would rather that my boyfriend follow the basic niceties of common manners than buy my dinner, or open doors for me. Of course, noone's forcing him to put his wallet away either!!

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

Maybe it is more of a southern thing, but I always found it weird to NOT open the door. My Dad taught me to do it for my mother and sisters when I was very young, and it is just a habit that stuck. It is seldom something I think about. Recently, however, I went to Chicago (read: The BIG CITY) and was actually insulted for opening a door for a lady. I am not a country bumpkin from the south that feels like he has to open the door for "the little lady" because she can't do it herself, I just think it is a gentlemenly thing to do.

The absolute worst though is when you open the door for someone at a restaurant, and they walk right on in and take what should have been your place in line. That pisses me off to no end. Repeatedly, I have had this done to me, and I haven't gotten up the guts to say anything about it. When my girlfriend and I go out to dinner somewhere, there may well be an hour wait at the door. Waiting for an hour sucks, but to have that amplified by the extremely rude people that you were just polite to? Shit.... I am getting mad just thinking about it.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

I saw that movie with the "car door test". It's called "A Bronx Tale". In it, the main character, a teenager is about to go out on a date, and one of his father figures (I think it's the gangster, played by Chazz Palmintieri) pulls him aside and tell him about the test. Unlock the passenger seat first, let her get in, and walk around the back and see if she unlocks your door for you. "If she doesn't--DUMP HER. She's SHIT," Chazz pronounces, or something like that. The teen is incredulous, but Chazz is quite insistent, on the grounds that the girl must be inconsiderate and self-absorbed. I understood the logic, but I found it a bit harsh. So did my girlfriend. The scene makes an impression on you, though.

Anyway, about the double-door quandary: I'm only one man, but I say: women, don't stand there waiting for the guy to open the second door. Open it yourself, and (I would recommend) go through it ahead of him, but hold it open for him to catch as you do so. If you wanna make an equality statement, let him walk through first. But don't make him open the door. I'd find that a bit presumptuous. And that's my Miss Manners lesson for today. :)

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

Doors. Hmm. So many stories. I, like most everyone else in this forum, feel that it's common courtesy to open a door for someone when they're right behind you, have their hands full, getting into your car, etc. I think it shows decent manners.

What kills me is when you do that for someone and they don't think to say thank you.

I'm not obligated to hold the door for you, sir/ma'am. Do you see 'bellhop' written on my lapel? Nooooooooo... treat others as you would be treated. Lordy. E

Afterthought: Even if I was a bellhop, I'd still expect a thank you.

OK, completely different door perspective...

I remember dating a guy years back who was obsessed with the whole door thing. He opened my car door, which I thought was thoughtful (and thanked him for doing so), but when we got to the restaurant and I attempted to get out of the car, he barked at me for doing it myself! He ran around to my side and opened it and goes, "OK, NOW you can get out." I realize he was trying to be chivalrous (or in this case, score points), but I wound up feeling really ... well, lazy. I don't want to make a guy sprint. Or a girl, for that matter. If it's out of your way to do something for me, don't worry about it. Particularly when I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself. ;)

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

I am old fashoined and believe in treating a woman the right way. This is includes paying for meals, even if they are only friends, opening doors, pulling the car around front, helping move the chair in at dinner if the waiter/host isnt. But Id feel terribly uncomfortable if anything was the opposite. I dont like woman to pay for anything, or drive to dinner, or do anything a gentleman should. I think most woman dont appreciate it. They always seem to think there is somehting "up" with this guy, or he is fake, etc. Did anyone see this weeks "Real World???" -What was her problem with that guy being a gentleman??? Maybe woman do like to be treated "badly"-it keeps them interested.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

Jeffrey, dude. I believe in treating a man the "right way," too. He shouldn't have to spend every last dime on me for me to like him, should he? If I insist on paying sometimes, and he says ok, it doesn't mean he's treating me badly - it means he is acknowledging the fact that I appreciate him and want to be nice to him.

If you spend money on a girl, or open the door for her or whatever, it should be because you like her so much you feel compelled to be kind to her - not because she's weak or fragile or needs your money or your protectionk, and definitely not out of obligation because you have a penis and she doesn't.

-- Anonymous, June 29, 2000

Holly, the door test was in "A Bronx Tale." It's set in the early '60s or thereabouts and the main character, an Italian teenager asks the local mob boss, who has become his mentor, if it's OK for him to date a black girl. The mobster tells him the only thing that matters is if she passes the door test. ... The thing of it is I LOVE politeness and old-fashioned manners, but hatehatehate being patronized because of my genitalia. I agree with Heather, I think opening the door is a polite, civil thing. I often do it and I don't usually mind if others do it, I just think, "that's nice." It doesn't matter if the other person in either case is male or female, except that lots of men make an issue of it.

I seem to attract men who want me to be a lady, as in "ladies don't do this, ladies don't do that" (the pedastal comes with lots of rules and restrictions) My response is in my best Bronx accent: "Do I luk like a fuckin' lady?" I have the same thing happen when the bus comes. It gets especially annoying if the man damn near knocks me down to open the door. That's when I find it more of a patronizing gesture (since knocking me over is far more rude than letting me get the door for myself). Similarly, the patronizing guys on the bus stand in the way, while motioning me to go first, ignoring when I say "excuse me" so that I have to brush against them to get on. I stopped falling for that one and generally insist they get on first.

What really bugs me is when someone plays that "lady" line in order to get me to behave the way they want or to show some smarmy interest in me, but when I don't respond in kind, then I'm all kinds of "fat" "bitch" and "ugly." I guess that just proves that my gut is right in detecting the insincerity of the initial, surface chivalry.

When I was leaving Austin, one of the Greyhound employees made a big show of helping me with my bags (which I'd somehow managed to transport all by my widdle selwf across a couple dozen states). This happened quite a few times on my trip. I'm moving along just fine and some guy rips my suitcase out of my hands (there were plenty of times when I struggled, but I rarely got help then). The funny part is so few of these so-helpful men can operate the handle on my rolling suitcase. Usually these guys are more of a hinderance than a help, but they insist.

Anyway, I'd forgotten to get destination tags for the bags I was putting under the bus, so I asked if he had any on him. He didn't, but before I could go get some, he did. Now, I'd given him two bags for under the bus and reiterated that I needed two as he left. He came back with one and, when I reminded him I needed two, he fished another out of his pocket and said, "I brought a whole bunch, because I know women don't know what they want...they like to change their mind." Change my mind? I'd had two check in backs since Indianapolis, where I dropped some extra suitcases at my Grandma's house. Changing my mind didn't even enter into it (nor did my double X chromosome), it just was.

...

Emilie, I had a similar experience with an old neighbor. We weren't the best friends in the world, but how many fat, tall, bald, biracial women did he know that prevented him from remembering me? I've met rock stars who remembered me half a decade later because I just don't look like anyone else. We were at my favorite theater in SF, with couches. My college roomie was visiting and we arrived a bit late because we spent too much time window shopping. We got there just before the lights went off, the last open couch was a loveseat next to the old neighbor. I put my popcorn on the seat of his couch saying, "I'm just going to put that there for a minute" so we could get our backpacks, jackets, shopping bags, etc arranged. As the previews started, he picked up my bowl of popcorn, held it away from him like a dirty diaper and dumped it all over me. He pretended to face forward, but was looking at me out of the corner of his eye. I'm really not a San Francisco hippy-dippy type, but I was suddenly aware of this thick, negative cloud of energy around him and ended up moving, because I couldn't concentrate onthe movie. Luckily, some guy vacated a couch a little further up and never came back. I'm glad I did, because I enjoyed the movie, "Wings of Desire" so much it became a favorite of mine.

After the movie ended, the guy got up and said, "Boy, she made quite a big mess, didn't she?" My old roomie, who was too tangled in shopping bags and backpacks to move with me (somehow I'd practically jumped over her because I couldn't sit in his big, old pissy fog), replied, "No YOU did." That was just a weird, weird incident. He and I had never argued or anything before, just hi and bye as we left our houses.

And I thought *I* had issues.

Anyway, sorry to digress so much, but shitty manners and passive-aggressive bullshit just bug me. I want to emphasize that I'm not some wacko just waiting for a guy to dare trying to open the door for me so I can go off on him. I appreciate genuine good manners and consideration, I only have a problem when guys make it a big show, like Jan mentioned, especially when that big show makes things more physically awkward because that defeats the purpose. I do accept the open door gracefully and say thank you when it's not being done in some slimy attempt to hit on me. What really bugs me is that this tends to happen with black men, so then there's this side guilt trip about me thinking I'm too good for them because I'm "light," which I'm not especially (I am biracial and I "talk white," too, but that's another thread altogether). I hate to break it to them, but I tend to think I'm better than just about everybody. My superiority knows no color.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

Holding the door is fairly typical in the south, and also in my office building guys will let the women get off the elevator first, there's nothing you can do about it... depending on my mood I will either not notice in my hurry off the elevator, be grateful, or get pissy in that feminist way. I mean, if you are closer to the door why not just go out?

The other thing is holding the door when the woman is like twenty feet behind you. I mean politeness is one thing, but waiting for her to catch up just so you can hold the door for a perfect stranger is just a little bit off.

As for paying - I'm more of a leech than anything. I think that whoever makes/has more money should pay, since I'm usually the lesser being in that department. If all things are about equal, then splitting it is good. I sometimes get aggravated when my male friends insist on paying for the movie or dinner or whatever. Because the ONLY reason they are doing it is because I'm female; if they went with their male friends they would just split costs. The only way to get around this is pick up the tab next time.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

Here's my view on the "Door Test":

My boyfriend drives a really big pickup. It's HUGE! I can't physically get to the door lock before he makes his way to his side of the truck. Sometimes it's because of stuff on the front seat, sometimes it's because I'm wearing a dress and I'm all constricted and stuff. I try to do it when I can, but most of the time he's there before me. He did joke at me once, "You know, a good girlfriend would unlock the guy's door."

So I said, "A good boyfriend would do the dishes after he ate at his girlfriend's place, but we can't all be perfect."

Also, it took me a while to get used to unlocking his door. My last boyfriend had a remote car starter, so I just got used to the fact that by the time we got to the car, it would be open. Call me a slave to technology.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

I saw that Bronx Tale movie and it made an impression on me. I always open the car door now. I hold doors for everyone, especially elderly people.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

I don't care one way or another if strangers hold the door open for me. But I'd prefer they not let heavy doors fall closed in my face, so I guess I err on the side of door-holding.

My last boyfriend always held doors for me, opened car doors, did dishes without being asked when I cooked for him, and all manner of other polite things. We'd take turns paying for each other's dinners & stuff we did out and not quibble over coming out exactly even. And you know what, it was amazingly nice. I always felt good about him, and it made me want to do nice things for him too.

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

yeah, what's up with men waiting for women to step off the elevator first? i forget who mentioned it, but I hadn't heard of it at all until i went to college, where people acted like it was all commonplace. is this a normal courtesy that i was just clueless about? guys, do you do this? personally, i don't mind if you do or you don't allow me to go first. it's thoughtful, but if i'm way in the back of the elevator, it would be easier if you just got off the elevator and made some room for the rest of us to get out. can anybody shed any light here?

-- Anonymous, June 30, 2000

Okay, here's the deal. You get to the door before the person right behind you, you hold it open for them after you've gone through. If someone's got their arms full, or is on crutches or otherwise incapacitated, you open the door for them. Whether you or the other person is male or female is a total non-issue.

One thing I hate hate hate is when a man who's walking behind me bolts in front of me just so he can open a door and let me walk through. It's as if he thinks I'm incapable of opening a fucking door by myself. I'm a grownup. As often as not, I'm bigger than you. Give me a little credit, please.

A similar infraction, just as annoying, happens when I'm the only woman in an elevator full of men. Most of us are getting out on the same floor, and I'm at the back of the elevator, yet all the guys insist on scrunching up to let me out first, making me scrunch up to sidle past all of them before they get out. Look, you morons, this only inconveniences all of us. People closest to the door exit first. No matter who they are. End of story. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, July 01, 2000

I've never thought about it, the holding the door thing. When I'm on a date and the guy opens the door for me, it is a nice thing, but if I'm there first, it never occurs to me to NOT open the door for him. I think it is just common courtesy thing. I've seen people just stand by while watching others struggling with bags or wheelchairs or crutches while trying to open doors and THAT irritates me to no end. I've seen young, healthy young men and women sit and watch while an old woman/man tries to find a seat on the bus and/or metro and THAT also irritates me. My basic philosophy is that whoever gets there first should open the door, the youngest should give up their seat for the weakest/oldest and people should just be polite to one another. The date thing is more awkward, however. If the date goes well, we usually end up saying "well, YOU can pay next time", which is a nice way of confirming that there WILL be a next time and making everything seem fair. If the date isn't going well, I figure that whoever did the inviting should pay, whether it is me or the guy. Don't know if that is fair or not, but it seems to make sense to me.

-- Anonymous, July 02, 2000

I hate the word 'gentleman'. It implies politeness and chivalry, but at the same time it's about ancient, worn-out, sexist values and setting people apart. I'm with the people here who are - not act - polite because it's the polite thing to do. Gender has nothing to do with that. So yes, I hold the door for just about everyone, I help carry people's bags, I let them go first in the supermarket - when they have less groceries than me, that is - and I generally just treat them with the same basic respect I think we all deserve as human beings.

Oh, I have to stop now - a colleague of mine is passing around bags of chips to everyone, so I'm cheerfully munching away right now. Anybody want some?

-- Anonymous, July 03, 2000

After dozens of unpleasant incidents of this simple act of politeness being viewed as either a sexist offense or just rudely taken for granted (being completely ignored as if I'm invisible or a "lowly" hired doorman) I've learned to simply hold the door open behind me for a woman as I pass through first as I would for a man. This seems to satisfy the "old school" and keep the "womyn" from complaining more than usual. Of course, if someone (man or woman) has their hands full I will open the door and allow them to pass through first. This is simply common courtesy. As is (please note, ladies) acknowledging this small gesture of politeness in some small way.

-- Anonymous, July 05, 2000

I like it when people (anyone) hold the door open for me. Especially when I'm carrying large bundles or bags. My friend Ben always holds the door open for me, and I tell him that he doesn't have to, but he does, 'cause he's nice. And I ALWAYS make sure to say "thank you" to anyone who holds open a door to me. And smile. It's important to be polite, y'all.

Also, I always bring money on a date. And I always offer to split the bill, even if he wants to pay for it all. Or if I have done the asking, I will generally offer to pay the bill.

-- Anonymous, July 06, 2000