I just spoke to a member of First Baptist Jacksonville... of the Southern Baptist Convention... apparently the SBC is undergoing some changes...

He says they believe in Baptism as essential, and for the remission of sins...

They DON'T follow the "ask Jesus into your heart" formula...

They DON'T follow the Romans Road formula...

They DON'T believe in "once saved always saved"

The only difference in practice I could find is in their "monthly" observance in the Lord's Supper.

I was taken aback. Has any one else discovered this?

-- Anonymous, June 25, 2000

Answers

Yeah.....and do him a favor....don't reveal his name publicly.....he may not be an SBC for long!!

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

He needs to tell the rest of the denomination.

http://www.sbc.net/default.asp

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Well, I followed what the SBC did pretty closely, what, two weeks ago was it? Couldn't really avoid it, as several news stations and the Raleigh paper sent correspondents to Orlando to cover it -- one station even sent their senior anchor down there as a reporter.

Their change in the "Statement of Faith" (it's not a creed! yea, right) did a couple of interesting things:
1) they took out the philosophy of "soul compentence", i.e. the belief that any literate person can read and properly interpret the scriptures on their own
2) they took out a statement affirming "the priesthood of all believers"

Generally, they did several steps in their statement of faith that moved them away from every member ministry/priesthood of all believers toward a professional clergy solely compentent to interpret scripture and direct the body. Of course, this was overlooked by the media because of the statement of faith also added an exclusion statement on women as pastors.

I did see one report somewhere (probably on the internet) asking about this shift from "priesthood of all believers" and the spin was "we are trying to simplify the Statement of Faith".

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Yes, we always said the Southern Baptist Convention was about 50 years behind the Northern (now American) Baptists in apostacy.

But that was in our judmental phase. Now we say ALL churches had better hew to what the Scriptures, alone, say.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Actually, I don't know why you were surprised to hear what FBC Jacksonville believes, that it was similar to your own beliefs. That isnt new. The similarities are pretty striking:

- Baptism for the remission of sins.

- Individual ability to interpret the Bible without clergy approval

- Autonomy of the local church; no denominational control

- I have actually been quoted the "Where the Bible speaks, we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent" by Baptists

I could go on, but this is off the top of my head.

Now, I have to make a disclaimer: that is FBC Jacksonville. Don't expect all SBC churches to be like that. The Jacksonville church seems to be what an SBC church is supposed to be: autonomous. Unfortunately, there are others who blindly toe the "party line" from Nashville. The malarky from the recent annual convention I think proves that. The SBC is going through some serious changes. It is my guess that eventually it will become a true denominational structure, discarding its historical background.

Connie, I am kinda shocked at your statements tho. American Baptists in apostasy?? This doesnt strike me as characteristic of you. I currently am interim pastor at an ABC-USA church, and I don't see it. The big difference between the ABC and the SBC is that the ABC rejects the foolish ideas of Landmarkism and exclusivism which unfortunately many SBC'ers love to hold.

For those who don't know what that means, Landmarkism is a doctrine which states that only Baptist churches are the "true church" which holds unbroken lineage from the apostles. "Landmarkism was a movement among Southern Baptists, especially in the Southwest, which taught that the only true church was the Baptist church. All other denominations were really imposters." Exclusivism is a concept that takes dispensational fundamentalism to an extreme. Basically, it states that since we are curently int he end times, and since the established churches in the end times will be apostate, therefore any church other than Baptist is apostate. You identify the apostate churches by their failure to follow the teachings of the Dispensational Fundamentalists.

If you want to know more, and written in better detail than I have done, go here:

http://www.cbfo.org

Look for the post "Why Won't Baptists Associate With Other Christians?"

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Here is a better url for that article:

http://www.cbfo.org/newdir.htm

Scroll down the page to the "Why Won't Baptists" article.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Scott,

Thanks for the link. The salvation plan is the sinner's prayer. Definitely not scriptural.

Duane,

I have come across several people from a Baptist background that believe exactly what the Bible teaches about salvation. I was taken aback at first also.

I have also attended several Christian Churches that teach the faith only garbage.

You can not judge a church solely by its name, we must look to see if they are following the apostles doctrine.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Dr. Jon, Please understand that I went through a phase of thinking that almost NO main-line church could possibly really be Christian. My own church at home (my mother's ~ which she didn't attend) didn't really preach the Gospel, or if they did, I didn't hear it; and THAT is a possibility. Because I heard the Gospel outside the Church (over Chrisitian radio) I disdained my former church. I was quite judgmental in my immaturity. I know now that there were Christians in that church. Also, I was quite involved in that church and even lived in a Baptist cooperative house on the U. of Illinois campus (Stratford House). When I think back, there were Christians in that house, but I was not one of them. I also went to Christian camps, among them Green Lake, Wisconsin. I loved Green Lake so much that I encouraged my husband to stop there on our way back from our honeymoon in Minnesota, to golf. After becoming Christians and while attending the 'Free' church, we spent a week's vacation there, taking our then four children (and expecting the fifth). Our oldest son attends an American Baptist Church, and it is the real McCoy. (Truly Christian) In fact, that CoC member-of-the-school board at Great Lakes Christian College (Oren Huffman) has, I recently discovered, been attending First Baptist for many years. We knew him at our non-denominational but not CoC Christian School where my daughter still teaches. Back in those years, we were encouraged to think that most churches were not really Christian, and I believed that. When my children were at Lansing Christian, and were members of the Senior Choir, they would sing in the churches represented at Lansing Chrisitan. I would attend many of those services to hear my children sing and discovered that ALL were truly preaching the Gospel. Even a Catholic Church which surprised me greatly, presented the clear-cut Gospel one time that I remember. (This was at a wedding). So, confronted with proof, I had to revise what I had believed ~ that most churches do not present the Gospel. Now I know that is probably still true, because the people sending their children to our school wanted their children to have a Christian education, so they of course went to sound churches. The thing that matters is whether the Gospel is presented. I don't know why I told that about what we used to think (that the SBC was 50 years behind the American Baptists in apostacy). That was from my babe-in-Christ days. I believe there are Christians in every church, but that they should come out of apostate or dead ones. That is between God and them. I appreciate that you said that that statement was unlike me. I DO TRY to not make judgments like that, but I still fail, I see. I appreciate you, Dr. Jon.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Oh, dear.

I typed that in an e-mail to myself when I couldn't get on the Internet this afternoon, and that's the way it turned out. It doesn't look like that as I typed it.

-- Anonymous, June 26, 2000

Duane

As you may or may not remember I work as a cop. I have done so for many years now. My wife and I have been members of the Christian Church for about 33 years now. I am not a great preacher or scholar but I do preach when I have the opportunity. I "fill in" for others often. I also hold several week long meetings. I would guess it would average about 2 Sundays each month. At one time I preached mostly in the CC. That began to bother me. For me, it was like feeding the first row over and over while those that were starving continued to do so.

So, I began to pray about preaching opportunities. Very soon after that and for many years now I have preached in Baptist, Methodist, Disciples, CoG, Presbyterian and CC. This week a Baptist church that I have not been to before called and asked me to preach. Another Baptist church recommended me.( For those who are curious, My text was Rms 12.1&2, Acts 2.38 and 1 Thes. 1. 13 & 14).Title, "transformation".

I have never yet been in a congregation where there was not those that I believe were trying to live to please God. Also, I have never been where I felt that everyone believed exactly the same.I have had Baptist tell me that baptism is a part of the plan of salvation and I've had others that became angry when I even brought it up. I have also had elders in the CC tell me that it is not necessary. Have I made a difference? I think at least some. I enjoy what I am doing. I find that those I preach to are there because they have a desire to be more Christ like regardless of the name over the door. It is my job to go and preach the truth. For me, I quit worrying about the name over the door where I am invited to preach. I see people as lost or saved, being taught error or truth. Hopefully I have done some correcting, exhorting and even some rebuking that cause people to truly follow after Christ.

So, My final answer. I know Baptist that believe yes on baptism and some that believe no. But, I don't think we can lump them togeather any more than we can say all CC or CofC members agree on all things.

Sorry for rambling but this type preaching opportunity is so rewarding and very exciting to me.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

Good for you Farris!!

Keep on preaching.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

Faris -

I have to congratulate you on your obedience to your calling, and to your courage to "think (and preach)outside of the box." When I started my own ministry organization, and decided that I would not have a narrow "Southern Baptist only" availability, boy, did I create some hostility with my "brethren." But I had to be obedient to the calling God gave me, not to any hierarchal organization. And you are absolutely right. Humankind is divided into only two divisions: the saved and the lost. Nothing else matters; not church affiliation, not color, not national origin, not gender.

Thanks for the explanation Connie. I think you and I have made a similar observation. I have condensed it down to one of my few "cardinal rules:" NO ONE CHURCH HAS ALL THE TRUTH, AND NO ONE CHURCH IS THE SOLE WAY TO GOD (OR SALVATION). Another thing I discovered and use as a principle is: WHAT THE PEOPLE BELIEVE IN THE PEWS AND WHAT IS BELIEVED AND TAUGHT BY THE LEADERSHIP IS NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME THING. When I got saved, I was not a Baptist. I was a practicing Roman Catholic. Jesus Christ saved me, not the Catholic church, not the Baptist church, not the Pentecostal church. The truth contained in the Gospel led me to saving faith in the One who died on the Cross for me. No one can "claim" me as a victory. No man made organization had anything to do with it.

I was hoping my comments on Landmarkism and exclusivism would create a bit more of a stir. One of the first things which jumped out at me (and I know I will irritate some with this comment, but I am willing to take that chance) is that there is a strain of this error in the Christian church spectrum too. Whenever you think you are "right" the odds are good that you are wrong. Maybe not doctrinally wrong, but in attitude. No one person or group has a stranglehold or even a grasp on truth. Because of our fallen natures, human beings are incapable of comprehending all that is encompassed in the Bible, and be able to apply it consistently and correctly. This doesn't mean a person can't understand SOMETHING, just that no one person can know EVERYTHING.

Exclusivism appeals to spiritual pride. If you were to read or hear what is being said in the SBC right now (without partisan leanings) the pride jumps right out at you. "They" are "liberal;" "they" are "in heresy;" "they" are "{fill in the blank}." The real issue is not the real issue; pride is. And because those "at the top" war against each other in pride, the people in the pews suffer for it. Spiritual pride is hard to see, and its harder to detect in ourselves. I was guilty of it for years until God allowed me to fall on my face and see my mistake. My comment here is not an accusation to anyone, just a comment and a warning. No one is immune.

Oh, I gotta add one more thing: Before you quote Keith Green, make sure you quote the whole thing ::laffs:: Keith was always a two edged sword in his lyrics. Danny was 100% right when he quoted "To obey is better than sacrifice." But the rest of the lyric is more telling. I am quoting this from memmory, so I hope I get it right. Here is more:

To obey is better than sacrifice I don't need your money I want your life I hear you say that I'm coming back soon But you act like I'll never return

To obey is better than sacrifice I want more than Sundays and Wednesday nights If you can't come to me everyday Then don't bother coming at all

To obey is better than sacrifice I want hearts of fire not your prayers of ice And I can't help thinking how it will be If you keep on ignoring My word

One of the more important parts of the song is the chorus:

You pray to prosper and succeed But your flesh is something I just can't feed

This song was a warning about the dangerous "Name and Claim It" or prosperity doctrine which was starting to infect the Charismatic community in the 70s. AND, it was a warning to a cold and lifeless church.

Yes, it is a warning to a luke-warm church that they need to wake up. But it is also a call to the most important thing: obedience. Keith also preached fairly consistently against what he called "hootenany" style "joy services" where everyone was "happy for Jesus" on the outside but missed the mark on the inside. He condemned a major Christian event (Washington for Jesus) because instead of its intended purpose which was to call a national day of mourning and repentence for the sins of America, it degenerated into a formulaic "praise and worship" service. Its not what is on the outside that counts; its what is one the inside (I Sam 16:7).

The last line in that song is a warning to us all (remember this was supposed to be Jesus speaking to His church):

I'm coming quickly to give back to you According to what you have done...according to what you have done.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

And yes, I realize the last part was supposed to be on the "Emotions" thread!

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

Thank you, Dr. Jon,

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said.

EVERY CHURCH has its failings, because it is made up of human beings.

This spiritual pride is the ugliest kind, in my opinion. I was guilty of it at one time, so that is why I recognize it.

I think if we get our priorities straight ~ that we are left here to take the Bread of Life to the starving people who don't know where it is ~ we would be doing well. Otherwise, wouldn't we be immediately taken to His bosom upon being saved?

I am sorry for my forgetful offensiveness in saying what I did about the SBC AND the ABC. I remember that Miriam was turned leprous and Aaron was rebuked for criticizing God's servant Moses. You preachers of the Gospel and evangelists have a difficult enough time getting out the Gospel without being criticized. Any church which thinks it has a corner on the Eternal Truth of God is in for a rude awakening, however.

My prayers are with you all.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

Spelling error:

'apostasy'. I got it mixed up with 'prophecy' (the noun); 'prophesy' is the verb. My mother kind of overtaught us, perhaps, to care about spelling and grammar. (Sure! Blame your Mom!)

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

Jon,

Your comment on what is believed by the leadership and taught in the pulpit being different from what is believed in the pews reminded of a little comedy routine by a fellow grad student of mine at Virginia years ago. I think something is even more true in our churches, since in the classroom there is something approximating interchange, while no exchanges between pulpit and pews during sermons occur in most churches.

Maybe some of the more creative here can rewrite this to fit a Sunday morning sermon

Joe M's explanation of why students don't learn (unspoken thoughts in square parentheses):

Teacher: ok, and that's how you do integration by parts, any questions?

Students: No [none that I know how to articulate or can ask without looking stupid to that guy/gal two seats over that I want to ask out]

Teacher: Do you understand what is going on here? [I really don't believe they understand]

Students: Yes [you are lecturing, we are taking notes]

Teacher: [Well, I am a great teacher, still ... ] Do you think you could do this on your own now?

Students: Yes [what a stupid question, sure we could sit here and let you lecture again while we take more notes. Yes, we could do that again]

Teacher: Do you think you will be ready for a quiz on this on Friday?

Students: Sure [yes, we will be ready to fail a quiz on Friday]

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

There is a large Missionary Baptist church near here (yes, largely Black) who's minister struck up a friendship with our former pastor. Their beliefs and ours were almost identical, with one exception: They did not have a communion service every Sunday. However, this pastor after associating with ours decided to go against his denominations directives, and now they have communion every Sunday.

We had several joint services and fellowships with them. And boy, did they teach our choir how to sing!

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000