In scanning through some "non-denominational non-instrumental church of Christ sites", I came across many writers deriding some within their fellowship who have been teaching the "heresy" that the Holy Spirit is active in the lives of believers: i.e. guiding, comforting, empowering apart from guiding, comforting, and empowering that comes through the reading of God's word. These theologians were very clear--they weren't stating that the Holy Spirit only operates the way scripture states, there were saying that the Holy Spirit ONLY operates through the reading and study of God's word. Did I understand this correctly? Do they actually believe this? Patrick

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

Answers

Patrick,

Yes, they actually believe this. If you are willing to agree with some of their assumptions about what the Word meant by its phrase-ology (is that a word?) at about three points, their logic does make sense.

Do understand though that they aren't denying that the Holy Spirit didn't USED TO work like the scripture says, just that that method of operation was for use until the written Word came to complete existence and/or was available only to or through the apostles, depending on which particular manifestation of the HS power you speak of.

And I don't know your position, Patrick, but it is just about safe to say that anyone who fancies themselves a coC "theologian" would say that the written word is the "final" authority when it addresses an issue. The HS, those who believe it still operates today beyond the written, operates only within the bounds of the written, i.e. never "changes" what is written. It may operate in a way that corrects our understanding of what is written, but it doesn't change the revelancy what is written.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

I Corinthians 2:1-16: AMPLIFIED [Paul writing to the church at Corinth]

1: As for myself, brethren, when I came to you [I] did not come proclaiming to you the testimony and evidence or mystery or secret of God [concerning what He has done through Christ for the salvation of men] in lofty words or eloquence of human philosophy and wisdom;

2: For I resolved to know nothing _ to be acquainted with [nothing], to make a display of the knowledge of [nothing], and to be conscious of [nothing] _ among you except Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and Him crucified.

3: And I (passed into a state of) weakness and I was in fear (dread) and great trembling [after I had come] among you.

4: And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the (Holy) Spirit and power [that is, a proof by the Spirit and Power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],

5: So that your faith may not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the Power of God.

6: Yet when we are among the full-grown - spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding - we do impart a (higher) wisdom [that is, the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden]; but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age nor of this world or of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away. 7: But rather what are we setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God; [that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [that is, to lift us into the glory of His presence].

8: None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this; for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

9: But on the contrary, as the Scripture says, what eye has not seen, and ear has not heard, and has entered into the heart of those who love Him [that is, for those who hold Him in affectionate reverence promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed]. [Isaiah 64].

10: Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the (Holy) Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God - the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny.

11: For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

12: Now we have not received the spirit (that belongs to) the world, BUT THE (HOLY) SPIRIT WHO IS FROM GOD, [GIVEN TO US] THAT WE MIGHT REALIZE AND COMPREHEND AND APPRECIATE THE GIFTS (OF DIVINE FAVOR AND BLESSING SO FREELY AND LAVISHLY) BESTOWED ON US BY GOD.

13: And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the (Holy) Spirit, combining and INTERPRETING spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the (Holy) Spirit].

14: BUT THE NATURAL, NONSPIRITUAL MAN DOES NOT ACCEPT OR WELCOME OR ADMIT INTO HIS HEART THE GIFTS AND THE TEACHINGS AND REVELATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD, FOR THEY ARE FOLLY (MEANINGLESS NONSENSE) TO HIM; AND HE IS INCAPABLE OF KNOWING THEM - OF PROGRESSIVELY RECOGNIZING, UNDERSTANDING AND BECOMING BETTER ACQUAINTED WITH THEM - BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED AND ESTIMATED AND APPRECIATED.

15: But the spiritual man tries all things - [that is], he examines, investigates, inquires into, questions, and discerns all things; yet is himself to be put on trial by no one. He can read the meaning of everything, but no one can properly discern or appraise or get an insight into him.

16: For who has known or understood the mind (the counsels and purposes) of the Lord so as to guide and instruct [Him] and give Him knowledge? But we have the mind of Christ, the Messiah, and do hold the thoughts (feelings and purposes) of His heart.

Respectfully and prayerfully submitted,

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

The real heresy, is putting the HS into our own theolgical box. Nowhere does the scripture ever say that the HS works ONLY through scripture. If He does then why even indwell within us when we come to Christ. I firmly believe the HS DOES work in and through the pages of the OT and NT but more than that He works actively within our lives revealing HImself, CHrist and the Father more and more everyday.

Sometimes the COC goes too far the other way in an effort to not be like denominations that they invent heresies as this just to separate themselves.

-- Anonymous, June 24, 2000

"Mahalo", everyone, for your comments. I have many relatives in the CoC and I am trying to better understand them.

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

;-) ;-) ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 27, 2000

Just think of the following scenario:

A father gets his sons a bright shiny new red sports car. The salesman at the carlot said the owner's manual for the car was still being written and would be delivered lately.

The sons really enjoyed the car. they could go do things that they needed to do, like go to school in the morning, go to work, and take their friends places they needed to go.

One day, the sons came home from school to see there father taking parts off the car. He had taken off a few lug nuts, and taken off the tailpipe and muffler, and a few other parts from theinside that they couldn't identify.

The sons asked the father what he was doing. The father responded that the owner's manual for the car had come in the mail. now that they had the owner's manual, they didn't need those other car parts. After all, the car would run without two lug nuts on each wheel, adn without a muffler.

The sons were confused. While studying the owner's manual, they actually found instructions for taking care of the muffler and even the lug nuts. It was a great owner's manual.

The idea that the scripture replaces the role of the gifts of the Spirit is just as illogical as this story is. the Bible gives instructions about how gifts of the Spirit are supposed to work in church meetings. Why would the Bible give instructions for gifts that would become obsolete just as soon as the Bible was completely written? It just doesn't make sense, and there isn't any true scriputral justificaiton for it.

Some people try to say that when Paul wrote that when 'that which is perfect has come, that which is part will be done away' that Paul was calling the Bible 'that which is perfect.' One rediculous argument used to argue forthis idea is that 'perfect' there is nueter, and that Jesus would be masculine, and therefore the perfect thign must be the Bible, a nueter thing. This is a totally butchery of grammar. Reading 'the Bible' into 'the perfect' doesn't have a basis in context. There is a contextual argument to be made fo rht eidea that 'the perfect' may refer to the state of believers in the resurrection. Paul mentions tongues, prophecy and 'the perfect' in chapter 13. Chapter 14 expands ontongues and prophecy, and then chapter 15 expands on our state in the ressurection.

Besides, Paul wrote, 'What I was a child, I spak as a child. I thought as a child. I understood as a child, but when I became a man, I put away childish things.' If having or studying the Bible makes us mature, what does that make paul, a child? Would anyone alive today claim to be more spiritually mature than Paul simply because they own the Bible? I doubt most people who read and study the Bibel today have as much of an understanding of the mysteries of the gospel that Paul had.

The type of meeting the New Testament commands us to have involves the operation of the gift of prophecy. 'Forbid not to speak in tongues,' for example is a command of scripture.

Spiritual gifts, according to i Corinthians 12, are given according to the will of the Spirit. We see from Acts that they are sometimes given through apostles. In Romans, Paul mentions his desire to impart a spiritual gift to the Romans. But the Romans already had other spiritual gifts, like teaching and prophecy, though Paul ahd not yet been there.

I Corinthains 14:13 says for the one who speaks in tongues to pray that he may interpret. The passage does not tell this person to go find an apostle to lay hands n him, but rather to pray for that ability.

Scripture shows us that gifts _can_ be given through the laying on of hands of the apostles, and also that gifts can be given without an apostle being present.

Link Hudson

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2000

A-h-h! Link!

You are like a breath of fresh air! ('pneuma')

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2000

Link, be careful there are those who in this forum would love to attack you for teaching "false doctrine" that the gifts can be given without the laying on of hands from the apostles. Try to reason with them, but there is no avail, you canot reason with one who has their minds, hearts, and spirits closed to the Lord and His mighty Holy Spirit's workings in the here and now.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2000

Brothers:

The traditional RM stand on the Holy Spirit and His work has its roots in A Campbell's over-reaction to the Calvinistic mourner's bench of his own day. A.C. was a scholar of the first order and a great mind but he was caught up in the rationalism of his own age. He was so put off by any emotion that he was very cool toward such men as Barton Stone and Walter Scott. He boycotted the Georgetown meetings because he couldn't buy some of their revivalistic tendencies. Campbell would preach while standing with his hands on his gentleman's walking stick, eneer gesturing and rarely raising his voice. Overreaction is in our blood. My great grandfather was a circuit riding "New Light" over 150 yrs ago. My grandfather says that one night while listening to his father preach he shouted "A-men._ His father later corrected him saying, "We are a level-minded people. Let the Calvinists shout."

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

Interesting story. I don't think of Calvinists as shouters these days.

I Corinthians 14 would indicate that some people would have said 'Amen.' Paul asked how others could say 'amen' to a prayer in tongues that they did not understand.

A lot of people read their own ideas of order into 'Let everything be done decently and in order.' Paul's idea of order included having one prophet be quiet so another could speak, for ye may all prophesy one by one. If one of these men were speaking, and did not yeild to another who rose to speak, Paul might consider this disorderly. His idea of order included 'forbid not to speak with tongues' and instructions that messages in tongues be interpreted. His idea of order involved congregational members sharing in the meetings, and probably standing to sing solos as well. We read our own modern ideas of order into the statement 'Let eveyrhting be done decently and in order.'

Of course, if we do not allow the 'everything' to be done- speaking in tongues, prophecy, teaching and mutual edification- are we obeying the verse?

-- Anonymous, July 20, 2000

Interesing point. Actually the shouters of today are charismatic Calvinists. They have adopted Calvinistic views of conversion and charistmatic styles of worship. The various streams have sort of melted into a standard "evangelical mileau"

-- Anonymous, July 21, 2000

There are Charismatic Calvinists, but traditional Pentecostals and Holiness groups came from Methodist Revival roots. Pentecostals traditionally have believed it is possible to loose ones salvation.

-- Anonymous, July 21, 2000