On the consumerism post a lady mentioned living debt free and on only 8000.00/yr. I admire that! I have a good food storage going, started gardening this year, started raising chickens and turkeys, will probably start raising meat rabbitsand am conserving wherever possible. unfortunately we still have debts from before I started all this. How many vehicles do you own? How do you find reasonable wood stoves? We dont have any trees to cut, so would it save us anything to burn wood? We only have 3/4 acre so moving is in the future. I'm trying to make the most of our current situation while we are here. Any wisdom? Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 08, 2000

Answers

If I did not have any firewood on the property I certainly would not heat with it, the effficency even in the best stove is way below that of oil, natural gas, LPG, coal etc. As for wood stoves, I have 2 that I have been trying to give away and a wood cook stove I would like to sell (cheap). We have 2 4x4 pickup trucks and a small station wagon, 2 tractors and a whole passel of gasoline burning engines but we worked up into this and we could not live on 8K a year the way we are set up, still we are debt free.

-- Hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), June 08, 2000.

Hello, Denise. I have two vehicles. A '88 Chevy Suburban (farm truck) that runs on 5 of 8 pistons, and a mini-van (four children). My wood stove was free, and covered in rust, and sitting outside in someone's back 40. It's cast iron, and I had to replace the window glass, but it is totally buffed out now, and installed. (it's the pipe that is expensive! Class "A" pipe with all the thimbles and braces will cost ya)

I have no trees to cut, but it is pretty easy to offer to do clean- up, esp. for the elderly out in the country, and promise to haul away all wood and leave the place clean. Free wood. If you are hauling away downed trees, maybe seasoned wood. I saved a lot last year supplementing the LP with wood, and twice ran out of LP and wood was our only heat. Haven't paid for wood yet. Sometimes people even run ads in the paper trying to get rid of wood piles! Imagine that.

I have no wisdom, sorry. Get back to me in 50 years on that one.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), June 08, 2000.

Husband made our woodstove, since we couldn't find one to hold bigger logs, yet had the features we wanted. And, a properly maintained wood lot can eaisly furnish you with all of your firewood needs. Ours is small just 6 acres are so, but we buy very little outside wood, and mostly then it is done for economic reasons, costs more to take the time, gas and chainsaw wear and tear than the price of the cord. In our area propane and electric heat is by far more expensive! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), June 08, 2000.

I too have 3/4 acre. We have a woodstove, but it came with the house. We have used everything from woodboards salvaged from our roof replacement to wood given to us from someone who was moving. As for getting out of debt, I'm there too. With luck, this month I'll be able to pay off one of the credit cards, and that feels great! But it also means that my husband has had to do without his two cable channels because the cable company changed the lineup. I've also started makeing his lunch and used the money he used to use for that towards paying off the bills. My goal is to be out of debt, except for the house, in two years. We have two cars, one for me and one to get my husband to work. 3/4 is enough for fruit bushes, trees, veg garden, chickens (confined) and rabbits. Most towns ordinances will allow that. It all depends on what you are willing to do and do without. annette

-- annette (j_a_henry@yahoo.com), June 08, 2000.

Vehicle-wise we own a 96 Ford Explorer that I bought used and am still paying for we also have a 83 Subie that used to be red but has faded to kind of an orange color.

Probably the biggest expense saver that we do is that I learned to weld in the vocational high school I went to, the next biggest thing is that I learned how to be a fairly decent carpenter and cabinet maker, and I did that as an adult by going to a wood hobby shop, tinkering, and reading a whole lot of woodworking books and just digging in and doing a project, the first few (dozen) projects of mine looked horrible, but I was mighty proud of them.

You wouldn't believe how big of a percentage that labor costs take up in a finished product, for example: I built my 3 bedroom/2bath/with a family room basement myself with minimal help, I had help with the outer shell because the trusses were just too big for me alone to fabricate and erect, I also had to hire a bulldozer to dig the hole for the basement and septic tank and a well digger for that. My wife and I have built the rest ourselves including the forms for the foundation and basement. Our total cost so far is $13,500... if I had hired a contractor to build our place it would have easily gone over $80,000 to $100,000 - its taken us 4 and a half years to do it but we're almost done - only thing left is some interior finish work, finish connecting all the plumbing and to switch the power systems from a homebrew gasoline generator to solar thermal, which will cost about $5,000 in materials. Its been hard and backbreaking at times but worth it.

I guess my point is this; learn to build almost everything yourself it costs much less and the satisfaction I get looking at my home is beyond belief.

-- Dave (AK) (daveh@ecosse.net), June 08, 2000.

I drive a 10 year old Honda and we have an 8 yr old Nissan sedan. I use the Honda like a truck most of the time, but still get about 35 miles to the gallon. We borrow a truck from time to time. In exchange one summer we bought new tires for the truck as a surprise, since we had borrowed it an awful lot and they wouldn't take anything else.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), June 08, 2000.

Denise, we still owe a pittance on this property, but otherwise we are that close to being debt free. We get solicited constantly by companies who want us to buy/use/borrow whatever from them b/c we have good credit and little debt. And only one income...Weird!

One thing is to get to know everybody! We get together with neighbors, church folk, community group members (we belong to several), seniors, kids at school....just everybody. Be friendly and be a good friend. Then when you need something, put out your network feelers....you'll find whatever you need! We get free lumber scrap from the lumber yards (building and firewood), salvage materials from contractors and remodelers, free plants from people re-doing thier yard or something, free pets (don't need any more of these), free canning jars, free seeds, free fabric scraps, whatever! Did I mention free advice? Real estate, law, whatever! Just know the right people! Barter for anything else if you can.

We own an old tractor with our neighbors...split the use half the time. We have a 1979 Volvo station wagon (nearing 300k miles) that has hauled everything from sheep to sheetrock. We did buy a 94 Ford Ranger for heavier, bulkier stuff. We maintain our vehicles carefully and plan on having them for a long time. We plan our trips carefully to save gas when we can. We change the oil <3k miles.

Also doing it yourself DOES save tons of money. From doing our own construction we have also saved tons of money and built tons of sweat equity. Putting up your own food is obvious, but critical. Wear out everything and if you have to buy something, try the second hand stores first.

Good luck to you!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 08, 2000.

No 'wisdom' from a homesteader here. I'm the wanna be. The only 'livestock' on this property is a pampered canine! I do live frugaly though, by way of never hitting the mall, unless it has a thrift shop! I cook everything from scratch, hang the laundry, brown bag lunch, drive an older-just fine-paid for car. Take advantage of coupons and sales (saved $50 on Sunday) hit the 'all you can eat' for one price buffets. Barter. Junker (pick up 'stuff' to sell or use). As for the wood burning, we have a tiny house, so using the fireplace keeps the oil use way down. We picked up a used canoe for spring/summer/fall entertainment, and what fun it is! As luck would have it my best friend has a place in VT, honey's best has a place in FL! So, I'm stuck on the east coast, could be worse.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), June 08, 2000.

'99 Plymouth Neon, cheaper to buy new with 0.9% financing than to buy used - purchased to replace '86 GMC small pickup with 198,000 miles, no power steering and standard tranny ( daughter learning to drive - needed automatic, etc.). Still paying for. This is only the 5th vehicle I have personally owned in 26 years of driving - first one, an Olds Cutlass went 245,000; Ford Escort #1 - 105,000; Ford Escort #2 - 134,000; then GMC pickup.

Hubby drives a '95 Dodge Dakota, ( 80,000+ mi) which, to his dismay, has become "my" farm truck - it will haul all the manure that I am willing to load and unload at one time! Paid for.

Pop drives an '92 Caddy - paid for. I love to borrow it!

The ex just bought our daughter a Mitsubishi GT 3000. God help us all.

Pop has a '76 Ford 8600 tractor, I have a Bohlen's 18 horse, 4WD that I use in the berries,etc... and Unc (who has worked for the same Case/IH dealership for over 20 years) has a collection of M's and H's. He has brought home most of our farm equipment - generally free or very low cost. I did give $25 for my one row ear corn picker - but the guy threw in cutting down the tree that was growing up in it for me!

I owe more money than I like - don't expect to have the house paid for for another 10 years or so - depending on what Sis's college tuition sets us back. I don't stress too much about it - not like I used to, anyway. Then again, I have a better job now than I used to, too.

I have burnt skids (pallets) as fire wood before - I could get all I could haul, mostly oak. They didn't last too long, but would warm the house up to bearable, anyway.

Sounds to me like you're well on the way. I bought most of my hand garden tools and canning jars at auction - but I've always worked night shift and could go to those mid-week ones. I think I gave $5 for a hand scythe once, but most of my tools were in the $1 or $2 range. I wouldn't want to do without my hoes, garden fork and rake, post-hole digger, spade and round point shovel. Canning jars are even cheaper, especially if it's in a nice surburbia type neighborhood. I have been given clear jars by antique dealers who only wanted the blue ones in a box. Most of the kitchenware that I use has come from auctions, although I have a lot of fancy stuff packed away in the store room. Hint - clear pyrex matches everything! I've bought furniture, bedding, lamps,etc... - I almost never go over $20 on anything (1 pair of lamps that I can recall, in fact), and usually stop at $10 or way below that. I buy gifts there, too. I guess auctions are my favorite "cheap thrill"!!

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), June 08, 2000.

Raise 2 steers per year and get one slaughtered and packed for a hind quarter and the hide. Kill one deer. Can 500 quarts of fruits and vegetables. Grow corn,oats and wheat and grind feed and flour. Trade crops for gas,oil and diesel fuel. Chickens for eggs. We heat with wood and we have plenty but you can by a dead fall permit and cut in the national forest for 15.00 a year. Trade for everything you require. I can farm 1500 acreas for less than 8000.00 and trade for everything I need and eat like a king. Oh yeah, 1974 Dodge 3/4 ton, 1991 Buick Century, 1989 Pontiac Le Mans, 1977 Chevrolet Caprice and 1985 Oldsmobile Cutlass. The only ones we bought were the Buick and the truck, the rest were barter FOR SALE or Barter--Buick and Chevrolet. This homespun recipe feeds a family of 5 adults and 3 children anually.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 08, 2000.

Thanks for your responses! I suspected that the trend in vehicles would be older and paid off. That's where alot of our debt lies. We have a 97 plymouth Grand Voyager (4 kids), 98 Ford 150 ( husbands work truck), and 95 Deodge Intrepid. We owe on all of them. I dont know how to get rid of this debt and still have transportation as we owe more than they are worth. What would you do? My husbands truck is very important to him, so that one stays for sure. It makes me sick paying for them every month. The van is 485.00 per month and the car is 350.00 per month. We would need approx. 2000.00 on each vehicle in addition to what we could sell them for to pay them off. Dont ask me how I got into this because I knew we shouldn't when we did it. But my husband needed the truck to keep his job. The company didn't like him doing his job out of a van or a car. Then we didn't have the money to pay the difference on a trade in. The rest of your suggestions are excellent and I will follow up on alot of them as I am able and have the room. Our biggest stumbling block right now are these vehicle payments. Help! We dont have any credit cards, and our only other expenses are a house payment(very low) and living expenses like electric(very high in winter, 300.00+/month), water etc. I know you aren't financial consultants but feel that some of you may have had similar experience in the past. I'd appreciate your suggestions. Thanks in advance.

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 09, 2000.

Hi Denise, My first thought is that you don't need 3 vehicles for 2 people. Sell the one you use the least and apply that money to the payment(s) on the other 2. Think of the insurance money you will save also. Even the cheapest car insurance has to be close to a dollar a day, even when the vehicle is sitting idle.

Stoves: do your research and find out how big a wood stove you would need, what are the most efficient, how much they cost new, etc. Then read your local shopper papers and the newspaper for people selling them, check bulletin boards at the feed store, grocery store. My guess is that there should be some nice ones available since y2k turned out o.k. For wood, it depends on where you live. Here in Wisconsin you can buy a permit to clean up after loggers for $5.00 a year. All you need is a chainsaw, protective gear, and a truck. There must be other states with similar programs. Check with your county forestry dept. or equivalent. Sounds like you have other things under control.

Oh yeah- one of the best things you can do to save money is learn how to fix your own car. Even if you have to go to school to do it. Best of luck, Peg

-- Peg (NW WI) (wildwoodfarms@hushmail.com), June 09, 2000.

Let it be known that you will gladly accept anything free that isn't just outright trash! If someone offers you something once, and you decline, that person may not offer you something else later on. A lot of times we gladly accept stuff from people we don't want - but we either sell it, trade it, or give it to others. But what we do keep, keeps our costs down. Some of the things I have gotten for free that I kept were a fridge, an upright freezer (needed a new electric cord!), a ceiling fan that came down after a remodel, a computer, an inkjet printer, a table saw, a miter saw, 3 fence chargers, shovels, a sledge hammer, a step ladder, a 16' extension ladder, tomatoe cages, chairs, clothes, a truck load ('77 F100) of canning jars, and a truck load of lumber. And food - everything from canned goods to 1/2 of a beef to grapes.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 09, 2000.

Denise, You are what in the car business they say is "upside down" You owe more than the vehicles are worth. I noticed that one of the vehicles was a 95. Depending on who has financed them, you may be able to sell one and continue to make the monthly payments until it is paid off. To do this you have to have a loan officer willing to release the lien to sell the vehicle. They may be willing to do so with a second lien on one of your other cars. Not the greatest situation but you could apply the savings in insurance and possible be out of the three car payment situation in four to six months. It might be worth checking. Also, it takes a while to sell a car so in the meantime you may be able to double up on the payments of the car you're selling so you won't have very much residual. If two of the car notes are with the same financial insitution , they may even combine them. Car trading can be costly as we have learned. It just happens to be hubby's weakness. It can also make a lot of money it the timing is right. With car loans there are windows of value. Take your 97 Grand Voyaguer. You've taken the big "drive off the lot" hit. For a couple of years you'll be upside down. Then there will be a window where you actually owe less than the vehicle is worth. (Depending on the term of the loan) Six months after that the next year models come out, are put on sale at the dealerships and then the value of you vehicle drops drastically and you are upside down again. Generally the last year of your loan is when you build up equity in your vehicle. At that point it is disgusting to see how much your vehicle is really worth! We recently walked off a truck lot after pricing new full size trucks and could be quoted as saying "this is insane!" Two trucks would pay for 1 and 1/2 times our house! Car situations are difficult to address, but my hope for you is that you have a really friendly bank that you can work with.

-- Jennifer (KY) (acornfork@hotmail.com), June 09, 2000.

Well we live on my husband's income. We have three cars. '75 Van we paid $300 for with a blown head gasket. Joe fixed van and we have driven it for 4 1/2 yrs. '75 Truck we paid $400 for. Joe replaced engine which put us into it about $1200 over time. '80 Honda for $300 very little work. Drove for 2 years. Fixing to haul it to the dump because the clutch is out and it will cost more to replace it than the car is worth. My suggestion is that you take a loss. Sell all three vehicles consolidate remainder into a personal loan with a little extra to buy an older good used truck for hubbies work. You can consider the loss as a cheap lesson in credit. Over time the amount you are going to pay in interest for the three payments will more than cover your loss. Even at a good interest rate. Search the want ads for an older car you can pay for out of the savings and have hubby take an evening autoshop class. If you still have it sit down and look at your purchase paper work and figure out what you are paying in interest over the life of those three loans. Now at this point you should have one payment instead of three. Take two payments and apply it monthly to the balance on the loan. This will reduce your interest and pay your principle down fast. Make sure that the loan you take out has no prepayment penalty. Now I know this in contrast to the earlier suggestion of just waiting til you are right side up, but sit down and add up the interest you will pay if it only takes two years to get that way. My bet is that you would be better off just selling. Here is the sticky part of this. This will only work if you make a commmitment to swear off credit for good. Otherwise, when you get close to debt free you will be tempted to buy something again and then you will end up in the same spot. It took me going through bankruptcy before I got the picture. Don't let that happen to you.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 09, 2000.

Denise, cut your losses and get rid of the least important OR the most expensive vehicle. If your husband could use the van instead and it's closer to paid for it might work. But then men are hard to seperate from their trucks! Me too, for that matter. I have a '77 Chevy full size and a '76 Mail Jeep as a back up. I don't keep insurance on the Jeep, but I keep it running and it's a "just in case" vehicle. It was $600 5 years ago and my pick up was $2,000 three years ago. Cheap parts, easy to work on without all the bells and whistle tools, make sense to the parts changer that I am as opposed to the truly skilled mechanic that I am not!

As for meat, I am a vegetarian and I promise it is way less expensive to eat beans and rice for your protein than meat unless you hunt and then that depends on license expense. Try some substitution odf vegetarian meals to replace the meat 3 nights a week or so and apply that money to your debt. Just a thought....My Dad doesn't think he has been fed unless he has had meat.

If you are not paying too much for what you have and don't have terribly restrictive ordinances it would probably be best to stay where you are. Interest rates just went up again and too much debt will make it hard to get a good deal on a new mortgage.

As for the wood, it depends a lot on your climate but you sure can scrounge wood easily and it could augment your heating and cut that cost back. Also, used blankets are cheaper than heat any day!

Lots of good answers for you to garner some wisdom from, I am not wise, but I've gotten better at learning from others experiences and avoiding my own expensive lessons. I have a formula borrowed from some movie or other...without a plan there is no attack, without an attack there is no victory! Add a bit of flexibility and before you know it there you are! Good luck!

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 09, 2000.

Strong advice from Eric and Doreen, I agree ! All the other opinions had a lot of merit. I've been down the road that LBF mentioned. I can only ad something my father told me when I was 20. THE BANKER IS NOT YOUR FRIEND !!!!! He has an agenda and it is not suited for your interest in mind--he is paid by your interest.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 09, 2000.

Joel, I should have put "friendly" in quotes. I do have several banker friends. They are out to make money just like everyone else and i don't fault them for that. But if they know you and trust you they may be willing to do more than a finance officer in a huge bank that doesn't know you from Adam. Little Bit has the best way, but sometimes it is hard or impossible to go cold turkey!

-- Jennifer (KY) (acornfork@hotmail.com), June 09, 2000.

Hi everybody! Thanks again for your responses. Had a long talk with my husband this morning. We've decided to take Little Bit's advice about the debt excluding the truck. He finally has what he wants and isn't willing to part with it. We are going to try for a family loan as ther wont be any interest. I would like to get another van. What years should I be looking for, so that I can actually work on it myself. I think I will buy a book of some sort to learn some basic repairs and maintenance. Any recommendations? I think we have a lot going for us according to what you have suggested. Already veg. but will eat the meat we raise here this year. This is our first year. my husband is a construction super so he can build and do home repirs for us. I do need to start networking to be able to start all that wonderful bartering you all have mentioned. I have an in law that owns the local feed mill so that would be a good start. I feel more confident about getting wood from your responses. I hope I can get that going by winter. I buy 3 newspapers each week for the coupons and only use them on sale items and buy 3. That saves 50% or more on the groceries I dont buy from the coop. We are definitely weak in the area of auto repair, we dont even change our own oil! I guess that has to change. I'm really trying hard. Thanks for your encouragement. Denise

-- Denise (jphammock@earthlink.net), June 10, 2000.

Good for you!!! Now, can you get the newspapers for free? (see, it becomes addictive!)...get them from a neighbor or how about at the laundromat at the end of the day when folks leave their papers behind, etc., etc...!! You might want to keep notes about your endeavors so when you look back you can just beam from your accomplishments! You'll be amazed...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), June 10, 2000.

Good for you, Denise! I am praying that all goes well for you. Has any one tried burning Newspaper logs to cut down on their wood consumption. Lots of people will save them up for you if you ask. I used to have problems making them because most instruction recommend using string to tie them with. This never worked for me, as the string burnt off and the paper unrolled. Then I read somewhere to use wire to tie them with. This way they burn without unrolling. So simple. I even found a recipe in a book for making newspaper logs that burn pretty colors for gifts.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 10, 2000.

There are plenty of places to download coupons on-line and you don't need to buy the newspapers. I can even get my small local paper for free on-line, maybe you can too. Good luck.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), June 10, 2000.

When I was in Iowa, they taught a "Basic Home and Roadside Automobile" class at the local Jr. College. Cost 10 dollars and lasted 2 nights a week for 6 weeks. Pretty basic stuff but that is where you start. At least no "shady mechanic" could sell you a kanoooter valve or muffler bearing. Most mechanic prices are negotiable and many don't know that. Stay clear of dealerships or you'll be paying the interest on their new car inventory. Local High School shops are a good place to have your vehicle worked on if they have a qualified instructer. GL

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 11, 2000.

A kanooter valve, mine went out once! Man, I have never heard that one.

Denise, as far as vehicles that are easy to work on, pretty much any pre-"computer brain" American car. Engines that are SUPER common, ie. Chevy 350, Ford 302, AMC 232, Chevy 292, those would be my suggestions in descending order of parts cheapness and avaiability. For a van, I really don't know. I believe the Chevy 350 and the Ford 302 are in vans, but perhaps someone can verify that for me. Never really liked vans so I haven't learned anything about them.

Good luck, and doesn't it feel good to make a decision?

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), June 11, 2000.

Yes, Kanoooter valves are a most impressive part ! In fact, you might say that shady mechanics are the only people that can "make up" enough reasons to install one. They require some pretty rare tools. They must be lowered in with a "sky hook" after being lengthened by a "board stretcher". This task can only be performed after changing the stale air in the tires(including the spare) with a hand pump. A small steering wheel must be installed so the mechanic is able to test drive the vehicle with handcuffs on ! Your average kanooter cost about 3000 dollars installed. Please make sure that is the problem before going to all this trouble first. If you do find you need one--please call me first !!!

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), June 11, 2000.

A regular customer walked into the teahouse a few years ago. She looked like she was in shock. "I just bought a new car," she told me, awed. "You mean, like off the LOT?!" I asked. She nodded. "What kind?" "A Geo," she replied. "Oh, one of those fuel-efficient little Metros...?" "No. The luxury model," she said in a stunned voice, "I need chocolate!" I fixed her up with a luxury model piece of chocolate cake. Some months later, I saw her again. "How's that new car of yours?" I asked brightly. She looked at me with a pained expression. "My teenage son totalled it the second month we had it. And I STILL have to pay for it! I'll NEVER buy a new car again!! When I called my parents about it on the phone, they were quiet on the other end and then my mother said, chuckling, 'You know, we're really enjoying this!'"

Me, I've never actually owned a vehicle that was even so new as the last decade. It's just transport. I've got an 88 ranger now, and I love it.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), June 11, 2000.

Littlebit, I've had varying amounts of success using cardboard tubes to hold the newspaper logs together. I've used everything from toilet paper rolls, to the heavy duty rolls newspaper comes on. And I've tried to use wire too, but wasn't too happy withthat since I had to buy the wire to do it... The toilet paper rolls seem to work the best around for me, as long as I add them ot the fire in moderation.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), June 12, 2000.

I haven't ever thought of using cardboard tubes for this. Neat idea. As for the wire I usually just use bailing wire and recycle it by sifting the ashes. A magnet does a great job of fishing old wire out of ashes. Another idea is old hangers.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), June 12, 2000.

Hi, Denise. Just a few thoughts, here. If your number one goal is to be debt free, be very careful approaching the homesteading projects. Sometimes, raising your own can actually cost more, particularly if you don't have pasture, etc.. For instance, I used to have chickens and sell a lot of eggs. I kept careful track for a whole year, and after having to buy all of the feed, and selling the extra eggs for $1 a dozen, I broke even, financially, and got my own eggs for "free" but that didn't take into account the work and gasoline to haul feed, etc.. It also would not figure in any start- up costs. I guess what I am saying is, if something will cost MORE than buying it, it might be best to buy and store what you need until you get out of debt. We have raised 6 children on 1 income. We make a lot more than the $8000 now, but the first at least 12 years were just "hand to mouth". We gardened, canned, stored as much food as we could, had milk goats, and later chickens and actually raised a couple of calves when we had pasture and could start them on goat milk. I only bought things when I was forced to - and then at thrift stores. The children wore hand-me-downs, and had very little for a long time, but you know, they look back now and have only happy memories. No child will ever write home and say,"I have such fond memories of the claw footed bathtub we had". No, they remember that we took time for them. They remember sledding, playing, being read to, hugged and loved. We had one car for the first 12 years, and didn't get a pick up until considerably later. That was inconvenient, but we managed. I cut hair, used cloth diapers, nursed the babies, we never went out to eat, enjoyed singing together (I remember us all snapping beans and singing - what a time we had). I think my policy was just never to spend any money that I wasn't forced to! Good luck. Sorry to ramble on so. If you have any questions....

-- Yolandab6 (ybereiden@peoplepc.com), June 13, 2000.

Does anyone know if using rolled-up newspaper "logs" is healthy for a certified woodstove? Or will it clog the catalytic converters or kanooooters or whatever?

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), June 13, 2000.

Local schools should offer Vo-Tech classes is car repair, as wellas many other useful skills, and would be an investment that would easily pay for itself the next time your mechanic see's gremlin prints in your engine grime. (I actually had a mechanic tell me my car's mainfraime computer had gremlin prints in it after trying for 3 weeks to find out why it kept blowing the mass air flow sensor.) (Tongue in cheek, of couse) Also consider continuing ed., as classes on everything from underwater basketweaving to kanooter valve grinding are taught at fairly cheap prices. Also, to decorate on the cheap, haunt the best upscale home deco stores like Pier 1 and the like, because they throw out the most unbelievable stuff for the pettiest reasons. I now have a redwood arbor bench on my back porch ($300 easily) that was pitched because of a busted piece of trellising that I fixed with a wood staple (try and find it) and a$200 "Persian" rug that was thrown out because (are you ready?) the fringe was too short on one side. Can you say "Who gives a..." our whole house has really nice, free or nearly so stuff all over it. Just because it's trash doesn't mean its garbage!

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), August 08, 2000.

Its exciting to see how everyone else is getting along and the things they are doing to save money. We have a house that will be paid for in the next five years and are planning to sell to our oldest son we also have ten acres of unimproved property that we are planning to move onto as soon as we can. As for cars the payment is only a drop in the bucket you need to factor in the insurance and maintence. My son has a 96 truck his payment is 300.00 a month and insurance is 300.00 a month then there in oil gas and tires figure 100.00 a month thats 700.00 a month on a five year old truck give me my old car it cost 800.00 used with less tha 60.000 miles it will go anywhere I need to go and think of what I could do with the extra 700.00 Im not spending on a newer car. good luck to all

-- ronda (thejohnsons_doty@hotmail.com), August 21, 2000.

1:i am a printer monday-whenever they tell me to stay home. 2:i am the junk yard dog satuday 8a.m.-2p.m. 3:go to the dump(recycling center).i get clothes,(nike,addidas,etc.) what we can't use goes to goodwill,i have gotten exercise equipment, (used very little), bikes,toys,furniture,a log splitter,ceiling fans,doors..........if i wanted to ,i could fill a small barn with canning jars(some blue ones too),lawn mowers,snow blowers,minibikes,go-carts..........the only time my teenagers want to talk to me is saturday afternoon.i could get enough windows to build a greenhouse.one thing i don't take home is food,if it's frozen it goes to a local wildlife refuge.one more thing........you would not believe how much beer people bring us JYDs.

-- fred in wi (sixuvusmeyers@aol.com), November 28, 2000.

If husband is in construction,do you live in a fixer upper now? We built equity by buying places that were sound but needing work. Fixing them while we lived in them,going to auctions to get the building supplies,then selling them when it came time to move.We worked hard, lived rough sometimes, did without nicities alot,but now own our 200 acre farm free & clear,w/o any other debt.Getfamily commitment to fixing up,signed in blood! That's what I did-no hunting & fishing breaks allowed til the house was finished,well, not too many,anyway! Good luck.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 28, 2000.

Well I was surprised to see this thread again! I thought I might give you an update as we have made some progress. We are out of car debt per Little Bit's advice except for the truck. My husband has chosen to keep that debt as this is the truck he has wanted for so long.

We refinanced our home at a better rate and are paying extra toward the principal each month. So we are saving money there also and putting the money saved toward paying down the mortgage and getting out from under faster.

This is alot of progress considering that my husband doesn't have the same frugal leanings that I have. But he is a nice guy and humors me as much as he can. He thinks I've picked up some very interesting hobbies ie: food storage, couponing, various food producing animals etc. He's fine with it as long as he doesn't have to go out in the cold to care for them!

The real progress will happen when my mother retires and we combine our assets. Hers is paid off and our will be by then. That's whan we get our homestead and combine womanpower. This will also take care of things when the time comes for my mother to need extra care when she is elderly.

Well thanks for all the great advice and for being such nice folks! Pray and/or cross your fingers that our plan works. I'm really looking forward to it.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), November 29, 2000.

We are making progress, too. We've got the credit cards paid off, and a good possibility that oldest daughter and son-in-law will finally pay off the car they'd "bought" from us several years ago, then daughter wrecked it and we ended up with the payments again as they didn't have any insurance. That will leave us with one car payment and the mortgage, and if, as we hope, we are able to sell the house in the spring, those will both be paid off. Then we can start debt-free on a new place, Lord willing. We are picking up the tools, equipment, and some of the livestock we will need now, as we figure this is like having money in the bank. And of course, if the house doesn't sell as fast as we hope we'll still have stuff we can use here.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 30, 2000.

Well with my calculations the amalgomation of the suicide tendencies are indubitably out of the question with senior vice presidents vocationary evaluation are just an outrage!Sanctions of the hipocracy are dubeous. So to make a long story short I do agree with circumsision?

-- Janice Mcloed (day_go16@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.

I love these money saving topics, I only wish the people who add this gobbly-gook to these threads would stop. I've noticed several like this today. Denise, hope you are doing well.

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), September 27, 2001.