I am deciding what breed (or mix of) sheep I would want. I know good & bad points of certain breeds (I've narrowed it down and may develop my own breed 20 years down the road)(ha ha). My first question is on shearing. What areas (on a sheeps body) have waste wool? If something can be done with this waste wool, what would it be?

My second subject is on smarts. Many will get some laughs on this one. Has anyone really tried to test the intelligence level on sheep? Can sheep be as smart as goats? Goats have been trained to pull small carts/wagons, & to be a pack animal (for hikers/campers). Has anyone even thought of trying this with a hair sheep? I know it sounds dumb, and many (or all) of you are probibly rolling on the floor laughing now. But think about it. Many people thought (or still think) that donkeys & mules are stupid & stubborn. Why? Because they won't pull a load? Maybe they know they can't pull it so won't bother exerting themselves. Or they are just smart enough to get out of working at all. It's negative examples, but it shows they were thinking (there for a little smarter then some once thought). Maybe, sheep are smarter then we think they are (just a little). Any thoughts?

Thanks

animalfarms (In)

-- animalfarms (jwlewis@indy.net), May 21, 2000

Answers

Sheep are smart enough, but they are generally very much ruled by their instincts, and their instincts are very much those of herd animals. If you understand this, and have partience, you can get along with sheep just fine: if you don't, you become one of the people who get frustrated by sheep, and call them stupid. Me - I'd hate to think I couldn't think my way around what sheep are going to do most of the time. Pastoralists have built on this, shepherds count on sheep acting that way, sheep have been bred to suit. There's a name for a sheep that begins to show initiative: it's "Lunch".

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), May 21, 2000.

Waste wool, usually parts of the butt, the tops of the legs, and belly. Depends on how clean the sheep is and what it has gotten into since the last shearing. Some sheep you'll be able to keep the entire belly, others you'll trash the entire belly, most are in between. If you get the fleece of in one piece (so you can lay it out like a sheepskin rug-unless you use the spine down technique) you generally go around the edges and do what is called "skirting". That removes the butt wool, leg wool and what was the middle of the belly (the lowest part while the fleece was still being worn). Every fleece is different. Every sheep's fleece changes from shearing to shearing, especially when you've got a color sheep. The wool in different areas in addition to differing amounts of trash, has recieved different amounts of wear and sun bleaching. Different areas of the sheep also have different lengths and qualities of wool. There can also be varying amounts of kemp. Ram markers wash out with differing amounts of success.

What to do with it. Some people send the skirted fleece to a commercial carding mill so the good, bad, and indifferent wool are thoroughly mixed. Others sort each area of fleece and spin each type with the appropriate method and use it for different purposes. You can also pitch it. Usually a hand-spinner's flock doesn't have a lot of waste wool because the flocks are fairly small and they recieve a lot of attention. Otherwise waste wool can be used for mulch, felt if it isn't too nasty, picked apart and set out for the birds, and possibly sold-but very chancy and probably wouldn't pay your gas to get it there. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Sheep most certainly can be trained to harness. An eight sheep hitch was the highlight of the parade at the World Sheep Festival in Bethel MO during the mid 80's. I know because a picture I took of them appeared in an '85 or '86 issue of what is now Small Farm Today. I have a little ewe right now who is really low on the pecking order but she's as tough as nails and survives very well on her wits. She will go out alone to graze and is very observant of her surroundings despite the fact that we have Pyrs. She comes when called by her name to get treats--the others get treats but don't come when called--and she's a killer to shear because she can dodge and wiggle so well. I used to think sheep were pretty dumb until I adopted Ewenice as a month old bummer. She was raised around goats and Pyrs before I got her and when she saw my other sheep she didn't know what they were. She hangs around with them now but she's her own little herd of one when it means surviving. I always worry about her getting enough to eat but she comes up as fat as the others when I feel spines and ribs. For the record, Ewenice is Romney x commercial white face.

My grandfather farmed with horses until I was old enough to remember the dark day when he sold his last team. He said he would never use a mule because it was too smart and could hold a grudge. He said a mule would serve well for 20 years but on the first day of the 21st year, it would just as likely kick your brains out. I've since seen mules where I would agree with Papa but I've also seen some that were exceptionally dependable. Same with horses. So, why group all sheep and all goats as being stupid or stubborn too?

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), May 21, 2000.

I spend a lot of time with my sheep, and they all have unique personalities. Many of them know their individual names and will come when called. I can't quite understand why we call people who don't think for themselves "sheep" especially, since my flock members are smarter than a number of folk in my community! Still, I can't quite feature them doing any organized form of work (in harness, or whatever) but they do have a lot of heart and would maybe at least TRY!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 21, 2000.

I have heard alot of animals refurd to as dumd,Had a chicken once who was very smart,I have noticed the animals who get a lot of one on one attention from humans seem much smarter then the ones that dont. Maybe they have just learned how to put up with us better. Never been around a mule but my husband has and he says they are one of the smartest animals he has seen!There is a monologe in the original movie doctor dolittle about animals that is great.Try the sheep what have you got to lose?

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), May 21, 2000.

Who knows maybe they can spell better, that is suposed to be dumb not dumd.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), May 21, 2000.

Thought I'd add a bit about getting some useful work out of the moth eaten little hayburners. You have to be careful not to choke a sheep whether you've got it harnessed to a cart or have a pack on it. There's a reason they rope goats and not sheep. Sheeps' necks aren't very strong and it is easy to crush their windpipes. So any harness going across their chests has to be kept down low on the fronts of their shoulders. If they've got severely docked tails you'll also have problems using cruppers.

Sheep are also followers, not leaders. Usually there's one old ewe in any size flock who has the gumption to lead, and all the rest follow her. That will make it a bit tricky to sit in a cart and drive a sheep. It will be easier to lead a sheep harnessed to a cart.

Some sheep are smarter than others. All the former bottle lambs answer to their names (and a few other things). The bottle lambs have been socialized more to people than a typical flock sheep. That would make it easier to train a bottle lamb or other socialized sheep. All my sheep love leaves and branches. Only one has figured out how to get his own supply. He will stand up on stuff (front legs only, unlike a goat) and then wait for the wind to blow a branch his way. Once he gets a hold on the branch, he doesn't just rip off the first leaf and let go, he hangs on and scrunches as much of the branch as he can into his mouth before giving one big rip. None of the other sheep have even attempted to do what he does. On the other hand, I nearly lost a ewe once. She had stuck her head through the woven wire fence since we all know the grass is always greener there. She was back in some brush where I couldn't see her. When I found her she was nearly dead from exhaustion and lack of water. In her frantic scrambling to get free she hadn't just torn up the grass under her feet, she had dug a large sloped hole a good 10" deep at the lowest point. I assumed her head was caught somehow and ran around so I could come at her head and free her. She saw me coming, her eyes got big, and she took one lousy step back-all she'd ever needed to do. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Hello, If you really want a smart sheep,, get Jacob`s of the Puddleduck line. They are smarter than most people you meet in public! They don`t panic, and they get themselves into something, they will get themselves out without getting hurt. Is rather impressive to watch. You could just about see them thinking... hummm ..

My Brecknock Hill`s are pretty smart, but tend to blindly panic if dogs or such try to take them out.

The Babydoll`s are very sweet,, but are not too smart,, but the only breed of sheep I have had that will lookup at airplanes passing in the sky,, and follow the planes until they can`t see them any more.

None of these breeds have ever gotten their heads stuck in the fence. But my dad`s Suffolks,, are soo dumb, they get their heads stuck in the fence,, they won`t even try to back out,,they would stay there is starve!! Good luck in what ever breed you wish to get.

-- Bergere (autumnhaus@aol.com), May 22, 2000.

Gerbil

What about wool anywhere on the leg, or face? (Some breeds have forlocks or wool around the eyes.) I'm mainly interested in meat type breeds, but (20 years from now) am willing to create one (very large, heavy muscle, strong bone NOT fine boned, that can be crossed later with hair breeds for those wanted for use in harness or packs) to suit my needs. Who knows, if I'm lucky, I just might find a good cross that others (for meat purposes) might want. Now we're renting (husband just retired from Marines), but hope to buy property soon. I'm hopeing for at least a heavy traffic road so we (kids 1 & 3 years husband has city job) can start small with garden/road side stand, working up to a market garden, small orchard (mixed trees, bushes, vines, & brambles), some animals (a few of everything), some exitic animals (with lisence Muntjac deer, Reindeer, & maybe some kind of antelope), & if I'm lucky maybe some honey bees. Of course this is all long term. Right now I'm getting all the info I think I'll need, & decideing what I want and how to do it. For example with the deer, I'm thinking some people would like to buy venison (offered frozen at stand) for one of several reasons. They might want to try some without buying (or hunting) the hole animal. They might have gone hunting & come back empty handed. Or they might not want to hunt but still want some venison (might not have a friend to offer them some from their hunt). Some may not like the taste of any kind of venison except farm raised. And I thought it might move (before freezer burn) a little faster at a road side stand (steady traffic of customers) then just advertising alone. But again, this is onle one of many ideas to do on small scale (only increasing on demand). My best bet is that fruit & vegies sell best. (Yes I plan to be state certified/lisenced/or what ever is needed to butcher USDA approved.) If something doesn't work I'll sell & try something else (I've a lot of ideas to fall back on).

It's good to know that someone in the past has trained sheep for more then the show ring (being led by a halter, to stand still). I would want to see those pictures.

As for the later post about being careful with the neck, I know a place that makes different types of harness & packs for dogs (sled dog gear). Harnesses are made to fit around the shoulders & between the front legs (keeping it off the neck). Packs are similar. Wagons, carts, harness, packs, & some other gear would work well (in my opinion) on any sheep (sheared or hair breed) or goat.

I'm looking forward to more responses.

animalfarms (In)

-- animalfarms (jwlewis@indy.net), May 22, 2000.

There generally isn't all the much wool on sheeps' heads and legs. It is also different from the wool on the rest of their bodies-shorter, different texture. That's why it can work if sent to a commercial carding mill or if you have lots and lots of time to spread it thoroughly into the good fleece and blend it well. But most handspinners will discard it. You can skirt and put the leg wool in a bag, the head wool in another bag. Then keep adding the same wool from every fleece, whether it takes years of shearing one sheep, or one year of shearing a lot of sheep, until the bags have enough of one type of wool to spin. Generally you'll need to do a highly twisted yarn from it since it will probably be a short stapled wool. The biggest reason the head and leg wool isn't much good is that it can be so dirty and matted. Sheep love to rub their heads, they stick their heads into their mangers, etc. There tends to be more vegetable trash in the wool, and it can also be matted from the rubbing. The leg wool is full of vegetable matter and maybe burs from being in deep pasture and from laying down. Same with some of the belly wool. Every sheep is different, some have better wool even on the waste areas, some can get filthy dirty and bur-covered anywhere, anytime.

What are you trying to accomplish with a heavy-boned sheep? Bone is slower growing and takes a lot of nutrients to produce. It not only drains nutrients away from meat production, it also takes up room in a way, reducing the amount of meat. If you're worried that a spindly-legged sheep is going to snap its legs when used as a pack animal, a healthy thin-boned sheep won't have as many problems as a less healthy thick-boned sheep. The thin-boned sheep will also be able to mature earlier. We've got one old sheep we estimate weighs in at around 200# (without scrap metal). Huge for our sheep. His spindly little legs managed to get him 4' up in the air and through a 18/20"W x 24" high window opening from a standing position the other day. 2.4 for artistic expression, but a solid 10 for technical merit.

I'm not really sure why you want to cross wool and hair sheep. Hair in wool is basically called kemp. Downgrades a fleece savagely. A cross of a hair and a wool breed would leave you with at most a meat or pack animal, the fleece would be gone. As far as I know, all hair breeds are like mine, they shed and aren't suitable for shearing. In fact, they shed like dogs. A fairly nice but very short downy wool undercoat and the hair outer coat. There are no reasonable (and few unreasonable) ways to get the hair out of the wool, which isn't much for spinning anyway. Even if you did manage to seperate the wool and hair, the wool is not worth it. Plus like dogs, they shed a bit at a time. You'd be brushing them constantly (and I do mean CONSTANTLY) through the shedding season to recover everything. It is possible that there are still some commercial de-hairing mills that might take your collection of brushings and at least try to seperate the hair and the wool. But if you've got a longer wool crossed in, I don't know if the mills would even try it, or succeed if they did. Plus the cost of the mill work and shipping both ways. As is, the only thing I know to do with hair sheeps' coats is to spin it and weave or knit it into underwear for someone you really dislike. The yarn isn't usable even for outerwear otherwise. It has some (small) hope as a rug yarn, but it isn't fun to work with, requires a tremendous amount of twist, and dyes poorly.

Generally hand spinners concentrate on fleece, market lamb raisers concentrate on meat, and hair sheep raisers wish their sheep weren't so distinctive looking that everyone for miles knows where to return escapees. You can try for a balance between fleece and meat production, or meat and work (which hair sheep might have something to contribute to), but all three uses aren't very likely. If I were to try it, I'd stick with crossing wool and meat breeds and forget about the hair sheep. Either butcher or castrate the excess males and keep them shorn for work. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 22, 2000.

Gerbil

I'm not trying to combine hair & wool breeds yet. I want to just work with wool/meat breeds first (getting a strong combination with good meat/muscle). And only when I want one for work will I cross (some not all ewes) with hair breeds, to get a smooth non shearing coat. Only on these working sheep will I not care about wool, as I don't want to shear them. The other sheep will have good wool for shearing (therefore I needed to know what is basicly worthless in wool). I don't beleave a pure hair sheep (even Dorpers as they seem to have the best size/muscle compared to other hair sheep breeds) has enough size/muscle compared to some wool meat breeds. And it will be hard to keep my working sheep constantly sheared compared to not having to shear a hair breed.

animalfarms

-- animalfarms (jwlewis@indy.net), May 22, 2000.