I know there's a lot of articles on guns in other homesteading magazines. I've tried to understand them, but have no clue. Please walk me through (simply!). Where do we start? We are thinking the usual homestead uses like marauding raccoons, etc. and maybe somewhere down the road, security. Help! I hope you all have lots to say on this.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), May 18, 2000

Answers

A .22 rifle is good for small four-legged varmints. It does the job, ammo. is fairly cheap, and it doesn't make a lot of noise. Also, the bullet won't keep going forever and possibly hit something you didn't mean to hit. Probably everyone will have something different to recommend for protection against two-legged varmints, we have a .44 pistol (originally purchased so my husband could carry it when in bear country in Alaska, without having to lug a big rifle everywhere). I've never used it, and would prefer to have a shotgun handy, but my .30-30 will have to do. Guns aren't really difficult to handle, once you get the basics from somebody who knows what they are doing. They are just a tool, and have to be handled with forethought -- like any other tool.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 18, 2000.

My #-1 choice over the 30 years on the homestead has been a .12 gauge shot gun, the will shoot slugs, which will take deer and bear, low brass shot for small game, 00 back for predators at a range up to 25 yards. A .22 rifle will do the same thing tho and ammo is cheaper but not as versatile.

If I had to buy one gun for my homestead, (Now) I would have a Savage .223 or 30/30 over/under with a .12 ga. barrel on the bottom, in fact I plan to trade off a few of my guns and get one.

-- Hendo (redgate@echoweb.net), May 18, 2000.

Jean, I posted a reply to your other post about security... but again, if I could only have 1 gun, it would be a 12 Ga. because of the versatility and the myths surrounding the venerable 12 Ga. If you're looking for strictly a defensive gun, I like the Winchester Defender (basically a Winchester 1300 pump action with an 18.5" barrel and a 5 round magazine). I usually keep mine with 2 rounds in the magazine. The first round to be fired is a load of #6 shot (figure I might be a little nervous and the spread of the smaller shot may help me hit sorry @#@$%#@$! since it'll fan out faster). The second round is buckshot.

Then I have another 5 rounds of buck shot that's on the stock of the gun (I forget the brand name but it's an elastic / nylon combo that slips over the stock and holds extra shells for you). That way I only have to grab the gun, and not search around in the dark looking for more ammo!

And by all means, contact the local gun shop and see if the NRA is sponsering any safety classes in your area!

-- Eric Stone in TN (ems@nac.net), May 18, 2000.

Jean, I responded on your other post, too. I agree that the 12ga is a good home defense gun, particularly the Winchester model mentioned. If you are going to carry, concealed, then you have another set of options and that list is as long as there are choices: LONG. If you opt for the 12 ga, please practice handling/firing it safely. It has a kick to it, which you have to be prepared for, even if shooting bird shot. Good luck, and I look forward to more posts, so we can all learn more.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 18, 2000.

Jean, I grew up with my Dad & my brothers teaching me how to shoot & care for guns! Everytime my hubby buys another gun for his collection- -he makes for sure I know everything there is to know about it! My 22 is my favorite! But, I have a choice if I need to use something else! Our old neighbors had truck trouble, got it burried in a snow drift, one neighbor got the other one on horse back-- I saw them comming down the road when the dogs were barking. The next day, I asked why they didn't cut through our pasture instead of going the long way around? They said, they knew my hubby was at work & they knew what a good shot I was --it was no problem to go the long way around!ha! Know how to shoot & care for what ever you choose! Take instruction from someone who is knowledgerable about guns--practice with it until you feel comfortable with it! Then respect it & what it is capable of doing! (my Dad always said , gun control was being able to hit what ya shot at!ha)

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 18, 2000.

Jean-

I'm with the others on the 22, the 12 gauge, and the 30-30. If you don't want several guns, 1 or 2 of these 3 would suffice. I personally am also fond of a 410 gauge shotgun. The shells are somewhat expensive as compared to 12 gauge (when comparing price to firepower), but this is the gun I use the most. Good for hunting small game as well as killing the smaller predators (or larger, grizzlies, mountain lions, etc. excluded, if using slugs). N Mays

-- N Mays (mays@raptor.afsc.k12.ar.us), May 18, 2000.

Jean, I vote for the good old 410 shotgun, it does not kick like a 12 gauge and being a small woman, I don't like a gun that sets me back on my heels. I use 410 slugs to shoot anything big, i.e. a big dog after my goats. I disagree about 22 rifles not going a long distance unless the person was talking 22 shorts and I wish someone would tell me where to find them! A 22 long bullet will go a long long distance and you must be very careful where you are aiming. I have a 22 single shot rifle and a 410 single shot shotgun and they have been all I have ever needed for varmits. Please practise cleaning, shooting and handling a gun many times with help from an experienced gun person. Several times in my life I have taken a gun from a frantic friend who was going to shoot me or her, when they really were trying to shoot a possum. I had the joy of all brothers,who taught me how to use a gun safely, that with credit to the BB gun club i belonged to as a child. I'll let Joel Rosen tell you about security guns, he has much more knowledge about that aspect, I use dogs for security. Good luck and remember to learn gun safety first. karen

-- Karen Mauk (dairygoatmama@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

Jean,

I opt for a Great Pyr dog as the first line of defense. Guns are great, but only after a critter is a problem (ie in your chicken coop eating your chickens). Where we live bear are also a problem but with my two great Pyrs we have lost only 1 chicken (to a coyote at the end of last summers drought) in the year we have been here. Never had an attack on sheep and we were told they were virtually impossible to protect from predators in these mountains. Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), May 18, 2000.

I've read that the best protector against the 2-legged variety is a 12 gauge pump-action shotgun. Something about the unmistakable sound of the slide pump moving the round from the sleeve into the chamber that will send most invaders scrambling ...if it doesn't, then you have plenty of fire power. I keep a .22 around for pests and have a .32 automatic which I haven't fired in 25 years! I should probably see if the ammo is still good!! But the gun I use the most is a BB gun I use for the neighbor's cats and stray dogs and cats. It works quite nicely.

-- Jim Roberts (jroberts1@cas.org), May 18, 2000.

I will be happy to explain everything you want to know but your present question is a bit vague. Whats best to tie things together with? My favorite spool of thread wont hold a battleship in dock. What is the best single tool? My preference for an 8lb maul wont turn a single screw. Give us some idea of what you do understand and we can go from there. If you wish you can send an email to my address and we will continue in as much depth as you wish. If you want my random off the cuff anwer for a single do everything weapon for a beginner I would say Remington 870 12ga with marine finish. Once you own one firearm you will find that much like a box of tools, each one serves a particular purpose and you will likely want some for special functions. We also have to come up with models that will fit in the homestead budget once we figure out what type is best for you.

-- William in WI (thetoebes@webtv.net), May 18, 2000.

great advice up there you asked were to start take a hunter saftey course to learn the ins& outs of all weapons! then I like the 12 gauge !

-- shaun&terri (shaun-terri@juno.con), May 18, 2000.

Jean, the only guns worth having are the ones YOU are comfortable handling and shooting. The 12 gauge shotgun is real handy, but for me, I will hesitate before shooting it because it is going to hurt, so it is not so handy for me. The 22 popgun, for me is as easy as point and shoot. Because I am left handed, some bolt action rifles are not so convenient when hot casings eject in your face. My personal security favorite is the Smith & Wesson 38 Special Police revolver, with my dad's copper jacket hollow point special loads. With these you don't even need to have good aim, just come close.

The point is, you need to try alot of guns to find what YOU are comfortable with. What is easiest for you to load, aim, fire and clean? Some folks in your local gun clubs could take you to the firing range and let you try a variety of different firearms and advise you on what would suit your purposes. Try out several kinds to find your own favorite.

And let us all not forget about safe and convenient firearm storage out of reach of children and thieves.

Laura

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

While I have an extensive arsonnal, my weapon of choice around the farm is a Marlin 30-30. I also thoroughly enjoy flintlocks and black powder 50 calipers. For handguns, which I have no interest in--it is hard to beat the Beretta 9 mm pistola. For war and utility --the most versatile weapon is the AK-47. More durable,faster firing and more accurate than any other assualt rifle on the market today.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

Jean, I agree that it's a good idea to learn about things first, before making a major commitment. (Incidentally, is that Jean as in Jeanne Scot female, or Jean as in John French male?)

To try to avoid any ignorant comment from lurkers, I'll declare up- front that I live in Australia, so I don't know all about the USA. Also, there's a lot of untruths told in the USA about the Australian firearms situation. I'll discuss this further off-thread or in another thread if anyone wants to. Not worth wasting further space here - this has grown GINORMOUS anyway.

That was by way of establishing my credentials - I grew up using firearms on a farm. They are essential tools of the trade for farmers, not only for shooting vermin, but also for putting-down injured or grievously-ill livestock, and can be used for humane slaughter when butchering. If you've got livestock and you're not going to have firearms then you're guilty of deliberate cruelty, if not now then tomorrow. Firearms are power tools, and like all power tools you have to ALWAYS bear in mind what they can do, learn to use them safely, and then ALWAYS do it (learn why you do things, then practice until it's automatic). I'm much more scared by power saws and chain saws than I am by firearms - in my hands anyway.

By all means talk to the NRA (here I'd say Sporting Shooters' Association), and ask them about beginner's courses for a homesteader, and whether they think you should purchase something before the course, and if so what. Depending on the attitude of your local police, they could be a good source of advice, or second opinion, or not - that may be a good thing to ask your local NRA and gun shops too. Oh, yes - whether or not you use self-loading firearms, always call them that. If you use the word "automatic", even as in "semi-automatic", you press some buttons with the ignorant fluff-brains, and they start stirring up more ignorant souls to ban firearms.

My answers are phrased in terms of the firearm as a farmer's tool - if I had a constitution that guaranteed me the right to bear arms, I'd make sure I kept every bit of that right, but in fact you can run a farm without setting up .5" Browning machine guns flanking the driveway, and you can use those farmer's tools for defense if the situation arises. My personal opinion is that the one essential farmer's firearm is a .22 rifle. If nothing else get a single shot bolt action with open sights - that's the traditional rifle to learn on - inexpensive, rugged, easy and gentle to use, as safe as a firearm can be in inexperienced hands, and can kill nearly anything with a well-placed shot from close enough (although it's by no means optimal for anything above small animals). NOTE THAT even bullets from .22 short cartridges have a range of over a mile if fired pointing upwards - safety advantages are that once they've hit anything they're not as likely to go on and hit something else, and that they do drop pretty quickly when fired horizontally. Maximum range is if fired at 450 - never shoot if you can't see where the bullet is going to end up; and in particular be careful shooting up at things in trees, and NEVER shoot out of creeks, ravines, gullies, up cliffs, etc at things on the rim.

The next step would be a shotgun. My choice would be a double-barrel side-by-side, but then pump-action and self-loading aren't options I have, and single-shot is way better than nothing. If I were there I'd get a self-loader - under pressure it's possible to make mistakes with pumping a pump-action. I'd think very hard before I got anything other than 12 gauge, even if you are female and 4'9". Yes, 12 gauge can have a kick (in fact, if you're holding it properly, that should be more of a solid push: if a long-arm is properly held, it's cradled snugly into your shoulder so the recoil pushes you, rather than starting to move and then hitting your shoulder). However, if you have to you can buy short shells (2>" as opposed to standard 3" or magnum 3="), and light loadings (I think they call them skeet loads, although I'm not sure - never had a use for anything other than bog standard). Can even load your own. If you feel those may be options, for you or anyone else who may use the shotgun, then make sure the firearm you choose will work with that length of cartridge, and that light a loading. 12 gauge has the most readily available and the most economical ammunition in the most diverse range of types, and near the most power. Learn to shoot first, then take some lessons with shotgun, then decide what you want - if 12 gauge is just too much, try 16 gauge, then 20 gauge, then .410, and at some stage in this process try a new instructor because even children don't NEED to drop back to a .410, even if it is a good nine-year-old's starting shotgun. You may decide you prefer it, but the fact is you shouldn't feel you can't handle more. In fact, you owe it to yourself to be able to handle any common firearm competently and confidently even if not comfortably.

Shotguns, I agree, have excellent defensive potential; and with slugs they can take anything up to grizzly bear, and certainly including deer and people at up to 100 yards or a shade more if pushed.

After the shotgun, if I had only got a single-shot .22, I'd go back and get a repeating .22 rifle with a good 4x telescopic sight - but keep the single-shot as well. Like Jeff Cooper, I prefer the idea of well-placed shots to "spray and pray", so I'd get a bolt-action even if self-loading was an option for me. Lever and pump-action are other alternatives, but they're not as accurate as bolt-action. I might go for the longer range and harder-hitting Winchester .22 rimfire magnum (particularly if I wasn't going to get anything else) if it could also handle standard .22 ammunition with reasonable accuracy - some can, some can't, some can but will be damaged by it long-term.

That may be all you feel you need. I'd personally go on and get larger calibres, but that's self-indulgence. I'd get at least a .22 centrefire (probably .223 calibre, considering what seems to be available over there, but then I'm a skinflint). Personally, here, I'm going to get a .243 (6mm), and load my own - can take it all the way from weights near the high-speed .22's (5.5mm) to bigger heavier bullets matching the 6.5mm Mauser (.257). I'll also get a .303 British (SMLE, short model Lee-Enfield). Look real hard at that one - they're available cheaply in the USA, the performance is up there with the 30/06 (some were even chambered for it), and my uncle used to shoot competitively with one out to 1100 yards using the built-in aperture or "ghost-ring" iron sight. Hand-loads can take that up near .300 Magnum performance; or down to .308 (7.62x54mm NATO) performance, 30-30 performance, or below (even as far down as 7.62x39mm Russian, if you're only interested in counting coup and perhaps bruising your target).

Handguns - this is theory. Hard to get here. If I was there, I'd try to get some training first, or at least fire some comparative shots. From what I've read, I'd look hard at getting one or two of the inexpensive ex-police .357 Magnum double-action revolvers. They can also take .38 special ammunition, so you can load down to relatively gentle recoil. It's same general calibre as all the 9mm's that are getting publicity at the moment. Much harder to jam, much less fussy about ammunition, much more forgiving than self-loading pistols. If something does go wrong, no complicated drills - just squeeze the trigger again, the revolver (guess what) revolves, and a new cartridge comes under the hammer. No need to cock them - squeeze the trigger. Whatever happens, squeeze the trigger. If it still doesn't shoot, re-load. Not as many bullets as a self-loader, but how many people are you going to need to shoot anyway? Remember, aimed shots: front sight, squeeze - not spray and pray. And get some speed-loaders.

Storage: if a kid - yours or someone else's - gets hold of a firearm and kills someone, it's your responsibility. You have to make your own decisions here, but I think making it possible for unsupervised children and firearms to mix (particularly with what they see on TV and on computer games) is a greater risk than not having immediate access to the firearm for self defence. At some stage, they have to be trained, but of course you've been teaching them responsibility all along. If they've been trained under supervision (so it's not forbidden fruit or something they just want to try out), and if they've been dealing with death and killing (say poultry for eating) all along, and if they respect you and know you respect others, then they'll have a better chance of not becoming the evil monsters of Columbine, or even just featuring in firearms accident statistics. We seem to have got onto my responsibility hobby-horse again.

And PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. Good reason for hand-loading, once you're past the .22 rimfire stage - you can afford to shoot enough to make good shooting automatic. May be worth getting air-rifle and air- pistol for practice, small vermin and kids (not shooting them in this case - practising them) as well.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), May 19, 2000.

Homestead Defense

Concealment is your best choice. Don't talk about your new purchases, keep a low profile. Hide your wealth.

Gardens - Box traps and snares work great and are quite will not bring any unneed attention. Dispensed 8 racoons, 7 opposums,4 grouse and 6 rabbits last year from the graden this way.( don't know why I haven't seen any groundhogs) When I am pulling weeds I have either a 12 pump with #8 skeet load or a good 22 handgun. At night around the place I will use a slingshot to hit the critter, a slingshot will easily kill small critters. For protection from deer I have hounds. They also have a great nose and will let me know when a bear is within 1/4 mile. I haven't had problems with black bears, ran across one last fall will turkey hunting, and saw one in early summer while fishing down on the river. I only ever had one in my yard 8 years ago while my 6 year old daughter was playing. The bear came to eat the cat food.

Stray dogs- I have a problem with people droping off stray dogs. A 30/30 works well, usually a well placed shot to the ground directly under the animal will cause it to run quite a distance. However, I will generally try catching it and taking it to the pound. This week alone had a young beagle, a coonhound and a black labish mutt roaming around. Slingshot works here, too.

Home & personnel protection-I have to agree that the sound of a 12ga pump is scarry. If you can't carry one then my second choice would be a heavy revolver with one round of bird-load chambered and standard load after that.

In time of war-(I pray daily that it never come.) Concealment, follwed by booby traps, then by a 50cal. BMG, something you can reach out and penetrate light armor with, and finally an AK-47.

Learn some hand-to-hand carry a foldup batton on your key chain and know how to use it. Once while on a squad run, the OD'ed kid pulled a 22 handgun and shot the other EMT. Being able to remove the gun from him probally saved a lot of hurting. Carry a large knife, make it visible. If you want to carry a concealed handgun, a 38 snubnose is a good choice in an inside hip holster, get the largest tape measure you can find and keep it next to the weapon, that way if someone were to bump into you, they would not feel the gun just the tape measeure.

Practice, practice and practice! Learn how-to reload to keep practice cheap. Shot 1000's of rounds. One shot one kill, you may not be able to get get a second shot off.

-- Edible (w4822@qtmail.com), May 19, 2000.

Sorry to be so late in answering. You have a lot of good advice already, but I feel I should give you some of my opinions. And remember, these are all opinions. Were we able to actually meet and go to the backyard range, I could graduate to advice.

If you want 1 firearm to cover all of your needs, I would agree that would be a shotgun. The "normal" choice is a 12 gauge, since it carries a larger load of shot and is more effective by means of that, although not by velocity. Another popular choice is the .410, which has minimal recoil, but also minimal payload. If you are comfortable with the 12, I suggest that, and you can get lower powered loads that may be comfortable to you. If it is not comfortable, I suggest the 20 guage. I recommend this to women of smaller stature and youthful shooters. Recoil is not difficult, and the shot charge is ample. The .410, though pleasant, is really an expert's gun, since the shot charge is quite small. If you're an excellent shot, it's fine. If you can handle the 12 (and try something less than full power loads, go with it. But try the 20!)

Rifles. The .22 is great, and recoil is almost non-existant. The .22 Magnum is much more powerful, and recoil is very slight. The magnum is effective to about 100 yards, while the .22 Long Rifle is good to 1/2 that distance, unless I am talking to Annie Oakley.

I will have to agree that the biggest thing is practice. I have shot competitively in smallbore and bigbore rifle and pistol, as well as trap (shotgun). The old saw, and it is correct, is that "the difference between a good shot and a poor shot is 10,000 rounds of ammunition!" Believe it, and GL!

-- Brad (homefixer@SacoRiver.net), May 20, 2000.

Oversight before - use eye protection and ear protection when shooting. You need to be unlucky for the eye-protection to pay its way, but when it does it's important. The ear protection - every shot can do a little damage to your hearing. You should have eye and ear protection for other power tools anyway.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), May 21, 2000.