Most of you know the answer to this...

Please list your scripture reference(s)

The answer, for those of you in Rio Linda, is YES, Belief is a work

Let's see where this thread takes us!

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Answers

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

The thing about those verses, where the word is translated 'work', the meaning is 'service'. And here is where MarkWiz's word 'hermeneutics' could come in.

Moderators note: This is a strange comment coming from one who recently quoted "Hermeneutics Schmermeneutics" (you can't have it both ways)

These two verses raise some (not much) question, because in SO MANY verses, we are told that it is NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy that he saved us. THAT is His work.

Another notable thing is that in that whole chapter of John (6:1-71) belief is the one thing which is mentioned as being required. Baptism is not mentioned at all. H-m-m-m.

I thought that 'hermeneutics' requires a cross-referencing of all passages which relate to that subject.

I agree that it is translated 'works' here, but 'service' is the meaning, and I think of the other passage which mentions 'our reasonable service ~ meaning 'worship', I think. Perhaps belief or mental assent IS work, (I know that 'study' is, and even burns calories), but then what about all of the verses which state that we are not saved by works?

Besides, these verses DO say the 'works of God' so is it God's work or is it OUR work?

Praying and watching, respectfully,

Connie

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Somebody besides Connie follow through with this... (no offense Connie, but you brought in too many side issues, which had the appearance of distracting from the issue....

First of all if MY belief is actually GOD's Work, that makes me a robot, thus promoting heretical Calvinistic doctrine straight from hell.

But let's continue without sophistry.

Is Belief a work? Mr. Batman proved it through the above scripture.

Next question.

Is Belief necessary for salvation... (OUR belief...) Please let's not go into turning God into Mr Gepetto again....

Is it necessary for ME (NOT GOD) to BELIEVE in order to be saved?

As moderator of this group, I hereby request ALL LURKERS to chirp in your two cents.

Thanks....

Duane

By the way.... How about we say ONE POST PER PERSON for at least 3 days, until everyone has had a chance to express their view?

Then Connie, (and other of you "wordy" posters can "wrap it all up")

Thanks...

Duane

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

"He that Believeth and is Baptised shall be saved" Mark 16:16

Sounds pretty clear to me.

Cynthia

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

I'm gonna say the answer is . . . . yes and no. Yes because of the scripture cited by John, and No because we're using one word to mean at least two different things.

In one sense, belief is a work because it is required of the one who would come to God through Christ. It is one part of our response, other parts including (but not limited to) commitment to Him, repentence, baptism, confession of sin and of His name. So, in the sense that a "work" is a response required by God, yes, belief is such a thing.

However, in another sense, the word "work" is used to describe anything that a person does in order to try to earn one's way into heaven, or into salvation. This is the way Connie says that we see baptism. She is, of course, wrong on that count, as we have told her many times. In this sense of the word, belief is NOT a work, in that such a thing has no bearing on "earning" one's salvation.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Duane wrote:

Next question.

Is Belief necessary for salvation... (OUR belief...) Please let's not go into turning God into Mr Gepetto again....

Is it necessary for ME (NOT GOD) to BELIEVE in order to be saved?

I think a key to settling such disputes is a passage like Philippians 2:12-13. In one passage, we see both a case for our "work": continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling and God's grace in a almost "predestination" or Gepetto form: for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose . With a little misinterpretation, we can make both cases from Phil 2.

But even a little misinterpretation leds to a contradiction within Phil 2. Is it works or grace? Well, context is everything -- go back in the passage before the "therefore" that begins verse 12 in the NIV version. Starting in verse 5, Paul writes that our attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus, who lowered Himself to be a servant. This is the lead into verses 12 and 13. It is when we humble ourselves by lowering ourselves to being lowly servants that God can then use us, acting within us and doing HIS work, not ours. Our "work" is to humbly submit.

Now, I know you are asking what that has to do with the question. Verse 12 of Phil 2 in context implies that our failure to "take the attitude of Christ" can result in a loss of salvation. We must continue to work at letting God work within us. Now, without our belief, would we ever have received instructions such as these? If God just gave us belief, why would He need our submission in order to act within us?

Another passage comes to mind in this vein: John 1:12 to all who received Him [the Word become flesh, i.e. Jesus], to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God . Our belief gives us the right to become children of God (sidebar: note that John 1:12 shows that belief gives the right, implying that belief alone doesn't make us children of God). If God gives us belief, why mention us believing giving us the right to become children of God? Why wouldn't John just write "those He chose were given the right ..."?

If someone would come up with a passage that clearly states OUR belief, that would be great, but if no one does, there are still plenty of passages implying our free will coming into play in our submission to God.

Three days, hmm, I can add another post in this thread on Sunday. Right, Duane? Opps, you did your post already, didn't you?

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000

Yes, but as moderator, I have extra privileges :) but I will keep to the spirit of the "law" and not add anything till later... (did like your answer though)

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000

Eph 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (NAS)

Normally this scripture is interpreted to mean that there is nothing that we can do to EARN our salvation, there is no WORK we can do. While I agree with this... I wonder if there is more to it?

As Mark pointed out, we are to WORK out our salvation (Phil.2:12, 13). John pointed out that Jn.6:28, 29 tells us BELIEF is a WORK. 1 Thess.1:3 talks of "your work of faith" and "labor of love". According to Eph.2:8, we must have faith, which is here described as work. Jesus said, we must love God and our neighbors, which here is described as labor. With that in mind, we could not be saved, because we would have to WORK to do it!

Could this scripture mean, just as it says, that salvation is not the result of our WORK (including BELIEF), but rather, we are saved by Gods grace alone (seen through the sending of His Son to shed His blood which is applied AT baptism... which we would only submit to if we believed and repented)?

Even if baptism could be considered a work, it would not be any more of a work than belief (or repentance) and either way, it is Gods grace that saves us. I don't think anyone here would deny that we need to DO something for salvation (even if it is only to believe... we have done something). And to DO something could be considered WORK.

I hope I have explained what I am thinking properly (probably not). Anyway... what do you think?

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2000

Other than the Scriptures already listed, I can't think of any to list. However, at the risk of getting this thread to go off the original subject, I still want to add my two cents worth about whether or not faith is a work by sharing something that was pointed out to me when I was discussing whether or not faith and baptism were works.

Find something in your room that is broken and no longer works (or get it out of the garage or garbage can). Make certain that it no longer works. Now, can you make it believe? Can you make it have faith? No. Because faith requires some work in our minds and hearts to accept what is being said and act upon it.

The same thing is true about repentance and confession. That broken item which can do no work can not repent or confession Christ as Lord. However, when we take that same broken item which can not do any work and see if it can be baptized (immersed), we find that it can be.

Why is it, that many people often say that baptism is a work and then don't see that faith/belief is even more of a work?

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2000

Mr. Schwingel,

I appreciate the question and the format in which this thread is being operated. The three-day approach forces a greater discipline in presenting opening statements regarding this important issue.

As John Wilson pointed out, Jesus called belief a work, rather, He called it THE work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Now some will argue that "of" is a genitive of possession and means that the work belongs to God and thus is not one of our works. But a clearer understanding of the rest of scripture will rule that out.

Consider the inspired words of Galatians 3:9-14. Paul asserts, "So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works fo the Law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law to pervorm them.' Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, 'The righteous man shall live by faith.' However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, 'He who practices them shall live by them.' Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree'--in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

All who are of faith are blessed with the blessing of Abraham, in Christ, which is the promise of the Holy Spirit.

So it will do us well to examine what kind of faith Abraham had so that we can match it and not come up short on the eternal day. Hebrews 11:17-19 gives some insight into Abraham's faith: "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, 'In Isaac your descendants shall be called.' (Gen 21:12) He considered that God is able to raise men even from the dead; from which he also received him back as a type."

James helps us understand this more clearly when he writes, by God's inspiration, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,' and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, 'You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.' You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,' and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. ... For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26)

In regard to faith (same greek word as belief) there is incomplete faith, which has no power to justify someone, and there is faith that is accompanied by works, which justifies, or saves. Abraham believed God, and it was CREDITED to him as righteousness, but that was not fulfilled until he actually DID something to accompany his belief. Faith without works is demonic faith; and belief without accompanying works is unable to save, or justify, being dead faith. Thus the Biblical description of saving faith INCLUDES works and any faith that is not accompanied by corresponding works (as commanded by God) will not justify the man.

Now let us test this with the example of Abraham. God promised Abraham that through Isaac his descendants would be named. Then God told Abraham to go kill Isaac. So Abraham is faced with a seeming dilemna. If he kills Isaac, either God was wrong, or God will somehow have to come up with a way to keep His promise. To add to the difficulty of his situation, consider this: no one had ever been resurrected from the dead up to Abraham's day. There was nothing in all of human experience that would hint to Abraham that the resurrection of the dead could or would happen. Nevertheless, he considered that God could not and would not break His promise, so he reasoned that God must be about to raise Isaac up. That is why he said to his servant while they were still a way off from their destination, "Remain here, and I and the lad will go yonder; and WE will worship and return to you." (Gen 22:5)

That is the kind of faith we are to have if we are to be justified, to be in Christ, to be saved.

I submit that true Biblical, saving faith INCLUDES the works of men in obedience to God, beginning at repentance, confession, and baptism, and continuing to set one's mind on things above, looking into the mirror of the word as we are being transformed to the Glory of the One who we behold. Without these works, we are not justified. Without proper works of obedience to the Holy One, we merely have demonic faith. With merely works, and not a proper focus on spiritual priorities and realities, we have become severed from Christ and fallen from grace.

Thank you for regarding my input, I certainly appreciate all those who continually reason together through this forum.

God Bless

Keith

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2000

I was hoping to hear some more discussion on this thread. Are there others who wished to add some insights? Are there any who wish to respond to the things presented by all who have already contributed?

-- Anonymous, May 23, 2000

Keith said,

'In Isaac your descendants shall be called.' (Gen 21:12) He considered that God is able to raise men even from the dead; from which he also received him back as a type."

I believe this statement is true. Does anyone else?

Believe, study to prove or disprove, and hold fast to the truth, discard that which is not true.

(Gen 28:14 KJV) "And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

And who are these people who have spread abroad? Are they the Great Colonizers of the whole earth? I believe it, do you?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Read the info on the Khazzars. This may help you decide what is truth re: the Isaac = Colonizers. IMO this is important in order to determine belief.

http://www.melvig.org/facts.html

Not interested in starting that debate again. Just do yourself a favor and discover the TRUTH. Jesus did not make the following statement for nothing...(Rev 2:9 KJV) "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, [Judaean] and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan."

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Mark,

Please start another thread. I am trying to keep this one simple:

Notice: I entitled it: "Is Belief A Work?"

Someone mentioned Isaac, and you went off on another one of your rabbit trails (nothing personal) You wrote:

Keith said, 'In Isaac your descendants shall be called.' (Gen 21:12) He considered that God is able to raise men even from the dead; from which he also received him back as a type."

I believe this statement is true. Does anyone else?

Then I believe you noticed how OBVIOUS it was that you were abusing threads to propagate your own agenda.... so as not to appear to be bully pulpiteering, you wrote:

IMO this is important in order to determine belief.

Come on, Mark, give us a break. All of us in here are smarter than that... we are not AOL newbies who cannot distinguish legitimate dialogue from titillating SPAM. I must admit I do respect the subtlety of your style, as a copywriter and marketer myself. But it won't pass muster with the sharper minds in this Forum. And they are beginning to tire of it...

Once, again, do NOT take my smart aleckyness personally. I love reading many of your threads, and I even comprehend some of them.... but There are PUHlenty of opportunities to start threads on any Theological issue you want... Title them appropriately..... wait for the responses... answer and debate in love... If nobody responds, it means they don't care, or don't find the discusssion worthy of response....

But don't come into what I have started as an honest SIMPLE topic and spam us with your doctrines....

As this Forum continues to grow, I also will continue to expand my responsibility (and authority--love that word) to keep things on track....

This goes for all of you by the way.... Mark was just the first one that caught my eye...

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000