I'm trying to get used to this forum and how it works and how you know where to read the latest questions and answers, but I read under the Misc. Thread about Doggey-Doo. Some of you have many dogs. We started out with 26-28 chickens, and are down to 2 hens and 4 roosters. Their pen is now used for dogs. We had a couple when we moved here, and then a couple more were dumped, and then they bred, and then a couple more were dumped, and so on. We've tried desperately to stay on top of giving puppies away, but haven't succeeded. I have a dog, Bushy, she sleeps by the door of the building we live in. We finally rounded up all the dogs on this farm, including 4 half grown pups someone dumped here a couple of weeks ago. There are about 5 adult dogs, male and female in the pen, 3 little puppies, old enough to give away. And 7 medium sized pups. All need rabies vaccines, but only 1 of the medium size pups are tame enough to come to and pet. The others are scared of us. They do like the kids, but my husband has told the younger ones not to go into the pen. He doesn't know how they'll react now that they're all penned up. We want to try to tame them down, and find homes for them. I'm thinking about the kennel thing, tho, I saw on the thread. We could use the housing from the washing machines we repair that are no good for dog houses. How hard is it to get rid of full grown dogs. These dogs are german shepherd mix, Black lab mix with boxer or pit bull. The dogs are very gentle, except for the chicken killing thing. The fenced in area is not really big enough for this many dogs of this size, and something needs done rather quickly. We've thought about having to shoot them, but just cringe at that thought. There is no humane society here, you take them in to the animal shelter, pay $15 per animal and if no one claims them in 3 days, they put them to sleep. Finances have been horrible for us the last 3 and a half years, it was all we could do to feed them... After reading your thread, I'm beginning to think we may be able to give away the puppies and add on to what we have. Bring our vet out for rabies shots. What do you do about your females in heat? We can't possibly afford to have them fixed, tho. I know the town is talking about building a humane society. In a few years, maybe... Supplies, websites, training advice, I don't have a clue how to train a dog.

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), May 15, 2000

Answers

Louise, do a web search under dog rescue -- there are a number of rescue groups and individuals who may be able to help you find homes for the dogs you don't want to keep. Do you have a local library? There are some good books on dog training that you may be able to find at the library -- if they don't have them, they should be able to get them on inter-library loan. Go to the county extension office and ask about 4-H dog clubs, also, for help with training. They may be able to tell you if the vets in your area do a low-cost rabies clinic, too -- and maybe a spay-neuter clinic. If people are going to keep dumping dogs at your place, you may have to get harder and just shoot them and bury them in the back pasture. That may be the only solution for the pups that are too wild to come to people -- dogs that haven't been well socialized when they are little may never be trustworthy with people. There would always be a danger of them biting someone, if only out of fear. And, as hard as this may sound, your children must come first. If finances are tight, don't deprive your children of necessities in order to buy dog-food for useless pets. I know there are people who will disagree with this, but animals are not little people in fur coats, and if it comes to a choice between feeding people or pets, the people need to come first. Productive livestock are another story -- hold onto them as long as you can! Sounds to me like you are folks with big hearts and have been taken advantage of -- I hope you are able to find homes for the dogs, but if not, do what is necessary!! Where are you, by the way? If anyone reading your message has room for a dog and is close enough, maybe they can help out by taking one off your hands.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 15, 2000.

Our vet here does a vaccination clinic once a month at a local feed store - 5 way plus rabies - for $10.00. Maybe a suggestion to a local vet could get something like this going in your area? I don't know what you can do with all those dogs, but maybe if word got out that you were shooting any dogs dropped off at your place (even if you really weren't!) there would be less dropped off! Worth a try! As far as training dogs goes, Barbara Woodhouse's methods really do work and you should be able to find her books at the library. Good luck! Jean

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), May 15, 2000.

I live down in So. Central KS, 5 mi. N of Winfield, and 35-40 mi. so. of Wichita.

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), May 15, 2000.

Dear Louise: When we moved to Alaska we collected two very fine dog teams for our kids. Now they are grown and away and we find the dogs are here to stay. We raised most ofthem so they became family. We were ableto give our daughter's team away. We have kept one team as they are all related and have a special temperament so have learned on very limited income various things. First, separate the males from the females as of Yesterday(!), find good clinics if available for group prices or for those animals you want to keep, have them neutered and spayed for it will save zillions of future puppies!!!!! Is there a vet available who would help. And let the public know, if needed, with a huge sign in front of your place what you will do with the next drop off's. However make sure they are abandoned rather than lost for we advertised for months for one of our lost beautiful female huskies. Two years later a dear young woman found her starving.saved her and advertised it. We saw the ad and I told my son, let's call just one more time and it was her. As for the shots the vet comes to our place. We feed the best economical highest protein and fat dry food but also cook up animal rice and meat. Neighbors kindly give us bones and scraps from butchering to add to it. Also do you have older kids who can help you socialize and train the dogs like walking on a leash. If we can help in anyway just email us. GL Norma Lucas

-- Norma Lucas (trooper806@webtv.net), May 15, 2000.

Dear Louise: When we moved to Alaska we collected two very fine dog teams for our kids. Now they are grown and away and we find the dogs are here to stay. We raised most ofthem so they became family. We were ableto give our daughter's team away. We have kept one team as they are all related and have a special temperament so have learned on very limited income various things. First, separate the males from the females as of Yesterday(!), find good clinics if available for group prices or for those animals you want to keep, have them neutered and spayed for it will save zillions of future puppies!!!!! Is there a vet available who would help. And let the public know, if needed, with a huge sign in front of your place what you will do with the next drop off's. However make sure they are abandoned rather than lost for we advertised for months for one of our lost beautiful female huskies. Two years later a dear young woman found her starving.saved her and advertised it. We saw the ad and I told my son, let's call just one more time and it was her. As for the shots the vet comes to our place. We feed the best economical highest protein and fat dry food but also cook up animal rice and meat. Neighbors kindly give us bones and scraps from butchering to add to it. Also do you have older kids who can help you socialize and train the dogs like walking on a leash. If we can help in anyway just email us. GL Norma Lucas

-- Norma Lucas (trooper806@webtv.net), May 15, 2000.

Welcome to the realities of living off the sidewalks. Folks who don't have the backbone to destroy their own unwanted pets, dump them into the woods thinking what? they will find a good home, or run free and eat what? No, they raid hen houses, terrorise livestock, run with coyotes, and infect wildlife. If you can't afford to neuter, spay, feed, house, vaccinate, worm and heartworm these dogs then put them down. Dogs like this have been ruined by folks who didn't do all of the above, and show any compassion for these animals to begin with. To now think that they will ever find a forever home? The cost of putting them down at a kill shelter far outweights any costs you are going to or have already put out. I know you are trying to do the right thing here, its just truly an impossible situation. And to now let them have more pups to give away to more folks who will not neuter and spay? I would rethink this altogether! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 15, 2000.

Louise, I know it sounds heartless, but Vicki and Kathleen are right. The world is already overrun with stray cats and dogs that were either abandoned or born wild.There are starving children in the world, who need food, and it seems a crime to me that there are so many well fed cats and dogs when there are kids who aren't getting enough to eat. I understand that it is hard to cosider putting them down, but if you don't this will be an ongoing problem for you that will never really be resolved in a satisfactory way.If you can't shoot them yourself,perhaps your husband or a friend will be able to do it for you.Believe me, it will be a tremendous weight off of your shoulders to no longer have the burden of all those dogs, and if you feel guilty about it at first,please try to remember that this is not your fault,and these dogs are just not going to be good pet prospects.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 15, 2000.

Vicki has a point. If you live on the edge of a town or near a highway coming out of a city there's no lack of thoroughly sorry people who'll abandon their unwanted animals on you because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to do the right thing by them.

Back when he was still keeping goats and other stock this was a problem for years for my grandfather once they drove an interstate highway through the middle of the farm. Once in a while if the abandoned/stray animal was a nice specimen he'd try to find someone to take it but there's only just so many folks wanting animals at any given time. Most of the time he just got out the .22 and shot the animal. It's no kindness to hang a man slowly.

No one should have to care for a pack of animals they don't want because somebody sloughed them off on you nor is it responsible to allow them to breed more animals. Not a very nice picture to be sure but the reality of increasing numbers of breeding, starving, unhealthy predatory animals is pretty stark and calls for decisive action.

............Alan.

-- A.T. Hagan (athagan@netscape.net), May 15, 2000.

Louise, I totally agree with the rest--I would shoot them as soon as they came close to my place! You are doing something that you wouldn't be forced into doing, if others wouldn't dump the dogs---- but it is best for everyone if they are shot, as I see it! We live on the north side of Wichita by 75 miles. My dear freind, use to run the Whichita animal shelter there. She is the one who told me, to shoot them & save everyone a lot of problems! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 15, 2000.

We also live very far removed from civilization and anyone who needs to get rid of a dog comes out here thinking, "Oh, theres a farm they will take care of them." WRONG!!!!! I love animals, don't get me wrong. Its just a cumbersome burden for anyone to try to rescue them all. We have 3 dogs, 4 counting our Miramma (sp)/commador mix. Out of the 3, 2 are rescues. Expenses add up eventually and with the amount you have soon you will find yourself in a mess. A lot of communities have kennel laws which say that anything over 6 dogs is considered a kennel. I don't know about your particular community but a lot do. Its a shame that there are no organizations in your area to help. And I'm wondering where PETA is when they are really needed,,,, off saying beer is better than milk! I feel for you and my hats off to you, you seem to have a heart. Just be careful and don't overextend yourselves in the process. Good luck and i hope you find an organization to help.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 15, 2000.

I've been lurking on this site for a few months now and love it but haven't really felt the need to respond to anything until now. Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am a dog LOVER (own 5). I am a volunteer dog obedience leader for our local 4-H club and have obedience trained dogs as a hobby for the past 15 years. That said, I agree with everybody else. The kindest thing to do for these half- wild dogs is to put them down. There is nothing more untrustworthy than a fearful dog. You never know when they will bite. An aggressive dog will often warn you of his/her intent with certain behaviors (hackles raised, rigid stance, staring, etc.) which gives you at least a second or two to react. A fear-biter can bite without displaying any of these behaviors any time it feels cornered, threatened, etc. Even the most mild-mannered children can unintentionally threaten a fear-biting dog with tragic results. Others have also made good points about the expense involved with caring for dogs properly. I budget a set amount per month to cover my pet expense. As I said, this is my hobby, but it isn't a cheap one. Annual vaccinations, heartworm medication, food, housing, etc. are expenses that have to be met. In my area, even using the local fire department's annual "shot clinic", I easily spend $60-$75 per dog just for shots and heartworm medicine, not to mention dogfood. It adds up quickly. The reproduction game is a losing battle. True story: An acquaintance of ours had a stray female dog wander onto his property. Of course she wasn't spayed. Nature took its course and she had puppies, who when they came "of age" had puppies, and so on. In the space of two years, that one dog had spawned 45 dogs!! This acquaintance didn't have the heart (or the sense) to take care of the problem and just moved out, leaving 45 hungry, breeding dogs behind. What a mess! My husband had the thankless job of putting these dogs down. You mentioned that money is tight right now. I doubt that you want to drain the precious monetary resources you have by caring for a pack of half-wild dogs rather than building/maintaining your homestead. It's a tough decision for those of us who love and care for animals, but it's the right one in my opinion.

-- Sandy (tripletreefarm@hotmail.com), May 15, 2000.

I feel so badly for all of you..what a no-win situation you are in! There has never been any person alive who loves dogs more than I do, and because i love them, I too recommend that you put them down as soon as possible.Pack animals who are not socialized are a danger.There is no other nice way to say it, you are not helping them by doing nothing.You have big hearts and God bless you for it, but be firm and put the dogs down quickly.

-- lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 15, 2000.

Can't say that I agree with killing hungry, scared animals just because they are troublesome or a burden to society. But then everyone is entitled to their opinion. First off the males should be separated from the females. It's pretty obvious that breeding will stop once that is done. Then save even a little a month and have the males castrated one at a time. Castration is usually half the price of spaying. The half grown dogs that are fearful may come around with steady kindness but you need to work on them one at a time. Fear biters are indeed a severe problem and if that's what you have you may have to put them down. Contact a local,sympathetic dog breeder that might be willing to check out the puppies and temperment test them for you. Your local vet or one of the clinic staff might be willing to help out also. They will be knowledgeable about behavior and should be able to give you an idea of whether their timidness can be resolved and whether they have biting tendencies. As for the dropped off dogs, i don't have a good answer for you. I personally could not shoot a dog but then I can't butcher livestock either. Go with what your conscience says is right. Do check out the internet for rescue organizations that could help. Also, try some local vets. They know people looking for pets that are good owners. You may also be able to arrange a deal with one to get shots at a lower cost. My clinic also accepts bartering: got a clean car for a spay. Check it out.

-- teresa (teresam@ascent.net), May 15, 2000.

i hate to say it but i agree with the put them down answer that seems to be the majority here. i have 5 dogs and 6 cats at my house and i spend more money on the food for them than i do for me. do you have a vet that you use for your other animals maybe due to the situation he or she might be able to work something out to put them down for you. i never shot a dog unless it is chasing one of my animals as i would hate to shoot one of my neighbors animals that might just of got loose. i wonder would one of those elastic or rubber band things work at least if any of the male dogs if it would work would cut down on the preg of the females but i am sure if you have that many females any male dog in the area would be visiting you when the females are in heat and that would just create more problems for you. i really think you need to put them down or find someone that will if you just can't do it.

-- gail (gef123@hotmail.com), May 15, 2000.

Hello Louise,

I learned a really hard lesson about responsibility for animals when I was 12. My Dad was in the Air Force, we were stationed in upstate New York, and my family was visiting my Grandfather's farm in east Texas. We were to be there perhaps 3-4 days.

I loved to wander around and explore his 160 acres. One day as I was walking through a field a mother coyote and 2 very young and cute pups were crossing on a trail maybe 20 yards in front of me. Being a kid, I ran after them. The mother had to delay running off because the pups were so slow. I don't know if I was catching up but the laggard most pup tried to walk between a ground-level fork in a low shrub and he got caught. Well, I caught him! What a prize! I had a baby coyote! Too cool! I got a cardboard box, put him in it, and after I'd exhausted my immediate joy I took him to my Grandfather - (just my Grandfather because parents never much liked cool things like my Gangy did). My grandfather was my favorite but when he saw what I had he just looked me in the eyes, right through me and said in a flat tone "Uh huh, I see. How you gonna take care of him?" And he walked off.

The world fell in. There was no way this animal was going to New York; his mother would'nt now take him back even if she were still around; I had no idea how to feed it; we were leaving in two days; and how was I (not my grandfather or anybody else) going to take care of this poor cute pup?. I realized "take care of him" meant two things: feed and raise it up or "put him down". Abandoning it was unthinkable. I remember I went and got an axe and killed it. It was my fault it died and I was very ashamed.

I've had many other animals since but thanks to that coyote pup and the lesson from my Grandfather I grew up. I've never gotten a dog or other animal that I was'nt prepared to not just want but to also take care of. No matter what.

-- Charles Burandt (clb@watervalley.net), May 16, 2000.

The elastrator bands do NOT work well on dogs. I know because someone asked me to band a dog of theirs once(a pitbull that was aggressivee and biting people).The people could not afford to have a vet do it. Well, I was dumb enough to give it a try.What a mess! After we finally got the thing on,that dog concentrated all his energies on trying to remove the band.After about a week he was found dead under the house,he had chewed his testicles off and bled to death.It would have been far kinder to just put him down quickly.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 16, 2000.

Man, what a dismal situation. I know without any doubt that I could not shoot a dog unless it was endangering me or one of my animals. I have to concede that the majority of opinions here are correct though. If they are unsocialized and fearful they could very well be endangering your children, livestock or yourself. I was surrounded by a pack of wild dogs in the dead of a Wisconsin winter when I was 12, scared me silly. My Dad told me that I was trying to get out of feeding my rabbits by saying there was a pack of dogs out there trying to get the veggie scraps I was taking to them....I took a tether ball pole out of the garage and found my rage factor was in full effect and chased them off...but it was not good. Dad apologized when the incident was over and my screams had died down! When dogs pack it is a bad situation.

I have 4 dogs myself, 3 strays and one that I actually intended to get, but if you can't afford to spay/nueter them, you will only be adding to the problem. A very hard decision. Perhaps the younger ones can be socialized and given to good homes, but you have to insure that they will be spayed or castrated as well.... Best of luck to you.

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), May 16, 2000.

I'm going to voice my opinion on this but most people will probably disagree, probably even get upset with me. If you send a dog to the pound to be gassed, they have to hang around in a pen several days. Their spirit and heart are broken. If you just give them just anyone, they might be used as "kill dogs" for people who have pit bull fighting dogs. Of course, if you find them a really good home with someone you can depend on, that's best. My opinion for an unwanted dog that nobody wants in this: Go and buy a nice big jucy steak. Take the dog out into the country and let him eat the steak and play and have a good happy day and then shoot it. It protects the dog from mean people and from having its heart and spirit broken. You probably don't agree, but that's my way. Eagle

-- eagle (eagle@alpha1.net), May 17, 2000.

Sorry, as a dog lover and breeder, also homesteader, I have to agree with everyone else. It's a tough choice, but they will never truly be tame and could put not just your chickens, but your CHILDREN in danger. If there are 1 or 2 you desperately want to keep, males are very easy to neuter with a knife or scalpel. NOT BANDS! Good Luck.

-- (smjranch@excite.com), May 19, 2000.

Louise, my suggestion is that you sit down with your husband and children and discuss this problem and make a kind of a mission statement as to what your family chooses to do about all dogs in general on your property and the dogs you have now on your land. Feeding the dogs is taking books and clothing and garden seeds away from your family, plus you are probably not aboe to feed the dogs a really nutricious diet.

Paying for a vet to come to you to give them all their shots and spay or neuter them is wholly impractical. For myself, I would not be able to shoot dogs. On the other hand, I would not have taken a bunch of mongrels and penned them up.

It may be that your children have some favorite dogs they want to save. Perhaps they can help divide the pen so the males can be separated from the females.

Facing this problem and solving it for your home schooled children can give them a lot of opportunity to do research on dog diseases, breeding, and etc. Perhaps one child is old enough to get a job with a vet and exchange work for learning how to properly care for dogs and get some animals spayed.

If I were you, I would contact the persons with the shelter. Most shelters have a vehicle to transport animals. It would be a difficult choice, but if I found myself in your situation, I would choose which dog or dogs I intened to keep and take good care of, and ask the shelter people to come get the rest. Perhaps they could find homes for some, others would have to be put down, but hopefully humanely with a shot plus the carcasses would be disposed of. I would not want to shoot dogs and then bury them in a mass grave by the river if I were you, nor would I want my children to see the violence.

In any case, I'd rather have chickens in my pen and a couple of really good valuable (neutered) dogs outside the pen and living in my home with me as part of my family, rather than ostracized in a dog jail.

Think quality of life -- for you AND for the dogs. And think, do you want to risk that one or more of those unvaccinated, uncared for dogs might get out and attack one of your family members? To me you have too much risk and no benefits. And UGH! Doesn't the pen stink?

-- Elizabeth Petofi (tengri@cstone.net), May 21, 2000.

In some parts of the world a bunch of stray dogs dumped on your doorstep would be like a bunch of pigs dumped of americans doorstep. Why is it better to kill a lamb and eat it than kill a dog and eat it? Why is it better to kill a dog and bury the meat then kill something else to replace the wasted meat? All things should be treated with respect. Killing a 50 lb lamb and burying it, wasting it would not be considered good. Also you can't afford not the have your dogs fixed.

-- (mironbear@aol.com), May 22, 2000.