Any preachers here ever teach about the evils of usury, Banking, and money grubbers in general, including money grubbing "preachers"?

Some have come to the conclusion that usury is the root cause of the wars which have destroyed millions in our life time, both physically and financially, and only God knows how many over the centuries.

IMO focusing in on usury will lead to a good understanding of the BEAST, which also includes politics, religions, commerce, insurance, etc.

Just for instance...I went bankrupt years ago owing the Federal Government, IRS, $9,000. By the time I had paid that off the total extortion was the sum of $18,000.

True, I fall into the catagory of a poor business manager, but is that reason to punish?

Perhaps I should have bowed down to the "image of gold"?

(Dan 3:18 KJV) "But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up."

Seems to be a message here re: those who will not bow down to the image and conform to the "ways of this [Babylonian] World.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Answers

You're right Mark! All those who will not bow down to the "image of gold" will be cast into the fire, that is to say financial ruin.

Bow down and kiss the feet of your local loan shark...I mean banker.

(Ezek 18:8 KJV) "He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,"

(Ezek 18:9 KJV) "Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD."

(Ezek 18:13 KJV) "Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: SHALL HE THEN LIVE? hE SHALL NOT LIVE: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him."

Or SHALL THE IRS LIVE? THE IRS SHALL NOT LIVE:

Or SHALL THE BANK LIVE? THE BANK SHALL NOT LIVE:

Or SHALL THE ECONOMY LIVE? THE ECONOMY SHALL NOT LIVE:

(Rev 18:10 KJV) "Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! FOR IN ONE HOUR IS THY JUDGEMENT COME."

"Preach it Mark!"

"Thanks Mark!"

"No problem!"

"Talking to yourself?"

"Yeh!"

"Gotta go, hear me calling!"

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

THIS MESSAGE POSTED TO APFN MESSAGE BOARD: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb1075995

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline. - Proverbs 1:7

Church That Opposed Clinton Doesn't Get Tax-Exempt Status Back http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGIJC96868C.html

By Richard Carelli Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Internal Revenue Service was justified in revoking the tax-exempt status of a small New York church that opposed President Clinton's 1992 candidacy, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

The unanimous ruling said the revocation - history's first stripping of a church's tax exemption for political activity - "neither violated the Constitution nor exceeded the IRS' statutory authority."

Lawyers for the Church at Pierce Creek, in the Binghamton, N.Y., area, had argued that the tax agency had exceeded its authority, violated the church's free-speech rights and engaged in selective prosecution.

"These objections are without merit," a three-judge panel of the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia concluded.

Federal tax law exempts churches and other charitable organizations from taxation provided they do not engage in certain activities, including any political campaign on behalf of or in opposition to any candidate for public office.

The Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said the ruling "slams the door on mixing religion and partisan politics."

"This is a staggering defeat for Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and others who want to convert America's churches into a partisan political machine," Lynn said. "In light of this ruling, pastors who allow partisan politicking in the sanctuary are jeopardizing their church's tax exemption."

It was the Friday before Election Day in 1992 when the Church at Pierce Creek and its pastor, Daniel J. Little, bought a full-page advertisement in two newspapers urging voters to reject Democratic presidential nominee Bill Clinton because of his positions on abortion, homosexuality and the distribution of condoms in public schools.

The "Christians Beware" ad appeared in USA Today and The Washington Times. Americans United for Separation of Church and State subsequently filed a complaint with the federal tax agency.

After an investigation, the IRS revoked the church's tax-exempt status in 1995, action held in abeyance during the legal fight. A federal judge upheld the revocation last year, and Friday's decision agreed with his reasoning.

The appeals court's decision focused most closely on the church's free-speech claims, but rejected them as exaggerated.

"The church asserts first, that a revocation would threaten its existence ... that a loss of its tax-exempt status will not only make its members reluctant to contribute the funds essential to its survival but may obligate the church itself to pay taxes," Judge James Buckley wrote for the panel.

"In actual fact, even this burden is overstated ... As the IRS confirmed in oral argument, if the church does not intervene in future political campaigns it may hold itself out as a (tax-exempt) organization and receive all the benefits of that status," he said.

Buckley's opinion also noted that churches can form separate, non-exempt entities "for the promotion of social welfare," and that those organizations can form political action committees to participate in campaigns.

The New York church is represented by the Robertson-founded American Center for Law and Justice.

"While we are disappointed with the ... case involving the Church at Pierce Creek, we are encouraged that this court appears to provide a blueprint for churches to express their beliefs in a political context," ACLJ chief counsel Jay Sekulow said. "This is an important development in the area of protecting the First Amendment rights."

Sekulow said his group had not yet decided whether it will appeal the case to the Supreme Court.

The case is Branch Ministries vs. Rossotti, 99-5097.

---

On the Net: For the ruling: http://www.uscourts.gov/links.html and click on D.C. Circuit.

AP-ES-05-12-00 1545EDT ======================================================================

Re: Church That Opposed Clinton Doesn't Get Tax-Exempt Status Back From The Associa http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGIJC96868C.html

We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, Timothy 1:9

It is not a political issue..it is religious issues brought forth into reality as mentioned in Isaiah, Daniel and Revelation.

Therefore, it is our Right to do our ministerial duties as we are 'called' forth into the ministry!!

It is not any political person. ...it is good against evil...

There is much evil....and we will NOT delete any part of the Holy Bible to accommodate any of it...because it is written that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that cometh out of his mouth. If we say nothing...we will be guilty....

If we say what the Scriptures say...we are earthly guilty. It's about time 'the Church' comes out of the closests and turns off their loud MC music and their social parties...and gets back to the Scriptures!

So what difference does it make? Here on earth is temperal...in heaven it's eternal! It is better to obey God rather than man!

Keep up the good work..Bob! MCAC@home.com

BECOME AN ORDIANED MINISTER: http://www.ordination.org/

"Separation between Church and State" Regarding religion and Government, George Washington said that no one could claim to be a true American or the tribute of American patriotism to if they ever - to remove religion from politics. In his own words, "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally the pious man, ought to respect and cherish them. A volume could not trace all the connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without prevail in exclusion of religious principle...It is impossible to govern rightly without God and the Bible." http://www.christiansolutions.com/ChristianityAndGov/Seperation_of_the _Church_and_State.htm

What law actually dictates the separation of Church and State? http://www.spiritual-answers.com/Questions/church_and_state.htm

NATIONAL NEGLECT http://www.ptw.com/~m5onl4/patriots/neglect.html

The Church for the American Christian who is a Patriot Pro-Christ, Pro-Life, Pro-Constitution http://www.megalink.net/~cecily/

Quietly, State Dept. Turns Over American Islands to Russia, Others http://www.megalink.net/~cecily/not_on_tabloid_tv.htm

The Mandate - http://www.impeachclinton.com

World Wide Illuminati http://www.company23.com/wwi/index.htm

MASONIC SYMBOLS OF POWER IN THEIR SEAT OF POWER -- WASHINGTON, D.C. http://www.cuttingedge.org/n1040.html

Weekly Updates For Christians On The New World Order http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/headline.html

Founder of millionmommarch.com, Donna Dees Thomases, has been characterized by the American mass media as, "Dees Thomases, who considered herself too busy to take much notice of politics..." In fact, she is a former Democrat political staffer and CBS publicist. FULL STORY: http://ustruth.com/media/issues.htm

GUN CONTROL: Descriptions of the supreme court gun cases http://www.apfn.org/apfn/gun.htm

More Great Sites: http://www.apfn.org/apfn/moregreat.htm

AMERICAN PATRIOT FRIENDS NETWORK EMAIL ALERTS: apfn@apfn.org http://www.apfn.org

"The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be free men or slaves, whether they are to have any property they can call their own, whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed and themselves confined to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend, under God, on the courage of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die." -- George Washington

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2000

I don't know exactly where you are going with your side tracks, but I want to propose a question regarding your original post. In Matthew 25:14-30, Jesus' parable of the talents, did Jesus (via the man in the parable) condemn the one with the one talent for not putting it in a bank and collecting interest??? If the man was condemned for not collecting interest, then is all collecting of interest wrong? How could a bank collect pay out interest if they do not also invest money and collect interest by loaning out money? Perhaps I am pushing the point of the parable. But how much difference is there from making a profit by wisely investing your time and money into making something you can sell for a profit verses investing money in something that can earn interest? Another question I have relating to the same thing IMO is "If a church has an average balance of $1000 for the month in its checking account and that could earn interest in one account or not earn interest in another account, which would be better stewards of God's money, to earn interest or not?" Just wanting to know if your opinion against usury is a two way street or just against being charged usury. Malcam

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2000

No one ever seems to know where Mark is going ... apparently not even Mark, who is now talking to himself. =)

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2000

John Wilson,

A sense of humor now.

It is just my opinion that instead of looking for something in the future to rise up and show itself as Babylon the Great, look around you. IMO it is the forest for the trees problem. Babylon is all around us and it is difficult to see because we have been conditioned to believe that usury is a good thing.

I noticed a mortgage burning thread above. I'll go read it. Hope it is that the person has paid his debt and stays that way. However there are still property taxes etc to pay. See what I mean. Never free from the usurers.

Just think about it.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

(Mat 25:26 KJV) "His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed:"

(Mat 25:27 KJV) "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury."

In this parable the slothful servant is accusing Jesus of reaping where he hadn't sowed, which is akin to calling Jesus a thief. And Jesus would never charge anyone interest because there is a death penalty for that practice. And Jesus is not a hard and austere man.

This parable does not condon usury but points out the liars and thieves who practice usury. They say Jesus is to tough on them and is a thief. Not so.

Usury is used to enslave people and (2 Cor 3:17 KJV) "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

IMO, if the Spirit of the Lord was predominant in the USA we would not have Usury because then we would know the truth re: this matter and teach our children to avoid those pitiless leaches.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Hey, Mark, maybe you need to check your definitions again. As a general rule, in today's financial and legal world, usury is the inflated or oppresive application of excessive interest, not simply interest of any kind.

And in the OT, the Hebrews were not enjoined from charging interest from everybody. They were not to oppress their fellow Jews, but they were allowed to charge interest of foreigners.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Mark:

As Christians, are we not to be generous, but not greedy; we are to owe no man anything but to love him; and in th Old Testament, I believe it says we are to lend but not borrow.

I think the verses on usury are to teach us not to charge usury; in fact we are not to even expect to be paid back.

Bankruptcy laws are in place so that people are not completely destroyed by perhaps bad business or debt decisions, but think of the different people who suffer from the money owed by people who declare bankruptcy ~ they never get the money owed them back.

I am not very wise about money, but I think that the less we borrow or owe, the better of we will be.

Our government is our government; it may not be as good as we would hope, but it is the best one in the world. Pray for your leaders, pay your taxes, obey your laws.

But the whole duty of man, really, is to love God.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2000

My mistake:

But the whole duty of man, really, is to love God. (Posted from above)

The whole duty of man is to FEAR God. Hold in reverential awe.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2000

Sam Loveall,

It used to be, here in Callifornia, that any interest charge over 3%- 4% was ilegal usury. Jimmy Carter came in, as I recall, and the interest rate went up to 21%.

However, if you can't see it then you can't see it. The Force (delusion)is Strong.

Usury is just one of the many ways you and I are lead into servitude.

Another way is Income tax. If you don't have the $ to pay then the IRS will punish you with interest and penalties.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2000

It used to be, here in Callifornia, that any interest charge over 3%- 4% was ilegal usury. Jimmy Carter came in, as I recall, and the interest rate went up to 21%.

However, if you can't see it then you can't see it. The Force (delusion)is Strong.

Usury is just one of the many ways you and I are lead into servitude.

Another way is Income tax. If you don't have the $ to pay then the IRS will punish you with interest and penalties.

here's an idea, Mark, if you are troubled in your personal life by problems of usury -- DON"T BORROW MONEY AND DON"T BUY ON CREDIT.

Lots and lots of folks do just fine in their lives buying with cash, and delaying purchases and making other kinds ao arrangements and decision when they don't immeidiately have what they want.

Credit and high interest rates are only a problem for those who let it become a problem. Millions of people in the United States with incomes no bigger than yours or mine do just fine.

As far as the IRS, you NEVER don't have the money to pay, at sometime. Proper personal money management will see that you have the proper amount of cash for any tax payments necessary. If you fall behind or ignore payments when they are due, or spend too much and then don't have what you need when you need it, the problem is not the system. The problem lies with the one mismanaging personal funds.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2000

"Use the Force, Sam" !!!!!!!

God does help those who help themselves, not necessarily those who help themselves to others high interest loans!

"One who lives by the sword, dies by the sword"

There will always be the poor and oppressed (because mankind has diseased himself with sin), but that DOES NOT negate personal responsibility in the matter.

-- Anonymous, May 22, 2000

The Word of God,

(Neh 5:3 KJV) "Some also there were that said, We have MORTGAGED our lands, vineyards, and houses, that we might buy corn, because of the dearth."

(Neh 5:4 KJV) "There were also that said, We have BORROWED MONEY for the king's tribute, (IRS) and that upon our lands and vineyards."

(Neh 5:5 KJV) "Yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children: and, lo, we bring into BONDAGE our sons and our daughters to be SERVANTS, and some of our daughters are brought unto BONDAGE already: neither is it in our power to redeem them; for other men have our lands and vineyards."

(Neh 5:6 KJV) "And I was very angry when I heard their cry and these words."

(Neh 5:7 KJV) "Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact USURY, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them."

I admit to being poor with business and I have taken steps to exclude myself from the SYSTEM OF USURY. However most people think USURY is a normal way of life. According to the WORD it is an evil trap.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000

Maybe this page will help explain what I am trying to say:

http://shillum.strongcity.com/index.html

Quote from this page:

"We shall. . . establish huge monopolies, reservoirs of colossal riches [International Banking], that even the large economies of the nations will depend on it to such an extent that they will go to the bottom together with the credit of the nations on the day after the political smash. You gentlemen here who are economists, just make an estimate of the significance of this combination. In every possible way we must develop the significance of our United Nations by representing it as the protector and benefactor of all those who voluntarily submit to us."

As I have said before, I think we are already in the midst of the END.

Take Care!

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000