I would also agree that church boards are not necessarily biblical. My question to those of you whose churches do not operate under the "traditional board system" is, "How do decisions get made?"

I realize that the elders are the authority. However, in a church our size, we only have 2 elders. Say a decision is made to make a large purchase or give a large gift or make a major change in the church... I can see where some might feel that the preacher has influenced these 2 or that the decision was only a representation of 2 people.

Do you train your people to submit and trust the eldership or do you have a congregational vote on decisions (at least larger decisions)? Do the elders "instruct" the deacons what to do?

Again, I would like to see more churches eliminate the "traditional board" and I would like more input as to how you do it in your churches.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Answers

While I may not attend to all of your questions, I will speak to what I perceive is the overall tenor of the Church board concept. I appreciate your comments regarding the Elders. However, in the role of leadership by the Elders, they are to lead the flock in changes which are to be made. They are not there to mandate beyond what God has imposed in Holy Writ. At our recent Planning meeting of the Pastors (Elders) of the Church, one of the areas we dicussed in length was how to effect a change and lead the congregation in the right manner so as to keep the unity of the Church. This is where good spiritual leadership is concerned, and that necessitates spiritual mentality and maturity. For Example Elders. The so- called "Church Boards I have seen have been are made up of everything from committee heads to the Deacons, etc. ( I had my work cut out for me there) It was just that they had always done it that way and were never taught correctly. Just as the Elders have to lead the flock, so also the Evangelist must teach it the way it is in the Oracles. Then it is the word doing the work and not our opinion. This is where I have run into young preachers who want to cram something down someones throat and it always comes back up. I have been there myself. Alas, I had to learn the hard way. The Elders likewise have great responsibility to also Teach it like it is in the book. Expenditures of funds for Material things is challenging, but doesnt need to be if the leadership, leads and doesnt try to drive or be overbearing. Hope it helps some. Let all things be done in love. Your servant, bro Jack

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000

Marc,

I hope I can help you a little on this as I have been allowed over the years to participate in a "Board System" as a Deacon and in Non-Board Systems as a Ministry Team Leader, an Elder, & then as an Associate Minister.

To be blunt - the Board System stunk! The Board was on the right track toward utilizing Deacons in their specific areas only (Like A Ministry Team Leader) but no real "teeth" were given them to get things done. Board meetings were often like NASA meetings - you have a meeting just to decide when to have another meeting - that's no way to run an airline (let alone the Lord's Church).

Now to answer your questions.

"How do decisions get made? (in a Non-Board system)" First of all, the Elders did not vote on matters - we came to a common, acceptable conclusion. We believed that the Holy Spirit is still involved in the church and that He is one Spirit, of one mind. Therefore, if the Elders were truly seeking God's wisdom and help on a decision, then they would all be led to the same conclusion by the Spirit. If 1 man could not agree with a decision and discussing it more closely with him did not change him - then it was tabled to allow more time to think and pray about. Just for the record, this process on several occasions resulted in the 1 man changing the mind of the others. With this way of operation, just because a straw vote might be 4 to 1, that does not mean than the 4 are right.

Involving the congregation in decision making was a matter of the circumstances. Deciding to install an extra bathroom sink didn't need congregational approval, but remodeling the Auditorium would. The decision to seek a Youth Minister might be brought before the group for their approval - though the decision to hire the particular man after that, might well be made by the Elders alone (Though the Elders would probably consult members on their feelings about the candidate before coming to their decision.

Yes, we taught and worked hard to convince the congregation of the Biblical mandate to trust and obey their Elders (per Hebrews 13:17). It can be done - though it can be tough at times. A word of warning - before pushing that issue, do your best to confirm that the present Elders ARE such trustworthy men; Danny & I got burned by a couple of "Sheep-covered" wolves.

2 Elders meets the plural Biblical precendent of Elder(s) - so that should not even enter the picture. And what is wrong with the preacher influencing the Elders? Preachers & Elders should get past the "Board" mentality of the Preacher being only a "hired gun" and work together for the Kingdom. His ideas are as valid (& maybe more so)as that of anyone else in the congregation, including the Elders, Deacons, Secretary, Piano player, or Lawn Maintenance man.

As far as the relationship between Elders & Deacons, much needs to be accomplished here as well. Elders lead via prayer, observation, and the leading of the Spirit; Deacons lead by their service in their areas. All church activities fall under the Eldership as they have the job of Shepherding the Flock in all things, so Deacons do not dictate policy - they follow it just like everyone else in the church should do.

However, the Eldership needs to empower the Deacons with the authority & money they need to get their jobs done. There should be a level of trust here so that micro-management is not needed or desired by the Elders. A Deacon should not have to submit a dissertation and then beg for the money to buy a new blade for the church lawn mower or for new paper plates in the kitchen, etc.

The best Elder's Meetings I ever attended were the ones where the Deacons (Ministry Team Leaders) had taken care of themselves and their specific tasks, so we were left only with discussing matters Spiritual and people - how this person was having job troubles & needed prayer, how this man was maturing and was expressing a desire for leadership, how the church "Timothy" was progressing in Bible College according to his professors, etc, etc. In other words - the exact reason why the Apostles appointed the 7 Servants (Deacons?)in Acts chapter 6.

I hope all this helps you Marc, for it is a noble effort to move toward the goal you seek.

"How do we do it in our churches?" With lots of soul-searching, prayer, listening, teaching, diligence, and perserverence.

May the Lord be with you!

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2000

If Christians would give up all this institutionalism and go back to the Bible there would be no *Boards* of any kind. Boards are for making decissions about big business. The Lord didn't die for *big business.*

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

This coming from one who doesn't even believe in churches at all !

These are words without meaning, shape without substance.

Oh, by the way Nelta, do you have those apologies prepared yet for the *good men and women* you denigrated in your last thread?????????

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Nelta,

It is true that "traditional church boards" are not necessarily biblical (though depending upon how they operate are not necessarily non-biblical- remember the council in Acts 15? This sounds like a board reasoning by the scriptures). And it is true that the church today has some problems. However, it is not necessarily true that the church is not "big business".

On the Day of Pentecost the church started and immediately rose to 3,000 people (Acts 2). Not long after the church had grew to 5,000 (Acts 4:4). If this is not "big business", I do not know what is! And I do not know how the church could operate without some kind of order and leaders... the truth is... they couldnt, that is why the 7 were appointed in Acts 6.

We are in the business of winning souls (Mt.28:18-20; Mk.16:15, 16)... true, this is a different type of business, but it still is big business... the most important business there is by the way!

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Excellent work, Marc!

You're comprehension of this subject really shows where your heart is at.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Hey, Mark, are you talking about my little satire? I will apology when you apology for adding to God word and calling it scripture.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Marc,

Leadership has been a key issue at the church I am serving, and God has made wonderful progress. I'll share what has happened and my thoughts. Hope it helps.

When I interviewed two years ago, I interviewed with the "Board." The board consisted not only of an elder (at the time, there was only one) and deacons, but also the SS Superintendent, the Treasurer, and the Secretary (all of whom were women, and all of whom had a vote). I questioned this in the interview. Apparently it had arisen when there was a lack of men in the position of elder. I told them I did not feel it was the biblical or effective pattern, and said I would like to see it changed when possible. My thought, and that of the elder at the time, was to develop leaders and have a larger number of elders, in order to make the transition more acceptable.

The church had been in decline for many years. My primary and initial goal was to help us rediscover and refocus on our purpose. I am not a Rick Warren "groupie," but I do believe his emphasis on being aware of the five areas of purpose and maintaining balance between them is both biblical and effective. Our adult SS class began a study of passages dealing with the church, asking the questions: "What is the church supposed to BE and what is the church supposed to DO?" In addition to the five "do" purposes made popular in Warren's book, we saw three "be" purposes. The "do" purposes outlined the actions of the church, while the "be" purposes described its character. As we saw them, they are: Committed & Submitted to God's Purpose (vs. our own agendas); Reliant on God's Power; United as God's People. These should characterize everything the church does (i.e., the "do" areas of: Worship; Fellowship; Discipleship; Ministry; Outreach).

I mention this, because, as I considered it, these purposes also gave a way of organizing the roles of elders and deacons. I believe the oversight elders give to the church should be in the area of the "be" purposes. They should focus directly on the character . . . essence of the church. The deacons then, should be the people leading the five "do" purposes. I use the analogy of a train. The elders are in the engine, setting the pace and direction for the train. The deacons are divided among the five cars. The cars go where, when and how fast the engine leads. The specific activity in the cars is led by the people in each respective "car." As a church grows, this model will need to be modified. Staff will be hired to lead each car, and deacons will become their chief volunteers. Further, as things get larger, and there is more activity, the elders will become the "supervisors" back at the station - determining (with God's guidance) the direction of the church. In the analogy: where the train will go, what route it will take, when it will leave, arrive, return, etc. The "Senior" minister (call him what you want, there is typically one staff member given more authority by the elders) will become the "engineer," making the daily decisions that accomplish the direction set by the elders.

This is what we discovered and set as our goal . . . now for how we have proceeded toward it. Right or wrong, as I said, I was not going to push for the transition from board to elders until the "climate" was right for that change being accepted. The thing that brought that about was input from another church.

We are located 13 miles from Central Christian Church, in Mesa, AZ. The senior minister (Cal Jernigan) who recently took over from Leroy Lawson became a Christian at our church (Scottsdale Christian Church.) Someone suggested we go over and see if he and Central could give us some . . . . insight into what we needed to do to assist our "recovery." As a result of that meeting, Cal and an elder came over one night and spoke with our board. They said the chief "earthly" reason for how well things had gone at Central was their leadership structure. The elders are the sole earthly authority. They rarely vote. They reach a consensus. They respect the knowledge and experience of the senior minister in areas of ministry, just like they look to the contractor among them when they are considering a building decision. They said programs, ministries, quality of music, etc. all help, but the key is an effective leadership structure - which also happens to be the biblical structure.

Through the providential working of God, in ways too numerous to mention here, our board decided that night to transition to the biblical pattern of church leadership. It required a change of bylaws. We did that. Now, the only thing the church membership votes on would be disbanding the church. Major decisions like selling the property to purchase another location and hiring a new senior minister receive congregational input, but the decision is made by the elders. FYI, when it comes to hiring additional "ministerial" staff, input is received from the elders only, and the senior minister makes the final decision. Support staff (e.g., secretaries, maintenance, etc.) are hired by the senior minister or someone delegated by him.

Now . . . we are still a church of 50, with two elders (a man from the congregation and myself). That does form a plurality, but we also realized that there is something to be gained from people who might not be qualified yet for the office of elder. So, until our eldership expands, we have formed a leadership team. It consists of deacons and other men who have taken initiative in ministering in the church. There are no votes. The other men have no authority, per se. We discuss matters and generally arrive at a consensus. If there is a need to make a decision, the other elder and I make it. Until there is a larger eldership, we welcome the input from this group. Also, it serves as a means of training them for future responsibility and authority.

That is where we are. As I said, I hope it helps. I don't know your situation. It certainly helped that we were only 50 people. It is much easier to make the changes we did in a church our size . . . though, not for long. FYI, our "partnership" with Central has progressed to the point that they are using us as the basis for a "church plant." I preached there last Sunday and our worship leader led the Contemporary services. Cal then encouraged people who live closer to us, to consider transferring to our church. This will provide "momentum" that will push us months and even years ahead of where we would be without this partnership. I mention this, not only as a subtle way to solicit your prayers . . . but also as an encouragement. Like I said, I don't know your situation. SCC did not have a lot "going for it" when I started - in terms of history, direction, structure, and attendance. God has worked wonderfully to turn all of that around. He is truly the awesome God who does "immeasurably more . . . "

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Excellent work Steve.

Your church will benefit greatly from your methods and goals in this area. Isn't it just amazing how God works things out for us when we allow Him the chance to do so and are willing to accept what He sets in motion.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

What you talkin' about, Nelta?

When did I add something to God's Word - other than "Amen"?

Call it satire if you like - what you wrote was an INTENTIONAL shot at people in this Forum because they do not hold to the heresay you try to spread. So we're still waiting on the apology - we're just not holding our breaths!

Oh, by the way, Myself and others here will always be here to act as an Antibiotic to prevent the spread of the disease of your "satire" and unfounded accusations. Therefore your little "hit & run" tactics won't work.

Have a nice day!

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Steve,

Help me out....

Please list the "DO" activites..

1. 2. 3. 4. 5.

and the 5 "BE" purposes.

1. 2. 3. 4. 5.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Duane,

As we saw it, at least, there are three "Be" purposes and five "Do" purposes.

BE: * Committed/Submitted to God's Purpose * Reliant upon God's Power * United as God's People

DO: * Worship * Fellowship * Discipleship * Ministry * Outreach/Evangelism

Hope you find these helpful.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2000

Thank you Mark and Steve for your input. I will continue to pray and work on many of these things. And I trust God WILL continue to work in those who are willing to follow!

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2000