I am going to sum up my thinking on the discussions I have been involved in with a few more thoughts.

To say people have special gifts today (not just inborn talents) one would have to take ALL the gifts as relevant for today. Where there is the gift of teaching, evangelizing, leading, (which is taken today) and leave out the others, prophets, tongue speaking, is to pick and choose from the special gifts.

To have elders as the new body had, there would have to be men today who are chosen by the H.S. Without this Spirit filling, mere man would (as some do) be polluted, because power pollutes mere humans. Traditions are gradually started and then totally accepted such as the formal worship (never mentioned in the N.T.)where some mere men are elevated to positions of deciding for others, as they (the others) sit in the pews and observe. Brethren, this is not scriptural.

We have the guide (the perfect) today. We are all to be teachers of one another. Just as the miracles (signs and wonders) by Christ and the apostles were done to confirm the word, so were the special gifts given to equip the infant body. Many times today we hear people compare themselves to the apostles who were inspired. We have no apostles alive today, but we do have their inspired writings to guide us in interacting with one another.

We have talents given by God at birth. We have those who are good people-persons. We have people who are good at being lifteruppers.

Finally, when I post one of my satires on the Institution that has engulfed God's people today, of course it is exaggerated, with grains of truth. One has to wonder why some people get so defensive unless maybe they see themselves in the situations.

If we love the Lord we will love other Christians and do all we have the ability to do to uplift one another without claiming to have special gifts and special positions in the kingdom. Special positions elevates mere humans. Jesus never intended one human be elevated above his spiritual brothers. That is done with titles and pedestal sitting. We are all ministers of the word and of one another.

It appears in a couple of rounds in a discussion all can be said that should be said.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Answers

Nelta,

Hope you are around to read this, I'm not sure you have read any of my posts (After Danny and E. Lee...I may be the third person you do not read...I say this because you don't respond to my posts).

I guess you think then (about not having elders today) that it was a futile effort for Paul to write down the qualifications for elders? Such a waste of time on his part.

As to your words... "Finally, when I post one of my satires on the Institution that has engulfed God's people today, of course it is exaggerated, with grains of truth. One has to wonder why some people get so defensive unless maybe they see themselves in the situations."

Do you not think that God's children SHOULD get defensive when one such as yourself bashes His church, His leaders, and His people so frequently? After all we are called to make a DEFENSE!

I have to ask you Nelta, why exaggerate the problem at all? Is that something a child of the King should do?

You say: "If we love the Lord we will love other Christians and do all we have the ability to do to uplift one another without..."

I don't see how any of your little satires are uplifting do you? If you see a problem with the group of Christians you are meeting with, pray about it, do your best to seek wise counsel to fix the problem. DO NOT cause more of a problem by blowing it out of proportion.

Yes, we do have problems in the church. We will always have problems in the church, but we personally are not to make them worse or sound worse than they already are.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Nelta

I have read your objections to the church, refering to it as an institution in a degrading manner. Your satires are often a good example of this. You speak poorly of the Elders of the church and seem to have no understanding of what the bible teaches regarding their responsibility. I have never known an elder that felt the church should, (sit in the pew) and take orders from them.

You state, (Special positions elevates mere humans). That statement is absolutly contrary to the scriptures. Evangelist and elders often gain the admiration and respect of mankind for the Godly lives they live, their humility and compassion for others. And the bible does say they are to be APT to teach. The manner in which they are to be chosen destroys your implications. Read Act's 2:38 to discover the relationship of the Elders and the Holy Spirit.

I am interested in your response to the following :

1.You don't believe the church should meet in,(formal worship). a. Have you ever studied the OT passover,the sacrifice, shewbread, the crucifixition,the resurrection, the upperroom or the book of Hebrews. You might just find a reason for meeting with the, (Formal Church)every,(Lords day),Sunday.

2. You reject the Elders a. YOU meet with a group to TEACH them. b. It seems to me that YOU want to be in CHARGE. The elders aren't qualified to teach, but YOU are. Do you want to be THE elder?

3. I have glanced at your Web Page.It is purported to teach but what I found was YOU brought to the forefront in all things.I see this reflected in your writings also. I suspect the problem YOU have with the church is more in line with the fact that the Church does not allow you to preach and the Elders do not agree with your unbiblical doctrine. Therefore YOU want to TEACH others in homes, etc.

4. You NEVER use scripture for a basis for your claims. Is it because there is none or is this a new, (GOSPEL ACCORDING to NELTA)?

In closing let me refer you to one passage of scripture.

Jn. 12:48 He that rejects me and does not receive my sayings has one who judges him. The word that I spoke will judge him at the last day!

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Nelta, you make several assumptions in this post- first you assume that the Holy Spirit does not choose today's Elders in the same fashion as the early church. Can the Holy Spirit function in the same way as did in the NT? Yes, he can. The second assumption you make is that the bible is the "perfect" ... which I think you are refering back to the I Cor. 13:10 arguement. Many scholoars and I being one of them beleive that the "perfect" in that passage refers to Christian maturity. Yes, the Bible is perfect for us, but if you refer it as the perfect in I Cor. then that assumption is wrong.

Nelta, I have been on the forum for sometime now. THose who "attack" you are those who see themselves contending for the faith. They feel that it is their responsibility to make sure that the truth of God is accurately laid out. I am no different. When I do respond to certain post not only do I do so to interject my personal views and opinions, but I also do so to gain new insights on the scriptures and to give my insight in return. But, what I have noticed is that you tend to do a hit and run tactic with people in the forum. Somethings you never really answer. I am not coming down on you or judging you in anyway. But, my request is that you stay in a post for a while and reason out the things that you started.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Well Nelta,

Since you decided not to respond on the "Guarded Pulpit" thread - let's continue things here:

You said, "To say people have special gifts today (not just inborn talents) one would have to take ALL the gifts as relevant for today. Where there is the gift of teaching, evangelizing, leading, (which is taken today) and leave out the others, prophets, tongue speaking, is to pick and choose from the special gifts." And also, "We have talents given by God at birth. We have those who are good people-persons. We have people who are good at being lifteruppers."

That is our exact point here. The reputible scholars here do not believe in the "Special" gifts today. Tongues, prophecy, special knowledge, healing, etc. were given to the 1st century church only because the "perfect", the written Word of God, had not yet been completed.

All, however, have been born with "talents" or abilities that are entirely human and should (personally I think MUST) be used in service to the Lord. That means that men who are "talented" at presenting God's Word should preach. Those with good leadership qualities should be leaders (Elders, Pastors, Deacons,etc). Those who are good at encouraging others should do so in the format that suits them best (conversation, cards, e-mail,etc). Those with strong backs should "put them to the plow" for God. With this said, the converse is also true. Those who do not have talents in certain areas, should leave those areas to those who ARE talented. Some people have no business in the pulpit based on their abilities, just like I have no business leading a song service (the spirit is willing, but the tonsils are weak).

Then you said, "To have elders as the new body had, there would have to be men today who are chosen by the H.S...... "Brethren, this is not scriptural."

Wrong......The Holy Spirit did not choose the first century Elders - the Evangelist did. Read how Paul tells both Timothy & Titus to "appoint Elders in every city as I directed you" Titus 1:5. True, these appointments were made based upon both the "leading" of the Spirit and by their meeting of the requirements laid down by Paul - but is that not exactly how we should do it today? Find men who aspire to help lead God's Flock, verify that they exhibit the quailities Paul mentions and prayfully entreat God for wisdom concerning the decision? It don't get no more Scriptural than this!

You stated, "We are ALL to be teachers of one another."

Again, that is not quite correct. Those who do not know the Word, are not to teach it! Use some common sense here, how can you correctly teach that which you do not know? Those in error, such as Apollos in Ephesus, must be correctly taught before they can teach.

Oh, and don't forget what Paul said in I Tim 2:12, "I DO NOT allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet"...and then he goes on to explain why in verses 13 & 14. So yes again, not ALL of us are to be teachers of one another.

And now - back to the crux of the buscuit, you said, "Finally, when I post one of my satires on the Institution that has engulfed God's people today, of course it is exaggerated, with grains of truth. One has to wonder why some people get so defensive unless maybe they see themselves in the situations."

Why do people get defensive? Like I said in the "Guarded Pulpit" thread, when you make these claims you intentionally cast aspertions on the motives and character of those here. You try to use the smoke screen of satire and exaggeration - but you betray yourself.

Jesus could use this method with His parables, because He knew the hearts and minds of men. You Are Not Jesus, so quit trying to act like it by pretending to know, and thereby accuse, our motives and hearts. Yes, we are all still waiting for that apology you owe for this transgression of the *good men* here.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

And I should add *good women* to the apology list as well.

Excellent job D. Lee !!

That goes for you too Faris & AKelley!

Methinks this ugly nail has been smitten on the head, mightily! (and truthfully)

Thanks for contending for the Faith, Brothers & Sisters

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Mark,

Your refutations of Neltas words have been encouraging and enlightening. I appreciate the way you have contended for The Faith!!

We must remember not to grow weary in defending that faith.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Sister D. Lee,

Amen to our "not growing weary"!!

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000