Here is another satire depicting the thinking of SOME among us. If someone wishes to respond to this little play I would suggest that the subject is dealt with and not my personality. I would also like to say there are at lease three people in this forum whose responses I do not read. We soon find out those who are interested in discussing the subject and those who wish to show they do not intend to apply the fruits of the Spirit in their discussions. Anyway....here goes!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Setting: The chapel of the W.H.N.C. Time: Friday evening Characters: Bros. Eldership, Bro. Professional, Bro. Concern, various other Bros. Brethren.

Bro. Elder #1, "Welcome to the monthly Men's Business Meeting, Brethren. As you know some of the woman are suggesting this monthly meeting be opened to them."

Bro. Elder #2, "Ha! That will be the day. Can you just see all those emotional women coming to one of these most important meetings?"

Bro. Quietly, "I believe the women should be allowed to attend. They have much wisdom to add. And besides, they are members of this Church and anything that effects the Church effects every members, don't you think?"

Bro. Elder #3, "Now lets keep in mind that women tend to want to run things and there is the possibility that if they attend this most important meeting, they would soon be usurping our authority. They are suppose to keep silent in the Church and our meetings are held in the Church, so go figure."

Bro. Elder #1, "Lets have a show of hands for those who believe the women should be allowed to attend."

No hands go up!

Bro. Elder #1, "The Nos have it. What other business should be brought before this group tonight?"

Bro. Concern, "I would like to make a suggestion."

Bro. Elder #1, "All right, Bro. Concern, go right ahead."

Bro. Concern, "On Sunday morning we have a large group of people who come here to Worship. I'm wondering if we might allow different members take turns standing in the pulpit and giving their take on what the scriptures mean. We have several men in this group who are knowledgeable in the scriptures and, I'm sure, would love to use their talent of proclaiming to the Sunday group."

Bro. Professional, "What? Then I would have no job. HaHa."

Bro. Elder #1, "Bro. Concern, I thought we had put that matter to rest. The Eldership at this great Church hires people to fill certain positions. Bro. Professional has been hired to fill the pulpit. Why should it be opened to just any Tom, Dick, or Harry who wants to speak? The Eldership would lose God-ordained authority over the pulpit we took your advise. The pulpit is a powerful influence on those in the pew. We must be careful what those tender sheep are fed."

Bro. Concern, "Yes, I agree it is a powerful influence on those in the pews. And that the average sheep depends on the pulpit for his beliefs. That's why I believe different ones should present all sides of a question so the sheep can be encouraged to study for themselves. By hearing more than one speaker wouldn't they have a broader base from which to launch into a serious study of the scriptures?"

Bro. Elder #1, "That is out of the question, Bro. Concern. Is there another matter that should be brought before the Eldership at this time?"

-- nib Nelta Brock http://members.xoom.com/atlen/

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2000

Answers

Hi, Nelta,

Am I correct in guessing that you have been a pastor's wife or at least in the Church of Christ all of your life?

I'm sure that many of the problems you are highlighting are common to most Christian groups.

Do you think that if some of the professors who came on so strong about 'contending for the faith' had emphasized 'edifying or building up in the faith in a spirit of love and forbearance' that there would be less contention?

I appreciate your forbearing attitude. I don't know what the internecine struggle is all about, and I'm sure you don't want to re- hash it.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Quite honestly, in 26 years in the Christian Church, I have seen few churches that exhibited the grossly dysfunctional nature of Nelta's little "plays." Although there have been some. I feel sorry that Nelta seems to have been hurt by association with one or more such dysfunctional bodies.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

John, I get tired of people as you saying because I try to get people to see that tradition is wrong that I have had bad experiences. I have not had bad experiences but I have lived long enough to see that what is being done today in the *Churches* is not according to scripture.

If you wish to respond to one of my posts please deal scripturally and not personally.

For instance, are you a preacher? Are others from the pew allowed to share the pulpit? If people want to speak up and make a comment (besides *amen*) or give another opinion (preachers give opinions if they say anything that is not the inspired scripture)seperate and a part from yours is that allowed? I think not!!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Nelta, if the Lord were to impress someone with a word of edification or exhortation then they should give it as a testimony on how God has influenced their life. In the Church in which I am Pastor/Preacher, I share the pulpit with the elders or even young Timothys who desire to preach. But, I would say this- it is a responsibility of the pastoral staff to safe guard the awesome task of preaching from the pulpit (I hate the term pulpit), there are many false teachers out there who would really love to destroy the work of the Lord in a church.

So, I do see value in making sure that the Lord has His way not Satan, and it is the spiritual duty of the pastoral staff to protect the church from wolves.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Thanks for your kind response, JK. My point is if we are going to follow the scriptures for our gatherings there will be no Pastorial staff. IF we pattern ourselves after the teachings of the inspired apostles and our Lord, Jesus, there will be no clergy/laity.

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

AKelley,

Amen to that! It seems that so many times now days, just anyone is let into the church to preach regardless of their doctrinal beliefs. I am glad to hear your elders are guarding against the wolves and false doctrines!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Akelley & D Lee

Good job on pointing out that the flock Must be protected from the wolves in sheep's clothing. There are churches (and even Forums) that are full of "sheep-shearers".

Nelta,

It does my heart good to see that you have not left your old ways of discounting the Scriptures in favor of your own opinions - God forbid that you might have been converted to the truth of God's Word during your little vacation.

First, I would like to point out that my own preaching ministry is a direct result of a dear brother's willingness (and even insistence) on sharing the pulpit with any and all men of the church that were knowledgeable of the Scriptures and were to able to present God's Word in an intelligible manner. That beloved Brother is none other than your buddy, Danny Gabbard ! So much for your comment, "I would also like to say there are at lease three people in this forum whose responses I do not read. We soon find out those who are interested in discussing the subject and those who wish to show they do not intend to apply the fruits of the Spirit in their discussions" - as I'm sure he is one to whom which you refer.

Second, you said, "My point is if we are going to follow the scriptures for our gatherings there will be no Pastoral staff. IF we pattern ourselves after the teachings of the inspired apostles and our Lord, Jesus, there will be no clergy/laity."

I agree with not having the distinction between clergy & laity - we are all equal in God's eyes, as we are all sinners. But THERE IS Biblical precedent for dedicated positions based on God-given talents and you know that passage as well as I do:

"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as EVANGELISTS, and some as pastors and teachers." Eph 4:11

How about: "do the work of an EVANGELIST, fulfill your ministry." 2 Tim 4:5

And don't forget: "And the next day we departed and came to Caesarea; and entering the house of Phillip the EVANGELIST.." Acts 21:8

So yes, there are God-made distinctions in what we are to be doing in the Kingdom, and to usurp or intrude on another's position is the equivalent of going against God's Word & Spirit and at the very least leads only to divisiveness and confusion within the church.

And, speaking of divisiveness, Why did you even post this comment and question in the first place? You stated above & in the past that you don't believe in the professional Ministry and also in the past you made it clear that you do not even believe in the "Church" as it is practiced today. The only possible motive for this post was for you to stir up divisiveness among the brethren here. Connie spoke of edifying each other - your post sure doesn't do that.

If I wasn't before - I'm sure that I am now one you will not respond to, Oh well. It is just like Jesus said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Matt. 15:13-14. I just praise God that He blessed me with good (corrected) eyesight!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Mark, I do not intend to throw insults back and forth with you or anyone else. I would only comment that you keep mentioning Evangelists. Yes...there is a great need for evangelists and they are to be helped with their necessities as they GO OUT (as Jesus commanded) and not STAY IN as mere men have *commanded*. Preaching to the choir is unlike going out into the world and teaching the gospel to every creature. He said Go...today we hear STAY.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Nelta;

Although the current minister does do the bulk of the sermons, others of the elders and deacons have spoken from the pulpit. Our last minister had a policy of "training up" new ministers/evangelists/whatever you wanna call 'em, and would let young men in our church take the pulpit on Sunday mornings (3 or 4 non-elder/deacon men last year at least).

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Hello again, John. Thanks for responding in a civil way.

Do you believe the N.T. is our guide in the way we do things? Or can people set up and carrying on in whatever manner they wish?

If your answer is yes to the first question and no to the second then we are coming from the same direction. Just a comment or two on your post.

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My main point is not that the preacher is willing to share the pulpit. My wonder is whether there should even be a pulpit. The early groups met together in an informal way to encourage ONE ANOTHER. (More below)

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Again, there is nothing in scripture that would have a Minister (we are all ministers) direct and teach others to become special Ministers to the group. Yes, we must all be students of the word and teach one another as we gather together informally (discussion) and as we see one another going about our daily lives doing good deeds for God, being godly-examples to one another. Two people might gather together and encourage each other as they sang to and with each other. That number can increase as long as the encouraging, one of another, is not lost in formality, or in numbers too much for people to know the needs of one another. Too much to where each cannot confess his sins (one to another).

-- John Wilson (mrbatman@earthlink.net), May 08, 2000.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Nelta,

You operate under a defective definition of the word "EVANGELIST". As a quick reference look up Strong's # 2099 & its root 2097. The word simply means one who proclaims or declares good news. Again, you make a non-Biblical assertation that "Evangelist" only means going out to proclaim.

Go to the book of Acts and study WHERE the apostles did much of their teaching. It was in assembled groups: see Acts 1:12-22; 2:1(together in one place); 3:1 (going to the Temple at the 9th hours); 3:11 (all the people ran together TO THEM at the so-called portico of Solomon); 4:23-26,31, 32-33; 9:32 (Peter went down to the saints who lived at Lydda); and don't forget Paul boring poor Eutychus to death in the upper room in Ephesus, Eph. 20:7-12.

These are not insults Nelta, these are TRUTH. You have made the assertion, through your post, that the good men here who earn their living from Gospel (as proven good by Paul) are not to be trusted. AND AS SUCH - YOU OWE THEM AN APOLOGY !!! But you have done this before, so I won't hold my breathe waiting for one.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

First of all, Mark, you are not telling the truth. I have never called any of these *good men* untruthful. I believe they are as honest as they can be but are steeped in tradition, and cannot see the scriptures without their blinders on. I apologize to no one for standing up for the teachings of the N.T.

We have no apostles today who went about helping the early groups to grow in the Lord. But we do have their inspired word. Again, we are to teach one another...the more mature in the faith, the less mature till they mature to a point that they too can help others.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

"We soon find out those who are interested in discussing the subject and those who wish to show they do not intend to apply the fruits of the Spirit in their discussions."

Nelta, I am wondering what fruit of the Spirit you apply when you make comments like the above?

Also, why is it that you most generally show the Church and it's leaders in a negative light? What fruit of the Spirit are you showing then?

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Nelta the best "pulpit" is the world... we are not just to preach to those where we are at (of course we do- for example the Jerusalem church), but we also need to preach the word of God where ever and when ever we are. Yes, the modern church does look like a museum peice for spiritual "fat cats" and a condolesent home for retired "saints", but Church is to be a MASH unit for the sick and dying. The church is a place were the called out ones are to be renewed in the fight in order to fight some more to win against the forces of darkness. Many of our safe guarded traditions are nothing more than that- do they have value- some. But, what is truly important that we do stay biblical. The pastoral staff of elders IS biblical. And it is their job (swo to speak), to guard the church from those wolves who might want to spread false teaching within the Church.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

The older people (elders) are to be able to stand against false doctrine. However, the way they do that is with the sword of truth and not banning others from talking, either publically or privately. All Christians just must equip themselves with the word that they will not be led astray with false doctrine. The Christian's weapons are the word of truth...nothing more.

And BTW giving titles in the kingdom (Pastorial staff) is getting away from the simple teachings of scripture ISTM.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Nelta, I do not want to get into this debate with you, when so many have done this before, but you make the distinction that is not biblically accurate. The "elders" in the scripture does not apply to those who are older in age. It is rather referring to the position that a man, who is qualified, is placed in. An Elder can be young if he matches to the qualifications laid out in scripture namely in Timothy.

The term that I use (maybe loosely) as pastoral staff refers to the ministers, and Elders (shepherds) who are in the role of authority over Christ's Church. Although the term pastoral staff does not appear in the NT itself, the connotation certainly does.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Nelta, the above, which you have stated is simply not true. Please look closely at the following scripture that will refute your belief that the elders are not to ban others from teaching false doctrines. Of course we each have an individual responsibility to check out what others have said against the Word. This responsibility does not negate the responsibility of the elders.

Rom 16:17-18 17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and TURN AWAY FROM THEM. 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

2 Cor 11:1-15 1 I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin. 3 But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ. 4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully. 5 For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles. 6 But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not {so} in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made {this} evident to you in all things. 7 Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge? 8 I robbed other churches, taking wages {from them} to serve you; 9 and when I was present with you and was in need, I was not a burden to anyone; for when the brethren came from Macedonia, they fully supplied my need, and in everything I kept myself from being a burden to you, and will continue to do so. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be stopped in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows {I do!} 12 But what I am doing, I will continue to do, that I may CUT OFF OPPORTUNITY from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds.

Gal 1:6-9 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

1 Tim 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,

1 Tim 6:3-5 3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited {and} understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.

2 Tim 3:1-4:4 1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. 6 For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 And just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these {men} also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected as regards the faith. 9 But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, as also that of those {two} came to be. 10 But you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, {and} sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium {and} at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord delivered me! 12 And indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. 13 But evil men and impostors will proceed {from bad} to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned {them} 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. CHAPTER 4 1 I solemnly charge {you} in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season {and} out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but {wanting} to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.

2 Tim 4:14-15 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds. 15 Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching.

Titus 1:9-16 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who MUST BE SILENCED because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not {teach} for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. For this cause reprove them severely that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but by {their} deeds they deny {Him} being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed.

Titus 3:10-11 10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

I Jn 4:1-6 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. 4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

II Jn 1:7-11 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Heb 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Again AKelley & D. Lee,

Thank you so much for your wise and accurate discernment of God's Word. You speak much truth - which of course would have to be God's Word.

John,

I apologize if my last post might have confused you. Apparently Nelta & I hit the "enter" key at the same time and the server posted the 1st half of her message and then the last half of mine. I am pleased to see how your church has operated. That is the exact type of experience I have always seen in the Christian/CoC Restoration Movement churches I have been a part of............

Which is, Nelta, why you owe the preachers (and now Elders too)here an apology. You said,"I have never called any of these *good men* untruthful". I never said that you did. You owe them an apology because you intentionally cast aspertions upon their motives and character with this thread. There are indeed many *good men* here - so why did you initiate this thread in order to attack them?

You've made it clear time and time again, you don't like the Biblical profession of preachers/evangelists, that you do not accept the authority of the Biblical Eldership, nor do you even accept the church as it functions today. Why do you continue to try to sew discord here among those YOU called *good men*?

That's the beauty of America and freedom of Religion - you're free to go elsewhere and join a group with similar ideas as your own. And we're free to continue and preach, teach, & live by the truth of God's Word. Persistance is only admirable when based upon truth.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2000

Wondering why the preachers of today don't allow the pewee's to speak...I asked the preacher..."Why don't you follow the example for a meeting of Christians given to us in the New Testament?"

Preachers reply, "Well, we would loose control!"

Gotta control those sheep so's "we" can be just like the rest of the world.

Occasionally I watch a little TEEVEE preaching to remind myself why I do not attend meetings. Too many mean controllers.

Watched Pat Robertson the other day..."We have almost reached our goal, (of fleecing you fools) we only need another million and then I can take that tri...I mean we can rejoice in the abundance of fools...I mean funds...PRAISE THE LORD!"

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Mark H.

Some of your words ring true here.

As far as I'm concerned, most TV preachers probably ought to be rounded up and publicly flogged {:~).... partly because of the false doctrine they propigate and partly due to their duping & fleecing of too many people. I'm sure there are probably some good, truthful, functioning TV ministries out there - but they are hard to find.

Also, in local churches there ARE Some who assume too much power. That is why I oppose preachers in the "Pastor System" who believe it is their right & responsibility to direct & control all aspects of their church. When a preacher calls himself "The Pastor", red flags go up and I have questions that need to be answered before I would associate with such person.

The Biblical pattern of leadership definitely gives us the example of a collegiate Eldership (a Group of men) that worked together to maintain sound doctrine and to shepherd the Flock of God. Oftentimes one person may be delegated to be the "axeman" by the group and is sent to correct or rebuke an erring brother on behave of the entire group, therefore we should not draw premature conclusions about that individual until the whole story is known.

When you read the New Testament, it becomes obvious that correction is often needed and that rebuke is sure to follow if correction is not taken to heart. Jesus was awful rough on the Pharisees for these reasons and Paul sure took the opportunity to do the same in several of his epistle letters. Look at III John 9-10 and see how he wanted a "piece" of Diotrephes to put him to public rebuke due to his wicked words.

Correction & rebuke are hard things to deal with - but realize they are not ALWAYS the result of one man's desires, but a decision of a group of Spirit-minded men, which should be taken to heart for the preservation of our own souls.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Mark W.,

"Jesus was awful rough on the Pharisees". The main reason Jesus was rough on the Pharisees was this ...(John 8:42 KJV) "Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

(John 8:43 KJV) "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

(John 8:44 KJV) "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."

And their progeny, religious or physical are still the same, yet most Christians refuse to believe it.

IMO, the main reason Jesus is rough on the Christians in the Letters to the Churches of Revelation is because they think they know it all yet Jesus says...(Rev 3:17 KJV) "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Rarely do you hear, if ever, a Christian PRAISE THE LORD for his poverty. I suppose some do. Usually I hear people praising the Lord for their material wealth thinking that this is the blessing of God. Yes, God can give material but a shrewd businessman can accumulate it on his own. Only God can give Spiritual insite. As in the days of old when a man had this Spiritual insite he was usually hated, as where the Apostles.

More than once I was chastised by preachers for not wearing a suit to church meetings. "Read James!"

(James 2:2 KJV) "For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;"

(James 2:3 KJV) "And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:"

For some reason those particular people would overlook such a verse because it did not fit in with what they were being taught.

Today the government Church will not preach re: the Constitution, evils of usury, evil practice of taxing the American people to our own destruction. The list can get rather large, but if and when a state authorized church (via tax exemption) preaches LIBERTY he is harassed by government and told to preach only what the government wants preached, ie, multi culturalism, alternate lifestyles, etc.

(Mat 6:24 KJV) "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

How many preachers bow to mammon, via tax exempt status?

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Mark H.

I'll agree with the fact that a lot of "pulpit People" (I refuse to refer to those types as preachers) do not proclaim the whole oracle of God. They avoid the tough subjects, some of which you mentioned. But I have never heard of anyone do so in order to manintain their tax exempt status. They preach their garbage because they have no "Intestinal Fortitude" to deal with what society thinks are controversial topics. Those guys are nothing but big "Weiners". The leaders of the Restoration Movement made a point of preaching-out against the "controversial" subjects - which is probably one of the main reasons the Movement took off so fast in the beginning (just like the church in Jerusalem did).

These guys keep themselves within their own comfort zone in order to avoid conflict with those in the church, not because of those in the Gov't.

I'll gladly take my tax exemptions & loopholes for being a preacher as they are "few and far between"; but they do not dictate what I preach. In fact, several times this year alone, I have blasted politicians, insurance salemen (corrupted ones anyway),"alternative lifestyle" promoters, et.al. If in doubt of that, go to the gun- control thread of a month or so ago and read my views of what the politicians are trying to do to us. I don't preach any differently - ask Danny or Scott about that!

Oh, as far as thanking God for poverty - "been there, done that, & brought back the T-Shirt".

As far as wearing suits go------I hate them. I've seen people belittled for not wearing them over the years. Realize though, this isn't THE BEAST - it is just a cultural difference between generations. Biggotted...yes, unwise...definitely, unscriptural....absolutely! A fact of life....unfortunately. Teaching is the only way to combat such ideas - and that take times.

I look at the wearing of a suit in the same way I look at paying my taxes. I don't like or necessarily agree with either, but I do both so as not to offend a weaker brother and present myself as a stumbling block to him.

By the way, I have always paid my taxes (unfortunately) but I wear a suit in the pulpit less than 50% of the time - teaching in increments!

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Hi, Mark,

I'd like to ask a question about something you sayd above:

Also, in local churches there ARE Some who assume too much power. That is why I oppose preachers in the "Pastor System" who believe it is their right & responsibility to direct & control all aspects of their church. When a preacher calls himself "The Pastor", red flags go up and I have questions that need to be answered before I would associate with such person.

We call our minister 'Pastor', but as far as I know, that is just a 'shepherd of the flock' who feeds the people with God's word.

When you say 'Pastor system' what do you mean?

Our pastor is under the authority of the elders, and they all make decisions together.

They have hired him to be an 'overseer' sort of, because they are out making tents [;-)].

Please explain what you mean by what you said, because it's always been my understanding that a pastor is just one more vote. A vote we respect, however, with perhaps slightly more influence, because he's always ther on the job and has more information as to what is needed for the Body.

?

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Typos:

'said', not 'sayd'; and 'there', not 'ther'

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Connie,

The way in which I used the phrase the "Pastor System" above could basically be considered the way most Denominations work (at least in general). THE church Pastor is the man who makes all of the decisions, preaches, & basically just runs the entire show.

I don't mean to do it, but here I have to kind of pick on the Baptists for a minute - but do so only because I was raised as a child in that church and have firsthand knowledge. Their "Pastor" absolutely runs the show. Most do not even have church Elders, though many will have deacons which are usually not much more than figureheads, greeters & ushers.

This method absolutely stands in the face of the way the 1st Century church operated and basically came about due to the persecutions of the early centuries. Church leaders were always the first people targeted by those seeking to destroy the church, so the most knowledgable men left were given more authority so as to prevent the influx of false doctrine - they became the keepers of orthodoxy. Eventually this idea lead all the way to the Papal System by the 5th Century.

The Biblical method of church leadership as illustrated in the books of Acts, I Timothy, & Titus is to have a plurality of PastorS or ElderS (same word used, also can be translated Bishops or Presbuters). This group of men collegiately protect the flock and maintain its orthodoxy as given by the Scriptures. Each church was to have its own Elders which had authority ONLY in their own church. The plurality of Elders in a church would serve to prevent to fall of one man from destoying that church and the seperation of each church would prevent the fall of one church from affecting what another church did.

"Pastor" has become an acceptable title these days among just about every church group. Personally, I do not use it because I am currently not an Elder in my church - that title (In my opinion) belongs to the Elders. I feel "preacher" or "minister" are Biblically closer to what I do. Actually, "Hey You" works for me (as I ain't proud).

Your church seems to be pretty close to the Biblical pattern, so I reckon your man could call himself "Pastor" if he likes without causing much harm - and if he is functioning as an Elder as well, it would be a good title.

But in general, My "red flags" go up at the title "Pastor" until I can determine if that particular man is running the show or if he just likes that "Name".

Clear as mud now?

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000