Maybe we are all talking past each other. Please answer the following questions so we have a starting point for earnest dialogue:

1. What is it that you think you are "being accused" of saying?

2. What is it that you are really saying?

3. What is your definition of sanctification?

Thanks

PS. Also, please respond to the thread about I John.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Answers

For the sake of "peacemaking".....I will say a couple of things.....

1) There is nothing in Matt's post with which I would disagree.

2) Though we go at it from different angles....we end up with the same thing....i.e., maturity as Christians. I relate perfectly to what Matt said. Things that were a temptation to me years before....are no longer a temptation.....and there are other things I still struggle with.

3) When I refer to "angles" I mean....Matt feels more comfortable with a mindset of simply thinking "He might sin." I feel more comfortable operating in an environment that says...."If I do or don't.....there is no condemnation in Christ." His grace gives me the desire to pursue "holiness." I am not pursuing holiness in order to "retain" my salvation. That is works.....pure and simple.

4) Matt's response is certainly more convincing than the "newcreationstudies" website.

So John Wilson's response is absolutely correct.....I am 99.5% in agreement with Matt.....and the other .5% isn't worth the time to discuss it.

In the spirit of the R.M....."in all things we have love".......I....

1) Apologize to Matt for all things that may have been taken the wrong way.

2) Continue to affirm (which I already have).....that he is a brother in Christ.

3) I also will affirm......that Matt was by far the best youth minister I have ever had!!!!

May God help each of us we continue our walk with Him......and may the world know we are His disciples by the love we have for each other.

Respectfully and Humbly Submitted,

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Duane,

I appreciate the opportunity to clear things up. Unfortunately I will only be able to post once. I start a new job tommorow so my time is going to have to be mananged very tightly.

First of all, I will never reach a point where it is impossible for me to sin. That destroys the concept that I reach a level. There will never come a time when I am impervious to temptation. I will be tempted until the day I die. I could always sin until the day I die.

Next, I will always need the grace of God until the day I die. If I sin, I will need His grace. I will always need His strength and power (which is also grace) to the day I die. So, no one need say that I am saying that I will come to a point where I will no longer need it (not that you have said that Duane). If one does say that they are purposely misrepresenting the facts.

Also, (this is to Lee) I never said I was without sin in my conduct therefore I am not a liar. John stated "if we SAY we have no sin..." I would never say I had no sin because I am not omniscient. If I ever say that I have no sin (categorically denying any sin in all areas of my life) then I would be deceived. I would always be praying that God would reveal (through His word of course) any sin in my life. Yet there are sins I have fully conquered and that have no temtation over me. I have not cussed in years and I am not temted to do so. I have not had a drink in years, and am not temted to do so. There are, however, other sins which are still very tempting that I have not mastered yet. I rely on God's forgiveness to help me get to the point where I can conquer them. Rememeber, obedience is better than sacrifice.

If I can conquer one sin can I conquer two? Three? Is the potential there then to conquer all, given enough time and effort (and of course power from God)?

This is completely different than Weslyan or any other thing that the denominations have come up with. I believe its roots trace back to the Scriptures. I beleive this is what the apostles taught the early church as to what level they could perform at. Check out the prayers of Paul, he prayed for them to be sanctified entirely. He prayed that they would walk in a manner worthy (greek- axios which means to balance in a scale) of God, their calling, and the gospel.

What I am saying is this, God has empowered the Christian more than any other people in history. We are greater than the greatest prophet of the old testament (matt 11:11). Some say that is because of only where we stand with God but if you look at the context, Jesus is refering to the conduct of John and his ministry.

The Christian has the fulness of deity in bodily form, Col 2:9-10. This does NOT mean I am God, nor can I create a universe ex nihilo. I cannot perform miracles. I do have the same Spirit Jesus had in Him to walk in His steps.

Therefore, I beleive the Christian can, through the power of God, choose not to sin. If I can choose not to sin once, can I choose not to sin again? of course. How long? Well, each temptation is independent so I take the on a case by case basis. Therefore, I do not want to look too far down the road because today has enough trouble of its own. If I focus on living next week, or month, or year I will not live today, this hour, or this minute victoroiusly.

Sin is an addiction. Every human is addicted to it. How do you break an addiction? Do you tell the alcoholic he can have one beer a day? Do you tell the heroine junkie he can have one fix a day? No. Abstinence is the only way to break an addiction. Therefore, I strive to abstain from all sin. I strive to consider myself as dead to sin. If a drunk is dead, guess what; he ain't gonna drink no more! If I view myself as dead, I will be renewing my mind to say "no" to sin and "yes" to rightoeusness. It is a life-long process. I do not get zapped by the Holy Spirit in some second work of grace. It comes from second by second obedience to the will of the Father.

With all that said, that is why I cannot allow my mind to think that I WILL sin in the future. I allow my mind to think I MIGHT sin in the future therefore girding my mind for action to make the right decision when the time comes. On the other side of the coin, I renew my mind to think that "all those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and evil desires."

If I allow my mind to think I will sin, then I am setting myself up for failure. Remember, as a man thinks within him, so is he. If I am faced with a very difficult temptation, and my mind is trained that I will, and also by definition, must sin, then I will. If I have trained my mind that i must sin, will I remember I Cor. 10:13 that God is faithful and has provided the way of esacape for this temtptaion that i might be able to endure it? Maybe, but improbable. Notice that God has provided a way for us to overcome every temptation.

The Scripture speaks in absolute terms. Paraphrasing some scripture, "Since we have these promises, let us therefore cleanse ourselves from ALL defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting (completing) holiness in the fear of God." There are many other scriptures that speak in these absolute terms.

As far as sanctification goes, it is the process by which we are becoming holy. Holiness is defined as the character of God. Therefore, the process of sanctification, (prof. Bourne taught me it was a process :-) ), I shed the influence of the flesh and put on the character of God.

I hope this helps clear some things up. This is just the tip of the iceberg but I hope it summs up some of the main points. Thanks for the time to clarify. It is easier to think out of the heat!

I will check this forum back when I get back tonight. Tonight is family night out so I can't miss that! But come tommorow, I will only be able to post on the weekends (maybe).

Thanks for the civil, brotherly spirit of your questions.

In Christ,

Matt.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Well, I for one honestly can't find much fault with 99% of this ... it seems to be exactly the same thing Duane and Danny have said, just different ways of expressing it. And you are right, Matt ... the way you have described your position right now, it is definitely not a Wesleyan theology.

In the interest of peace, for "Blessed are the peacemakers ..."

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Matt

Once again, you da man! Well said! Although I am interested in what the newcreationstudies.org said differently than what you said?

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

3) When I refer to "angles" I mean....Matt feels more comfortable with a mindset of simply thinking "He might sin." I feel more comfortable operating in an environment that says...."If I do or don't.....there is no condemnation in Christ." His grace gives me the desire to pursue "holiness." I am not pursuing holiness in order to "retain" my salvation. That is works.....pure and simple.

I like the way you wrote this Danny. I like to think of it this way: I practice righteousness because of who God has made me (ie A Saint/Holy One). I use to think I had to practice righteousness in order to be Holy and you are right. That is law and therefor death.

It is great to have this forum - Satan doesn't like it though when we come to agree. He would rather us fight and misunderstand each other. It almost worked. I also want to say sorry if my attitude was not always in the spirit of Christ our King. I am learning.

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000