I would have never known it if only I had hit the "No" button to the "Notify Me of Responses Via E-Mail" section of posting new questions.

When I saw Benjamin Reeses statement about "casting pearl before swine".....I had to respond.

No Benjamin....it was not that at all.

I would not consider these men, whom I consider brothers in Christ, as "swine."

I do, however, consider them brothers in serious error....and that being the case I left the forum due to the verse in Proverbs that states...."Don't answer a fool according to their folly."

Let me explain.

That verse in Proverbs means.....in essence, "Don't answer a fool on his own terms." I know this to be the case because Solomon then turns right around and says to "Answer a fool."

The problem with this forum....as well as any forum....is that people set the agenda....and every question these guys have posted has been with an agenda.

As was e-mailed me today.....they should have the intellectual honesty to state their propositions up front....and then ask questions. Rather, the come with an agenda, their minds already made up, and then ask questions that are guided and intended to direct people into their pre-set discussion patterns.

I no longer will be drawn into that. In a properly conducted debate....that cannot happen.

I made it clear as to my feelings about debate. Anytime.....at any mutually agreed to netural place, I'm ready.

And after spending a great deal more time reading www.newcreationstudies.org.....I am more ready than ever.

Constantly we were told....."We don't believe in sinless perfection....that's not even in the Bible."

Listen to this direct quote from Jay Wilson...."God has opened the doorway of perfection for us."

Excuse me gentlemen....but if this is not sinless perfection....than what other kind of perfection is there???

And inconsistency....oh my.

Duane was chided for his "unedifying comments".....YET....listen to another direct quote from Jay Wilson concerning other views of Matthew 5:48...."Various weasel-worded explainations have been given in trying to blunt the thrust of Jesus statements."

Does that sound edifying to you to call someone elses honest scholarly opinion....weasel-worded?

Now don't get me wrong....I like it. I like it when a man calls it the way he sees it.

However, don't on the one hand have a self righteous attitude of correcting someone else who does the same thing.

This just scratches the surface of the inconsistencies in his writings. Add to the fact, these are only his views. There are plenty of other scholars who can present convincing arguments to the contrary.

But that is why this forum is not the place. There must be rules of debate in place....a decorum such as is not present here.

I mean, here.....you have to put up with people throwing in comments that are both uninformed....and just plain silly that distract from the issue at hand.

That....is the reason for my leaving the forum....at least on the discussion of this issue.

Like I said gentlemen......anytime.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Answers

Danny wrote:

But that is why this forum is not the place. There must be rules of debate in place....a decorum such as is not present here.

Yes, but it can be the place... Lee Saffold previously set up some very good "rules" and standards for a Forum Debate, with a moderator, etc.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Danny, if you see this --

You are still thinking too literally with regard to the metaphor about the swine. ONCE AGAIN -- I NEVER called anyone in this forum "swine", nor, in what I said in my most recent posting, did I mean to suggest that you would be really calling them swine either. As I understand the meaning of Jesus' use of this figure of speech, it was that trying to teach some things to some people is as useless and wasteful as it would be to throw precious gems to the hogs -- and NOT that those people themselves should be considered as no better than pigs. If you have a different interpretation of what Jesus meant by the figure of speech, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, but you have no right to continue misinterpreting my meaning after I have explained it several times.

Meanwhile, the frustrations you expressed in both of these recent threads that you started sound remarkably like a part of what I was feeling when I quit the other thread. Perhaps next time you will not be so self-righteous when someone else gets frustrated and decides they have better things to do with their time.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

To all-

I would like to offer the entire context of the comments Jay Wilson made in his book "New Creation". And I urge all to take notice of the word that is used in this material is "Perfection" also "mature" or "complete" never in any of Jay's material do I see this false definition "sinless perfection" , attaching a negative slant is to give it a sour taste before people even give it a serious look. Yes I personally know that we can be complete, mature, or perfect as Christ was in His earthly body. I do not have a problem with the term complete, or mature or perfection because God chose those terms to be placed in His word. I do have a problem with a term that is not in the bible like "sinless perfection." Calling this teaching " sinless perfection" sounds to me like the beginning of a weasel worded explanation! Lets call bible things by bible names. Since Jay has NEVER to my knowledge called this teaching " sinless perfection" but he has used " perfect, complete, mature." So then try to refrain from you presupposition and call it what the bible and he is calling it. And as is probably evident, this argument does not rely on Matt 5:48 alone but a plethora of scriptures from a multiple of perspectives. The New Potential

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus told His followers: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

Various weasel-worded explanations have been given in trying to blunt the thrust of Jesus statement. Some speak of "perfect love" (as if perfect love without perfect behavior were possible) as what Jesus desires. But Jesus is very clear - we are to be perfect (complete, mature) as our heavenly Father is perfect (complete, mature). We are to be like our heavenly Father in every respect.

The same thought is emphasized in the epistles. Paul speaks of our predetermined purpose as becoming "conformed to the image of His Son" (Romans 8:29). "Be imitators of me," he wrote, "just as I also am of Christ" (I Corinthians 11:1). Peter drives the point home in these words: "For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth" (I Peter 2:21,22). We as Christians are to become conformed to the image of Christ, to be imitators of Christ, and to follow in His steps. In simple terms, we as Christians are to be like Christ.

But is this possible? Has God set for us a task that is impossible to complete? Has He set for us a goal that is impossible to achieve? Has He laid upon us a yoke which neither we nor our fathers could bear?

The answer to these questions, as we shall see, is "No!" God has opened the doorway of perfection to us. But the process of becoming like Christ is much like the process of picture taking. The picture of perfection must be "snapped" - it must be implanted in the film of the brain. Then it must be "developed" - the fleeting snapshot must be developed into a permanent picture. And the picture must be kept constantly in front of us, or it is soon forgotten.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000