Just a note to say "good bye" as far as the forum is concerned. Duane....thanks for everything.

My time is better spent making a difference in the places God has blessed me with to do this.

A forum doesn't work....if people don't respond.

-- Anonymous, April 30, 2000

Answers

Danny,

I would encourage you to take a much needed break under the juniper tree...

You indeed stood relatively alone in the "complete" thread against the 450 prophets of Baal...

Consider though, for a moment, my perspective...

On Saturday, after a youth car wash, a Babe Ruth baseball game, (coaching) and numerous other pre-Sunday activities, I sat down at the computer, exhausted, to find a VERY active thread...

It was brought to my attention by one of the members of my congregation...

I just finished reading it, (one full hour) and have yet to go to the two suggested links... but that's ok. This Forum isn't going anywhere, and it will remain for posterity to sift through all of the valuable arguments...

In other words, slow down folks! When I see a thread with 20-30 posts all in one day, I think... "gee, what is their rush?" I mean, some of this is moving so fast, it's almost like a chat room, with immediate answers... By the time I can compose something intelligent, the thread has lost momentum, and some new topic comes along... I can't just whip up brilliant answers like some of you...

I concur with one poster who said "Danny, I would jump in here, but you are doing quite well..." (or something like that)

Three to one is definitely not fair, Danny. They needed 10 more! Ha!

But we don't measure truth by counting heads, now, do we?

In all seriousness, Danny, please don't underestimate your value to myself and countless others who "lurk" here in the shadows... I say this also to Matt and Mike...

We are reading your arguments left and right, and appreciate those who take the time to post in this Forum... It is time- consuming, and not for the faint hearted...and it is tackled by those of you who have the BIG picture of our movement at large, and are not local-centric boobs like me who get too consumed with just our own congregational issues...

These things do matter.

Take a break. I will copy this and email it to you personally, and also a CC to Lee Saffold... His break is over... we need him back...

I will also try to post more during your (?) vacation... to somehow take up the slack, and stand in the gap.

But don't start picking up your marbles just yet...

We need you! I for one, like your sarcasm, and can separate it (when necessary) from your logic...

When others complain of it, it is usually because their fallacies have been exposed by that very sarcasm, so they feign a spiritual high ground in self defense. Sarcasm is useful in cutting through to the bone and exposing error.

As for the "perfection" discussion...

Should we strive for sinlessness? Yes.

Can we strive for sinlessness? Yes.

Can we achieve sinlessness? Doubtful. VERY doubtful.

Why? First of all, we live in a sinful world, a world tainted by sin.

I will post more, after considering the two links recommended.

I find Danny's question, "What then, about the need for grace?" still valid, and still not answered to satisfaction.

The answer that "grace" is referring to "other" things besides forgiveness, I find is unacceptable.

The primary understanding of God's continued grace is that of His continuing forgiveness of our sin.

Dr Marion Henderson's illustration of falling down in the mud is appropo: When you get up and dust yourself off, and vow not to fall again, God's grace covers you...

When you sit there and make mud pies, that's presumption upon his grace... or willful sin.

The "in-between" situations, or grey areas, well, only God knows our hearts, even better than we do, so it behooves us to "keep on keeping on" and strive for perfection.

But we will never "get there" this side of Jordan, as Danny phrases it, simply because sin is more than just "doing wrong", sin of commission, but it is also "not doing right", or sin of omission... and another kind of sin, "not doing what is best.

You pray for an hour. There are still plenty of things to pray about, but you watch a TV show and go to bed. You admit later that you probably should have used that tv hour more wisely....

but it was relaxing, and ... yadda yadda yadda...

The next time you pray, you ask God to forgive you for some of the "specific" sins of commission that you definitely know about, and also for those "gray" areas where you know you could have done better...

The key is... God's grace covers those "gray" areas...

And the more "sanctified" you become, the more aware you become of areas where you could do even better... The more you contemplate the holiness of God, the more you can say, like Isaiah, "I am a man of unclean lips"

I think of Bible college professors whom I esteemed so highly and considered to be such Godly men that I had a hard time believing they even used the bathroom.

And though I knew they were "closer" to God than I was, (and still are!), I am sure their own inner stuggles with temptation, though perhaps different from mine, were still very real.

-- Anonymous, April 30, 2000

Are you perhaps starting to get the feeling -- dare I say it? -- that you have been "casting your pearls before swine"?

-- Anonymous, April 30, 2000

No.

Here is why:

For every herd of swine lurking out there in cyberspace, there may be one lost sheep with a Berean spirit who is reading these posts and examining the Scriptures...

There are also sheep in the fold (like me!) who have relied too much on conclusions drawn by others, and this Forum presents opportunities for them to do the "hard work" of fleshing out the truth.

Many of them are emailing me privately, and thanking ALL of you in The Forum (who post) for helping them "re-think" their faith...

I don't mind losing a couple of pearls to a pig now and then.

There's plenty more pearls left to cast.

And most of them get thrown to grateful sheep.

-- Anonymous, April 30, 2000

First, Duane, my earlier response was to Danny's original "question", and NOT to your response to him. In what you wrote next, it's not quite clear if you realised that. I'm not sure what happened. At the time I wrote my response, there was only the original message from Danny. After I submitted it and went back to see if it had posted all right, there was yours in between. I suspect we must have submitted our responses ALMOST simultaneously.

Second, I didn't ask if he WAS casting his pearls before swine -- only if his reason for quitting the forum was that he FELT as though he was.

Third, it was written partially "tongue in cheek" because of his responses when I "quit" one thread earlier where I felt I was getting more and more bogged down in answering petty criticism that had nothing to do with the real theme of the discussion. He accused me of being a poor sport who wanted to "pick up his marbles" and leave just because people didn't agree with me; and he accused me of calling him and his wife "swine". I thought he might understand better what I meant now that he seems to be feeling the same way.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

See there?

This Forum does move quickly! Before you can even post, another post is there....

:)

OK....

And I do empathize with both you and Danny...

Sometimes it seems futile...

But I can tell you...

This Forum has as many as 100 different readers on some days...

Most visitors to this Forum visit once a week!

I don't know why more do not post....

Some are new internet users who are still afraid to publish anything online with their name or email address attached to it..

Others simply view Forum Visits as a spectator sport, and enjoy the reading and reflection material available...

And that's ok.

But those of you who post need to know that you are appreciated, and that your arguments will stand or fall by the test of time and Scripture.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Danny,

I do indeed enjoy reading your input on the various discussions and would encourage you to continue on.... I would also, however, concur with Duane in encouraging everyone to 'slow down' a bit. I can empathize with you... I have been 'coordinating' a daily Christian Mailing List (people email me, I put them together in one email, and send to all) for over a year now. We have covered some tough topics and I have been called judgemental, quarrelsome, etc.... BUT, some people have been blessed and many people have learned things about the scripture they didn't know. We all must contend against False Teaching... especially those of us blessed enough to be able to.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Danny; The only reason I have not participated in that particular thread is because I have been carefully examining both sides. I feel as many do that the CC/CoC have utterly lacked any sort of teaching on the process of Sanctification (it has been woefully lacking in teaching in general imho), resulting in myriads of pew-sitters ... to which this seems to be a reaction. I am not utterly convinced that the differences between you and the others in that thread are as great as either side makes them out to be; it seems to me that you agree on much, and that it is largely a matter of semantics. At any rate, I don't get the idea that they are teaching the same thing as the Wesleyan/Holiness crowd are, which I originally supposed. I will continue to read and may even occasionally comment, if the Spirit moves me. Keep fighting the good fight, Danny!

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Duane,

Just thought I would give you some info. You stated that you find it "unacceptable" that grace refers to other things besides forgiveness.

So, I looked up every time the word charis appears in Acts-Rev. and I categorized them into four boxes: 1)forgiveness only, 2)holiness- i included anything dealing with the conduct of the Christian, 3) inclusive- dealing with the broad category of salvation which included much more than only forgiveness of sins, or when bothe conduct and forgiveness are mentioned, and 4) other- dealing with grace given for strength to perform ministries, miracles and other things.

I will never cease needing the grace of God, properly understood. Will I need forgiveness in the future? If the odds mean anything, yes, probably I will. Is it deternined-no. I determine it. If I choose to sin, I will need it. If I choose not to sin, I will not need it. Simple as that.

Matt. Results out of 115 times Charis is used: forgiveness only: 10 holiness:19 inclusive: 19 other:67

Now, you might disagree with my findings and that is fine...however the point is abuntantly clear, grace means much more than just forgiveness of sins.

I would also be careful about calling people prophets of baal or swine. I am a Christian, born again by the water and the Spirit. I am an evangelist in the church of Christ. I graduated from the same Bible college you did. Not that those things mean anything as far as pomp or pride, just letting you where I stand. Before you start passing eternal judgments, better know the people. This forum is not the whole picture of me. This is one (incredibly significant I will admit) part of me. You cannot get the best puicture of someone from a debate forum only. The only reason I say this is so that you can be careful about making hasty judgments.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Matt...

Thanks for the info on uses of grace.

I am entering into a study of this myself. It will be helpful. I am also reading newcreationstudies.org and comparing it to God's Word. I agree with those who say that we have a lot of pew warmers who are not striving to be holier.

"Swine" is used figuratively, and I did not use it originally... it was in response to Benjamin Rees' use of it. But even so, in the allegorical sense, It just means someone who already has their mind made up, thus making discussion futile, and it was obvious this was how Danny felt.

Likewise, if you are trying to convince ME that it is possible and even relatively easy to live a perfectly sinless life, you would be casting your pearls before swine, and I would be the swine--I would use the word on myself in such a case, and would not whine if someone called me a swine. In a figurative sense, of course. :)

As to the prophets of Baal: It was the extension of an analogy. I envisioned Danny, tired and frustrated from his valiant defense of what he (and I) believes to be the truth, much like Elijah. So, I suggested he take a break under the juniper tree.

Elijah's opponents were, of course, the 450 prophets of Baal, and so it was obviously an extension of that analogy.

Be careful that you don't take this too personally, lest a touch of anger arise in you, and you (perish the thought!) sin.

Let me respond now line for line to your last paragraph.

I would also be careful about calling people prophets of baal or swine.

If the hoof fits, wear it. If it doesn't, don't worry about it.

I am a Christian, born again by the water and the Spirit.

This is no guarantee against doctrinal error.

I am an evangelist in the church of Christ.

Neither is this.

I graduated from the same Bible college you did.

Glad you mentioned that. Can you name one professor from Florida Christian College that would agree with the conclusions you have arrived at?

(Qualifier: Now I am not sure myself what those conclusions are, as I have not completed my review of the "newcreations.org" website, which I am assuming is representative of your position. If it is not, please let me know.)

Not that those things mean anything as far as pomp or pride, just letting you where I stand.

You mean you stand with the historical CoC position? Or the majority of CC evangelists' position? Or your alma mater? Where do you stand?

Before you start passing eternal judgments...

Name-calling and eternal condemnation are not the same thing. Quit being such a sissy. Nobody's condemning you to Hell. Only God can do that.

better know the people.

Wait a minute. You mean it is ok to "pass eternal judgements" as long as I "know the people?"

This forum is not the whole picture of me.

but then you say...

This is one (incredibly significant I will admit) part of me.

You cannot get the best picture of someone from a debate forum only.

You are taking this way too personally.

The only reason I say this is so that you can be careful about making hasty judgments.

Let's be honest, oh sinless one. You did not "say all that" because of your deep concern for my soul, and so that I would not make hasty judgements.

You said it to defend yourself. And that's ok. You did well. It was a good defense. Nice shot. You made some good points. And yes, my "tone" was rather snotty. I confess.

So let's get off of this touchy feely "quit hurting my feeelings" nonsense and get on with the real issues at hand:

What is sanctification?

What is the Holy Spirit's role in sanctification?

Is sanctification sinlessness?

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Ouch! I just got new glasses, please don't torture me! 8-)

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Duane,

I appreciate your respone. I am not going to answer these questions again. I already answered them very clearly in the other thread. Besides, you already said you were the swine this time, so why should I cast the pearls before you?

Duane, You could not hurt my feeling no matter how hard you tried. I have been through too much in the church to be thin-skinned. What I am concerned about is the apparant lack of edifying speech on this forum, especially by you. You are an example to many people and they will take that example and imitate it. Do you want them to go around calling people sissies? Or would you rather try to be gentle and work with someone and strive to help them change with kind words? Paul tells us to let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth,but only such a word is as good for edification. My question is, does calling me a sissy fall into that category? Is there any better way you could have said that or did you just want to call someone a name? I just am sorrowful that you post something like that for so many people to see: you calling a brother in Christ names. I don't read anything like that in Scripture.

By the way, I never said I was a sinless one, so please call this accurately.

No I do not know any profs at FCC that would agree because i have not talked to any of them.

You confessed that your tone was snotty before...did it change? Actually you became even more snotty in the last post.

One question, do you treat all people like you treat me? Do you call them names? I simply asked you to refrain from the attitude, because we will get no where like that,and you step it up a notch. You could easily provoke someone to anger who is easily provoked(which I am not). Is that your goal?

You are an older man...older than I am...would you suggest I follow your example in dealing with those who I do not agree with? Especailly another brother? Just a question.

You stated that I said all these things to defend myself not because I care about your soul. You also stated that i feigned holiness to cover up fallicies that were shown to me using sarcasm. Duane, you do not even know me...you have never met me...yet you seem to know so much about me. Did God reveal this to you? I seriously doubt it because this is not true. The only reason I am writing this is because i care for your soul. You probably think that is fake, yet that is the whole point. You do not know me. I am sincere.

So, since you have me figured out so well, and you can judge my heart and motives, I guess there is no use to say anything more. Wow, and I thought only God could judge my heart.

One of the keys to humility is being able to admit when you are wrong. I admit I probably didn;t handle everything properly in the last thread. I allowed, at times, my strong emotions to control my mind. So you see, I have not reached the level so many claim I believe I can reach (BTW I do not believe in any such level).

Well, this ends my post. My arguments mean nothing...only the Scripture matters. The gospel is not only the forgiveness of sins...as important as that is...it also entails much more.

In Christ,

Matt.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Brother Danny:

I have been absent from the forum for a while primarily because I have moved to Atlanta, Georgia from Birmingham, Alabama and shortly thereafter we brought my mother in law over from China to stay with us. So I have been busy settling into a new job in the telecommunication business in this vast metropolis. But I have checked into the forum with a strong urge to respond but little time to form what I would consider a decent one so I just waited. As Deuane has said my "vacation is over". Ha!

Nevertheless I must tell you that I was shocked to find that my brother in Christ and fellow soldier in the battle for the truth is leaving the forum. I know that you may have some things that you must do as I have for the past three weeks but I sincerely hope that it is not your intent to leave permanently. Your love for the truth and the excellent way in which you stand firm for it against what many would mistakenly consider insurmontable odds is a beautiful example of how Christians should be willing to "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3) and I must state that I know of no one in this forum who has contended more earnestly than you have for the truth of the gospel and we would all suffer a tragic loss should you decide to stay away from this forum permanently.

If you wish to return and join the battle against those who are convinced, contrary to the teaching of the Apostle John, that they "have no sins" I will join that battle with you and we will fight until the enemy is sick and tired of their foolish and stiffed necked resistance to the Holy Spirit and His teaching found in His inspired word. For we are told by John, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, "if we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus His son cleanseth us of all sin. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN US. If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. IF WE SAY WE HAVE NOT SINNED WE MAKE HIM A LIAR, AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US. My little children these things write I unto you that you may not sin but if any man sin we have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself to walk even as He walked." 1 John 1:6-2:6. Now this verse, which is written to Christians by the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John is sufficent to settle the issue of whether Christians sin and what can be done if they do sin. It is also suficient to establish that we are to walk as Jesus walked and when we stumble we are to confess that we have sinned and he will forgive us. But notice that John said that anyone who says that he has no sins in a LAIR. Now the apostle, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, has called those ,who are teaching that Christians are without sin, LAIRS and that my beloved brother is exactly what they are and you know that I could care less if they whine about being called what they in fact truly are. They are liars. I admire the way in which you have resisted these liars and hope that you will enjoy a well deservered rest and return as soon as possible and join the battle again. I would surely miss standing shoulder to shoulder with a faithful man of God in the defense of the gospel of Christ and the truth delivered once for all to the saints by the Holy Spirit.

I sincerely hope that you will have the opportunity to read my request for you know that I mean every word. There is no doubt that you were standing firm against the false teachers, who are in fact exactly like the "prophets of Baal" in their character as demonstrated by their opposition to the plain truth of God. For anyone who says that we have no sins is in fact a LIAR for the Holy Spirit through the Apostle John has said so and that, Brother, makes it the truth.

Please contact me via e-mail and tell me how to reach you by phone and I will call you and we can talk about this for a while.

I truly love you brother for your great love of the truth and I pray that our Lord will give you some rest and strenthen you with even greater determination to continue the great work you have been doing in this forum. Now, I am almost certian that you are most likely the only Christian Church preacher that has had a memeber of the Church of Christ that does not use instruments of music in the worship urge him to continue his defense of the truth. I can tell you that I know that such is rare in my neighborhood! Ha!

I say all of this with the highest respect and deep love for you Brother Danny. You are the only Christian Church preacher that has ever invited me to worship with him with the promise that he would arrange for the instrument to be silent so that I could in good conscience worship God with him. This was a demonstration of the fact that you are genuinely consistant in your belief that it is a matter of christian "liberty" and therefore you have the liberty to silence it for the sake of a brother that you consider to be "weak" and to avoid violating his conscience just so that you can exersize your liberty. This was admirable indeed and had a profound effect upon me. You made this statement to me in the forum knowing that you could have been severely critisized by your brethren. But with your characteristic courage you spoke the truth and stood firm for it. You have also been a great influence in allowing one with my views concerning that matter to obtain a fair hearing and on several occasions provided wise insight to help us proceed to discuss matters in a reasonable fashion that is fair to all.

I have never seen you make useless arguments or deliberate misrepresentations of anyone. Though you have at times been sarcastic, it was often called for by the rediculous nature of your opponent's statements. I have also seen you use sarcasm to great effect as a form of comic relief for everyone when it was clear that we were all too tense.

Now, as you know, I have seldom been humorus. It just does not come natural to me. But Nate Graham and you have both been able to show humor when it was impossible for me.

I cannot say enough good things that I know that you have brought to this forum but the most precious one is the proper attitude of love and respect for and determination to defend the truth against all who would pervert the "right ways of the Lord". And I am sure that our Lord will bless you in this work whether you do it in this forum or elsewhere but I just selfishly pray that you will continue to stand for the truth in this forum. There are many here who do not post but read and "lurk" whom I am sure will miss your valued insights and firm convictions. I am convinced that the people are tired of this flemsey waffeling that many so-called preachers do today because they love themseves more than the truth. It is indeed refreshing to see on such as yourself who is not a "reed shake by the wind" or one who is "carried about by every wind of doctrine" or the newest "theological fad" that comes along. Yes, I will miss one such as yourself who is standing firm upon the solid rock of genuine faith in Christ.

I pray that our Lord will bountifully bless you brother and that your family will be in peace and joy always in Christ.

Please say hello to your wife, Jenny. You know that we will miss her very logical and astute observations as well. We will also miss her spirit of deep love for the truth and her firmness in standing by you so faithfully in the preaching of it.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

I would also like to join this battle against those who are convinced, contrary to the teaching of the Apostle John, that they "have no sins".

It would be nice if brothers would stop putting words in our mouths. God forbid (I hope NOT, for your sake) purposely misrepresenting us. Knocking down the "Straw Man" that some have built, calling it "sinless perfection", while, apparently not dealing with the accual issues i.e. scriptures and questions brought up.

Seems that you (E. Lee Saffold) have been reading something other than the previous forums. It angers me to see people who claim the name Christ, and yet have such a tendency to say outright false things about another. If this is an error on your part I hope in the future you are not so fast to speak and slow to hear.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

OK....

I am sorry for my divisive post.

Matt, you are right, it was inflammatory and unnecessary.

Now...

In a paragraph or two, what is the gist of newcreationstudies.org?

That we should strive to be holy?

I agree.

That we should strive to be sinless?

I agree.

Matt wrote:

Will I need forgiveness in the future? If the odds mean anything, yes, probably I will.

I agree.

Is it determined-no. I determine it.

I agree.

If I choose to sin, I will need it. If I choose not to sin, I will not need it.

I agree.

So, Matt and Mike, are you saying:

1. "I can live without sinning."

2. "I can live without sinning, but probably won't"

In 60 words or less....

1. What is it that you think you are "being accused" of saying?

2. What is it that you are really saying?

Thanks

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Danny

I am one of the lurking learners. When I read your post the first thing I thought of was 1st Kng's 19. Have you heard the whisper? Many years ago when I first became a christian I wanted to do so much.It seemed no one would help. So I said,( I'll quit also).Haven't we all been there. Now I realize that if all else quit I must fight on. There is no doubt in my mind that you are in the fight until the end. I have learned and been encouraged by your comments. Now is not the time to quit. I was born and raised in the Wesleyan/Holliness movement. Because a certain RM sunday school teacher didn't quit because of discouragement My wife,daughter,son-in-law,dad,mom,brother,me and those we have won face heaven rather than hell. I still want to see threads on the Lords Supper, Heaven and Hell, CHURCH DISCIPLINE,elders and deacons.It would help if you are involved in those.Hang in there. I find your leaving totally out of charcter for you.

Lee

I have learned and/or been refreshed a bunch by what you have written. I really appreciate your grasp of the word. I found interesting your comment to Danny reference not using the insturments if you visit.There is something you need to learn about cc preachers and elders. Many,if not most,of those I know would extend to you the same courtesy as their guest and brother in Christ. Much has been said in the last few years of bringing unity between the C of C and the CC.I have always doubted that God saw as much division as does man.I think what is needed is simply get to know one another as you and Danny have.

And last but not least. It seems to me that both sides agree that we,(Christians)1.Should not sin. 2.We will. 3. But by the grace of God we can be forgiven. 4. There is no such thing as (sinless perfection).

Faris A Sweet

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Amen, Faris. It seems that the thread "To Matt, Mike, and Chad" is helping bridge the gap finally. One would hope, anyway.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Mike:

You have said:

"I would also like to join this battle against those who are convinced, contrary to the teaching of the Apostle John, that they "have no sins"."

I am happy to hear this and I invite you to join the fight. For you see, those who say that they can in fact live without ever sinning by their own choice would not be able to agree with the apostle John for he stated very clearly that anyone who says that they have done just that is a liar. How could he know that none had ever lived without sin if it were possible that some whom he did not know just might have been doing the very thing that you appear to claim is possible. He knew it because he knew the truth by inspiration of the Holy spirit that we are to strive diligently to live without ever sinning but he also knew that we would fail and therefore he knew that anyone who would ever claim to have lived without sinning was a liar. Any one today that claims they have lived without sin is a liar and therefore anyone who claims that it is possible for one to actully live without ever sinning would also be lying. The plain fact is that according to John none would ever be able to live in such a way as to be able to say that they "had no sins" without being a liar. But you appear to be telling us that they can live in such a way as to one day actually be able to say truthfully that they "have no sins". If that is what you are teaching then you are one of the liars that John is talking about.

Now it has never been my intent to misrepresent you deliberately. It is very possible that I have misunderstood you and I am willing to listen to your explaination. But deliberate misrepresentation is no the case at all. I believe that I understand your words as well and will continue to think so until you make clear to me exactly just what it is that you mean when you claim that one can live without sin. If that is your claim then John's words accurately apply to you as I have stated. If you are simply saying that it is possible for us to chose good over evil I do not think anyone would doubt you. But this does not mean that it is probable that we will always make the correct choice. In fact the scriptures are quite clear in stating that we will not. John's words would have no meaning at all if it were possible and at all practically probable that any man could and therefore would live his entire life after being baptized into Christ without ever sinning. If anyone could have done that the faithful Jew would have done it for few have attempted to live rightously with more diligence than the faithful Jew. It is interesting that you cannot point to a single New Testament example of anyone other than Christ our Lord who claimed truthfully to have lived without sinning ever after their baptism including the apostle John. I can assure you that neither you nor I can say such and we are not likely to ever be able to claim such a thing. So the fact that we can chose good over evil and right from wrong does not in the least imply that we WILL do it. For all of humanity including Christians have proven conclusively that John was right when he said "If any man says he has no sins he is a LIAR and the truth is not in him". This includes you, brother, if you are teaching such a doctrine. If you teach that we can live without sin and therefore some will and some are and some have done just that you are a LIAR according to John who was inspiried by the Holy Spirit. If you are claiming that we can live without sin but the truth is that none have and none are and none in the future ever will then I have misunderstood you completely. For the truth is that we can avoid sin but it is eaqually true that we have not, are not and most likely will not ever live our entire lives completely without sin. For this reason John told us that Christ is our advocate with the father. So tell us truthfully and clearly, Are you saying that any have and some are now and some will in the future live completely without sin because it is possible for us to always chose the good? Do you claim that you are now living completely without sin? Are you an example of what you are preaching? Tell us are you without sin? Do you know anyone who is? Do you know anyone else that even claims to be? Do you expect in the future that you will actually be able to prclaim that you have lived your life without sin since your baptism. If no one has ever done it and no one is likely to do it in the future and no one is doing it now the just because it may be possible it is surely useless in therory for the entire human race has proven that it is no in the least bit probable.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Mike:

I apologize to you. My previous post was intended to respond to Chad's comments to me. I have just come in from work and I am tired! Ha!

Chad:

My previous post is addressed to you. I did not mean to ascripe your comments to Mike. Sorry.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

The answer to your questions are covered in this here it is Sorry about my lack of html proficiency...

Thanks,

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2000

Brother Faris:

I appreciate what you have said as I quote it below:

"There is something you need to learn about cc preachers and elders. Many,if not most,of those I know would extend to you the same courtesy as their guest and brother in Christ. Much has been said in the last few years of bringing unity between the C of C and the CC.I have always doubted that God saw as much division as does man.I think what is needed is simply get to know one another as you and Danny have."

It seems that you are very much on track about this matter. There is no good reason why we should not spend some time getting to know, understand, love and respect one another and then radually begin to discuss our differences and find ways in which we can fellowship each other and work together while we work diligently to resolve these "issues" that divide us from each other. One good way to do that would be to lay asside anything that is thought to be "expedient" but has been found to be divisive. If it is is divisive, it may be expedient in the minds of some, but I cannot see how anything that divids us could truely be expedient for us to practice. Maybe by laying those aside as far as what we practice while we discuss them among ourselves until we agree and practice only those things that we have a clear "thus saith the Lord" for doing we will be able to fellowship one another even while we disagree over some matters and it is possible that one day these things that have divided us my be seen in their true light as being nothing more than the opinions of men which in most cases are the things that produce division. If we could only do that we might very well be an example of "stiving to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace".

I appreciate the words you have said about the Christian Church preachers and the elders and I do very much believe you when you say that they would easily extend the same kindness and respect to me if I visited to worship with them that Danny and his faithful wife so graciously extended to me. Maybe we should try it on a larger scale and some beautiful and harmonious and spritually edifying things could happen. The only one I know that would not support such an endeavor is satan for he cannot bear to see us contemplating harmony and unity in Christ our Lord!

Your comments are among the most significant that I have seen in this forum lately and I truly hope that your words will catch on with others and we can take action in this matter.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

See Danny. It is a good thing you took the advice and hung out. ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2001

When Lee says that the things that divide us (such as instruments) might be "nothing more than the opinions of men", there is hope yet for us all. ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

Brother John:

You have said:

“When Lee says that the things that divide us (such as instruments) might be "nothing more than the opinions of men", there is hope yet for us all. ;-)”

Brother John:

I do not think that I have said anything that would indicate that our objection to instruments of music in the worship might be nothing more than the opinions of men. I believe that it is my good Brethren in the Christian Church who hold that it is a division over nothing more than our opinions. I do not consider the use of instruments merely a matter of Christian liberty or a simply matter of expediency. I am persuaded that its use is a violation of the will of God in that it is a substitution for the teaching of the word of God concerning singing and making music in our hearts to the Lord. (Eph. 5:19).

In my words above in this thread I was talking about the good way in which my brother Danny and Brother Faris were willing to forgo what THEY believe to be their “LIBERTY IN CHRIST” and what THEY consider to be a matter of expediency. So that they can allow those of us who reject instruments in the worship as a sinful practice to fellowship with them and to join harmoniously in fellowship and worship together. And that we might labor jointly in the spread of the gospel of Christ and the defense of the faith once delivered to the saints. I thought that this was evidence that they genuinely believe that it is an expedient since they are willing to sacrifice any expedient for the sake of the more important issue of unity, harmony, and fellowship essential to the furtherance of the great gospel of Christ.

Now, I am sure that you must have misunderstood something that I said. Though I cannot for the life of me determine just what I said in any place that left you with the impression that “the things that divide us (such as instruments) might be nothing more than the opinions of men”. If I ever said anything that even remotely sounded like that I would take the first opportunity to renounce it. For I have never believed any such thing. I do believe that the opinions of men are what divide us, and not that only, but the elevation of those opinions of men to the level of God’s word. But the use of instruments in the worship is, in my view, an opinion of men that divides us but I do not believe that the use of vocal music accompanied by the music of the human heart is an opinion of men. Rather it is the command of God and cannot be ignored or added to. (Col. 3:16; Eph. 5:19). But your suggestion here that I believe that the use of the instrument in the worship is an opinion of men is true but your suggestion from it is a misrepresentation. It is my view that it has no authority from the word of God. And thus it is an opinion of some men that it would be nice to have it but to introduce it into the worship without scriptural authority is sinful and a usurpation of God’s rule over the church. You suggestion that I held the same view that you hold that it is a mere expedient which justifies it as an acceptable liberty that God grants us to do or not do as we please is a terrible misrepresentation of my position on this matter. I do not hold that position at all and everyone in this forum knows that to be the case. So please do not just come into a thread that is almost a year old and attempt to make it appear that I support the notion that instruments of music in the worship is in some way nothing more than a harmless expedient for I hold no such position.

Now, I respect all of my brethren who differ with me about the subject and do not insist that they change they thinking about it at all. I only asked that we not do that which they consider to be expedient, and demand that the entire congregation practice it or find somewhere else to be. To do thus would be to force those of us who hold it to be a sin to chose between violating our consciences and worshipping with you or leave and worship in a place of our own. And the reason that I was happy about Brother Danny and Brother Faris was that they were willing to forego what was their strongly held opinion that they had the liberty to do. Just so that they could fellowship with a brother in Christ whom they knew could not in good conscience join with them in doing that which they felt they were at liberty to do. This showed wisdom and an understanding of Romans 14. For if I held that something was a liberty for me to practice or not practice as I chose I would not insist that it be done in the church. And this I would do so long as there was one single brother in the church that could not in good conscience join in on that practice. For what is not of faith is sin. And if a brother could not by faith join in then he would, if he submitted to the practice, sin against God. We have no liberty to force anyone to sin in this way. Now, I am convinced that instrumental music in the worship is sinful and your effort here to leave the opposite impression is not just, Brother John. All I can think is that you surely have misunderstood something that I have said. For I find it hard to believe that you would deliberately misrepresent me.

Now, It is not my intent to go into this matter in great detail. I am seeking only to correct a misrepresentation. I have never said what you have attributed to me.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001

*sigh* I feel like a stand-up comic in a room full of Vulcans.

-- Anonymous, May 02, 2001