Worship....

When do the scriptures say we are to worship? Is Sunday morning a authorized worship time? If so, where is the scripture? Does the scriptures say that the Lord's day is specifically for worship? How about Sunday evening? Is this worship time, define with strick adherence to the scriptures. What about Wednesday? Is this an "authorized worship time?" Please answer with scripture, nothing else matters! Are the "five channels of worship" defined as worship in the scriptures?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Answers

First, what are the "five channels of worship"?

Second, no, there is no scripturally mandated time or day of "worship". It's not something that can be confined to a day or time or place. Worship takes place (or ought to) continually in the Christian's heart, and in his mind whenever he thinks to.

Now, if the question is actually, "Is there a scripturally mandated day and/or time when the church is supposed to gather for corporate worship?", then the answer is . . . still no. It is clear from the Scriptures that the early church worshipped together at any day and time they desired to gather, or whenever a certain need brought them together for prayer or instruction, and in whatever place they found themselves. A quick scan of the book of Acts shows them together at all manner of times.

A survey of church history shows that the church quickly settled on Sunday as the MOST regular time, often at evening, as the culture had not yet set Sunday aside as the day when just about everybody slowed down. The five-day work week did not yet exist, and Christians often gathered in the evening after the work day.

So, we have examples of meeting on Sunday evening most regularly, meeting on any day that called for a gathering, at any time necessary, and Christians meeting for fellowship on pretty close to a daily basis. But we find no Scriptural mandate for a particular day and/or time to set aside for "worship service."

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

To clear up this question some more, do we worship as an assembly? Do we worship at any time we as Christians gather together? Define the perimeters of worship with scripture.

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

How about John 4:24 "God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth." Is there ever a time the Christian is out of the Spirit? Is there ever a time the true Christian is out of the truth?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Sam

Thank you for your answer. You had said that "Worship takes place (or ought to) continually in the Christian's heart, and in his mind whenever he thinks to." Can you back this up with scripture? You went on to say that "It is clear from the Scriptures that the early church worshipped together at any day and time they desired to gather, or whenever a certain need brought them together for prayer or instruction, and in whatever place they found themselves." This, if I understand you correctly says that when the early church came together whenever they did it was for worship. What scripture shows that whatever time you assemble, it is for worship? Remember all who read please show me the scriptures. Thanks! :-)

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Chadrick- So what you are saying is that if we are in truth and in the Spirit, then worship is 24\7 according to John 4:24 correct?

-- Anonymous, April 27, 2000

Mike:

I'll get back with more detailed replies this afternoon, but . . .

You went on to say that "It is clear from the Scriptures that the early church worshipped together at any day and time they desired to gather, or whenever a certain need brought them together for prayer or instruction, and in whatever place they found themselves." This, if I understand you correctly says that when the early church came together whenever they did it was for worship. What scripture shows that whatever time you assemble, it is for worship?

What I said and what you said are not the same thing. Look at it again. I did NOT say that the only reason they got together was for worship. They gathered for a number of purposes, but somewhere during those times, worship apparently often happened, even if it wasn't the original emphasis of gathering.

This is a difficult thing to nail down solidly, because of the nature of worship and the different things that make up what worship is. Maybe you need to define what you're looking for more specifically. Worship is not a thing that is clearly defined in scripture -- no verse says anything like, "Here are the things that make up worship and here's how you can tell you are doing it." Worship COULD be defined as "Submitting to the sovereign rule and compassionate care of God and expressing or acknowledging His sovereignty and your submission." But that may still be too limiting. Anything that we do to express His rule, or His love, or His care, or any of a number of other aspects of God, may be termed "worshipping".

For instance, prayer is certainly an aspect of worship. And whenever we find the church gathering, there is often mention of prayer together. So if they prayed, even a single prayer among themselves, worship happened. If they sought God's guidance or wisdom, that submission to God's rule was an act of worship, so that when the Bible says, "They prayed", it shows them engaging in one aspect of worship, without also having to say the words "and they worshipped."

You may be try to too tightly define or delineate something that is not so specifically mandated, but that is rather shown in action in a number of different ways.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

Yes Mike, 24/7

Sam - get out your greek/hebrew and look up the words for worship and service. You will find in the Old Tesament some exact verses defining what worship is.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

Sam-

I asked those particular questions to understand what it was you were saying, not at all intending to quote you out of context. As I understand worship, it is never specifically when we as Saints gather to pray, but the only New Testament teaching on worship comes out of John 4:21-24. If you are in truth and IF you are in the spirit then worship for the Christian is ALWAYS 24/7. As Jesus said it is not in a physical location( neither in the mountain nor in Jerasalem shall you worship the Father) that we are going to worship, but we are to worship in spirit and truth, a spiritual prostration before the Father, to think otherwise has lead to people compartmentalizing a secular/ worship mind set. This would make using instruments/or not in "worhip" a moot point because worship stems from the spiritual not the physical.And as Chadrick pointed doing a word study on this will point this out quite clearly. Study "service" and "worship" and you will see what I am talking about. According to the bible all external "acts" are service.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

Are we discussing private or corporate worship here?

Personally I believe it should be on Sunday morning, and must be concluded before the kickoff of any scheduled football games, and before noon at any rate or else the roast will burn.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

John, that's the question I was trying to get answered.

Chad, I have already done the word studies on worship. Using the ASV, the word "worship" occurs in the Old Testament 117 times by my count, and in NOT ONE of those verses does God say ANYthing like, "Here's what worship is and here's how to tell that you're doing it." It is NOT, in my study, something that is explicitly defined. If you disagree, show me the passages.

If you are talking about "service" to God, that's another discussion. The two ideas are related, very closely, but they are not the same thing. And the original question from Mike was about worship, and implied that he was speaking of the "worship" aspect rather than the "service" aspect, so that's what I've dealt with.

Mike, your words are in italics:

As I understand worship, it is never specifically when we as Saints gather to pray,

It is not ONLY when we pray -- there are other acts that are considered worship in the scriptures -- , but praying IS an act of worship.

the only New Testament teaching on worship comes out of John 4:21- 24.

To use a word from the original languages, Baah-Lownee. This statement is true only if you do not consider corporate worship gatherings to be "worship". First, Paul spends a good bit of time dealing with the corporate worship gathering, in more than one of his letters. Second, instruction comes not only from direct teaching, but also from example. We learn from the actions of Jesus, the apostles and the early church.

If you are in truth and IF you are in the spirit then worship for the Christian is ALWAYS 24/7.

To a certain extent, this is true. But to hold to this idea absolutely, you must accept the idea that Christians never sin. Certainly, at the moment of either a sin of commission or of ommision, the Christian is not worshipping. But as a general rule, you're right about this. And no one here would argue, I think.

As Jesus said it is not in a physical location( neither in the mountain nor in Jerasalem shall you worship the Father) that we are going to worship, but we are to worship in spirit and truth, a spiritual prostration before the Father, to think otherwise has lead to people compartmentalizing a secular/ worship mind set. This would make using instruments/or not in "worship" a moot point because worship stems from the spiritual not the physical.And as Chadrick pointed doing a word study on this will point this out quite clearly. Study "service" and "worship" and you will see what I am talking about. According to the bible all external "acts" are service.

Once again, baloney. As I said, I have done the word study on "worship". The word is used 78 times, by my count, in the New Testament (using the ASV). In 61 of those references, the idea of worship is referred to with no description of what it is -- it simply gives the narrative that someone "worshipped", or it gives the command that God's people are to "worship", but it doesn't say how. It sometimes says WHERE it was happening -- at Jesus' feet, in the temple, etc.

In the other 17 references, the scripture describes at least part of what people are doing when they "worship". They describe people "worshipping" or being told to worship by bowing down, falling down, making requests, fasting, praying, declaring the truth of God, affirming the truth of God, giving thanks to God, and speaking praise about and to God.

If you'd like, here's a list of those verses: Matthew 2:11; 4:9; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9; Mark 15:19; Luke 2:37; Acts 10:25; 1 Corinthians 14:25; Revelation 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:4; and 19:10.

Now, note this . . . in all but 1 of these verses, the Greek word used is a form of the word "proskuneo", which, as I'm sure you know, is almost literally defined as "laying prostrate before one in reverence", and is translated, "worship". The one that is different is the Luke passage, speaking of Anna the prophetess in the temple, who "served" God by fasting and supplications. The word there is "latreyo", translated "to serve".

So, clearly, all external acts are NOT called "service". There are thigns that we do in both private and corporate worship that are clearly labelled "worship" by the scriptures.

Note this also -- I am NOT saying that worship only happens in corporate gathering. It happens in corporate gathering, in small group gathering, in private quietness. It happens in the mind, through the emotions, and within and by physical acts. It happens when we choose to make it happen, and it happens even when we aren't paying attention, if our minds are set toward God, because we will live a life of service and devotion, and He is given honor and worship in the acts of service we do.

Perhaps I have simply misunderstood you both, but it seems at this point that you intend to limit what worship is and isn't, and I think you're trying to draw a line that the Scriptures just don't draw. If I'm wrong about your intentions, I apologize, and await correction.

One more thing. I'll repeat this bit of your post again:

According to the bible all external "acts" are service.

As you are fond of saying, show me the scripture. And when you do, be sure and show how those I've listed above are wrong.

-- Anonymous, April 28, 2000

Sam, thank you for the answer on Worship, you sound as though you been around a while. I will now try to answer you I might not cover everything just let me know what I have missed. And anything you need cleared up let me know. (I have already done the word studies on worship. Using the ASV, the word "worship" occurs in the Old Testament 117 times by my count,) First you said, you did a word study and you used the ASV. I am not a veteran like you , but it seems to me that it doesnt really matter what the translation might contain, but really what the original language has. The translation may contain the many presuppositions of the translators. I am not sure but I believe Chad may have been talking about the original language. I now that even the NASV has used  proskuneo in two places off the top of my head that DO NOT APPEAR in the original, 1. Romans 12:1  proskuneo is not in the original and for some reason the NASV translators chose not to indicate this by italicizing it. Another one in the NASV is Hebrews 9:1 the correct word is  service again no proskuneo in this verse in the original but ( latrea). Once again Hebrews 9:9 in the NASV says worshipperagain in the original is  server (latruo) So going by a particular version is dangerous. As I have glanced at the ASV for its accuracy concerning  worship I noticed a relatively accurate version in the area of worhip and service. The decrepancy I have found is the ASV translators use worship in the place of  Sebo Which is NOT proskuneo but Sebo in the original and this means : reverence, fear or respect, NOT to prostrate, or do reverence to, fall down and worship. So I like the original, now I might have misunderstood you so forgive me for all this clarification if not necessary.

Next I said in a former post that  as I understand worship, it is never specifically when we as Saints gather to pray. In which you answered  It is not ONLY when we pray- there are other acts that are considered worship in the scriptures-, but praying IS an act of worship. Now for this you offer NO SCRIPTURE so I will ignore this contention unless this is given a reference in the good book. As you already said further down in your answer to me As you are fond of saying, show me the scripture. It sounded as though this is a bad thing? I say that according to the bible that we worship 24\7 because I am always in truth and always in the Spirit( John 4:24)

Then you say First, Paul spends a good bit of time dealing with the corporate worship gathering, in more than one of his letters  Again I am not sure where it is you are referring, you did not provide the references, and this definition  corporate worship if this idea of corporate worship is not in the bible anywhere, what is it? . Never do we see that bible saying that we assemble to worship in a corporate setting.

Then next you say To a certain extent, this is true. But to hold to this idea absolutely, you must accept the idea that Christians never sin. Certainly, at the moment of either a sin of commission or of omission, the Christian is not worshipping. But as a general rule, you're right about this. And no one here would argue, I think.

The bible makes it clear and proper worship is clearly defined in John 4:24, I do accept absolutely that a Christian can get to a point that he or she can make the right choice to live without sin BY THE POWER OF GOD WORKING WITHIN ME . But that is a subject of the other thread which I am also in. So if you want to talk about that go to  can a Christian be complete or mature as Christ is complete or mature. This thread is about scriptural worship. And for this sin of commission and sin of omission please give a reference, I have not seen this in the bible nor its concept. I am not saying it is not there, ONLY that I have not seen it. And then shockingly you say I am right about this. But as general rule, you are right about this. How so? Please explain.

You go further to say that It ( the bible I assume) gives the command that Gods people are to  worship, but it doesnt say how. This is Baloney! The bible is clear in John 4:24 true worshippers are to worship the Father in SPIRIT AND TRUTH. This is not a physical location! And once again I quote scripture and you did not. Please answer this question in your next post,  when are we not in Spirit and when are we not in Truth?

Also how do you get praying is worship? Or any of the list you provided? Making requests, fasting, declaring the truth of God, affirming the truth of God ,giving thanks to God, and speaking about and to God. Show any of these to be worship from the scriptures. You did provide scriptures for Christ being worshipped on earth in person before the New Covenant took effect, much different than what we are discussing. And in Revelation all of these where proskuneo is used it is in the spiritual realm, not at all here on earth. And the one you showed to be  to serve is speaking of an external act in Luke 2:37, and the contention that Fasting and prayer is not considered worship is consistent with what I am saying and with this verse. SERVING NIGHT AND DAY WITH FASTINGS AND PRAYER Now the bible calls this time she spent fasting and praying service, why? As for the one I did not mention 1 Cor 14:25 I need to look at this closer.

If anything I am drawing a line where the scriptures draw it, and am willing to reason through this assertion. I as clearly as possible want to draw the line where ever the bible draws it no matter who may oppose it. Just all I ask is to show me the scriptures, that I might change any error.

Thanks for your time. Mike

-- Anonymous, April 29, 2000

John,

"Roast will burn"??? I thought you were younger than that. Since I was 18 and on my own, it has always been get it over in time to the Baptists to xyz (Western Sizzlin, Quincy's, the Dragon Room, etc.)

Mark

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

LOL that too. As for being old, my body is pushing 40, but my mind refuses to believe it is any older than 18. BTW good to see everyone could see my tongue firmly in my cheek on that statement... but it is all too true in some churches, I think.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Hello, Mark.

I believe we have a lot of freedom in Christ in this matter. And we are not to judge each other in matters of Holy Days.

I won't access ALL of the verses, but the following are as good as any: (You asked for just Scripture, instead of opinion).

Romans 12:1-21 [AMPLIFIED]

12: I appeal to you, therefore, brethren, and beg of you in view of [all] the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies -- presenting all your members and faculties -- as a living sacrifice, holy (devoted, consecrated) and well-pleasing to God, which is your reasonable (rational, intelligent) service and spiritual WORSHIP.

2: Do not be conformed to this world -- this age, fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs. But be transformed (changed) by the [entire] renewal of your mind -- by its new ideals and its new attitude -- so that you may prove [FOR YOURSELVES] what is the good, and acceptable and perfect will of God, even the thing which is good and acceptable and perfect [in His sight for you].

3: For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn every one of you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought -- not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance; but to rate his ability with sober judgement, each according to the faith apportioned by God to him.

4: For as in one physical body we have many parts (organs, members) and all of these parts do not have the same function or use,

5: So we, numerous as we are, are one body in Christ, the Messiah, and individually we are parts one of another -- mutually dependent on one another.

6: Having gifts (faculties, talents, qualities) that differ according to the grace given us, let us use them; [He whose gift is] prophecy, [let him prophesy] according to the proportion of his faith;

7: [He whose gift is] practical service, let him give himself to serving; he who teaches, to his teaching;

8: (He who exhorts, encourages) to his exhortation; he who contributes, let him do it in simplicity and liberality; he who gives aid and superintends, with zeal and singleness of mind; he who does acts of mercy, with genuine cheerfulness and joyful eagerness.

9: [Let your] love be sincere -- a real thing; hate what is evil (loathe all unGodliness, turn horror from wickedness), but hold fast to that which is good.

10: Love one another with brotherly affection -- as members of one family -- giving precedence and showing honor to one another.

11: Never lag in zeal and in earnest endeavor; be aglow and burning with the Spirit, serving the Lord.

12: Rejoice and exult in hope; be steadfast and patient in suffering and tribulation; be constant in prayer.

13: Contribute to the needs of God's people -- sharing in the necessities of the saints -- pursuing the practice of hospitality.

14: Bless those who persecute you -- who are cruel in their attitude toward you; bless and do not curse them.

15: [Share others' joy], rejoicing with those who rejoice; and share others' grief], weeping with those who weep.

16: Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty (snobbish, highminded, exclusive) but readily adjust yourself to [people, things] and give yourself to humble tasks. Never overestimate yourself or be wise in your own conceits.

17: Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is honest and proper and noble -- aiming to be above reproach -- in the sight of everyone.

18: If possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with every one.

19: Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for [God's] wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, (requite), says the Lord.

20: But, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.

21: Do not let yourself be overcome by evil, but overcome (master) evil with good.

Lots of 'meat' related to worship and service.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Connie-

I do not know what to say, so I will not say anything other than this.

Mike

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Mike:

I addressed my post to the wrong person, I guess.

This is opinion, so I don't know if it's acceptable; I continually have a feeling of closeness and awe concerning God, ever since i accepted Him as Savior and Lord 42 years ago. It's not something I do; It's something He does. I feel it is in the realm of worship.

Meetings with others at church are times of edification and learning and fellowship; in the Lord's Supper there are elements of worship.

I don't think others can determine for you what worship is (for you). I don't believe that Christ set up any rules for meeting; in fact, in Old Testament times, women only went to the temple about once per year, if I remember my history correctly.

That is why when there was a discussion in am earlier thread about whether it is required to meet on a Sunday or Saturday (or sundown Friday) I was a little puzzled, since nothing is said about it. The Lord's Supper was initiated on a Thursday night. The disciples met on the Lord's Day after the resurrection; Jesus went often to the temple (prsumably on the Sabbath ~ sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).

Worship is something we do in honor of God, continually, in my estimation; other words which describe the same emotions are 'glory', 'praise', 'honor', 'adoration'.

I don't think we can determine that for others. You, as a preacher (I guess) have to determine a time and if others approve of that, they'll come. Our church has 4 services weekly ~ two in our church, one in a huge public high school, (these three are on Sunday, with the pastor shuttling back and forth) and one on Saturday night which is more casual for the college young people. (MSU is in our community and we have a large number of students in attendance and a large number of college personnel in attendance [from professors on down]).

We also have a group of Chinese believers who use the facilities on Friday evening and then come on Sunday as well.

Sorry if I overdid that earlier posting, but it was so good I couldn't stop in the middle; and I think it DID apply to worship.

-- Anonymous, May 01, 2000

Sam Loveall- I have not recieved any E-mail nor a letter on this forum from you backing up with scripture the assertions you made concerning my last reply. That would seem to indicate that 1. You believe my answers are not worth answering,2. You have not had the time,3. You concede that I am correct in this all important issue, 4. Your computer broke, hope not:-) or whatever, this is just a reminder that we were discussing " worship" and, If you are still able, I would not mind discussing this with you a little further. Please scroll up and do a point by point dissecting of ALL that I said so that I can see where it is that I am in error. From tomorrow forward, I am back to work so answering will be slightly slower than before. But I will answer all reasonable questions as I recieve them.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2000

Sorry for the long delay. You asked me to do a word study on prokuneo and latreuo, and I havent done that yet. But Ill be happy to go ahead anyway. Ill quote you from both this post and earlier posts in this forum, and try to answer all I can. If at times I sound harsh or angry, I dont mean to be -- its difficult to get ones vocal inflections to come through on the printed paper.

I think you are trying to make too big a thing out of the issue of worship. You are working hard at limiting something the scriptures dont limit, and you are making definitions where the scripture doesnt make them. For instance, you and Chad both said:

if we are in truth and in the Spirit, then worship is 24\7 according to John 4:24

I would not disagree with that statement. No one here would. What I WILL disagree with is making this the definition of worship, as you seem to be trying to do. Its all very easy and neat to say, Christians worship all the time, 24/7, and it is certainly the goal to shoot for. Ones life, and everything one says and does and thinks should be a reflection of ones devotion to God. But you asked a specific question, and this passage does not answer that question. You asked:

When do the scriptures say we are to worship? Is Sunday morning an authorized worship time?

(By the way, something that kinda irks me is that you came in asking a question to which you had already planned your answer. You appear, or at least you gave an impression of appearing, to have come here with an agenda, looking to correct folks, rather than looking to engage in honest discussion. If you want to come make a point, then come make it. Dont hide behind vagueness and pretended inquiry. We had plenty of that with another guy and his continual hiding of his Kingdom agenda. We love discussion here. But we have little use for pretense.)

The John 4:24 passage does NOT define what worship is. It speaks to our approach to worship, our approach to God, but it does NOT in any way say anything like, This is worship, and this is what it looks like, and this is what it is not, and this is how you know you are doing it. In fact, the Bible doesnt spell it out plainly like that ANYwhere. There is no passage in the Bible that defines worship. There are LOTS of passages that describe what certain people are doing when they are worshipping, and I gave you a list of those. I will be happy to go thru some of them one at a time, so that you dont have to look them up.

Matthew 2:11 -- the magi worshipped Jesus by falling down before him. Matthew 14:33 -- the apostles worshipped Jesus by vocally affirming him to be the Son of God. Matthew 28:9 -- the apostles worshipped Jesus by falling down and clasping his feet; that is, by laying them selves at his feet in submission and love. Mark 15:19 -- the soldiers mockingly worshipped Jesus by falling on their knees before him. Luke 2:37 -- Anna worshipped or served -- the word is latreuo -- by fasting and praying. Acts 10:25 -- Cornelius tried to worship Peter by falling at his feet. 1 Corinthians 14:25 -- the unbeliever will fall on his face and worship God. Revelation 5:14 -- the elders worshipped by falling down before God. Revelation 7:11 -- the angels and the elders and the creatures worshipped by falling down before the throne and speaking the praises of God. Revelation 11:16 -- the elders worshipped by falling before the throne and speaking affirmation of Gods authority and power. Revelation 19:4 -- the elders and the creatures worshipped by falling before the throne and speaking affirmation of Gods truth. Revelation 19:10 -- John attempts to worship the angel by falling before his feet.

As I said, the New Testament does not DEFINE worship, but it often DESCRIBES what is happening when people are worshipping, as these passages show. Furthermore, similar passages describe similar things throughout the Old Testament and calls them worship. Of course, you once before said,

Next I said in a former post that  as I understand worship, it is never specifically when we as Saints gather to pray. In which you answered  It is not ONLY when we pray- there are other acts that are considered worship in the scriptures-, but praying IS an act of worship. Now for this you offer NO SCRIPTURE so I will ignore this contention unless this is given a reference in the good book.

Well, I did offer scripture. The passages in Revelation show the elders and angels and creatures praying in Gods presence, and calls it worship. To argue differently, youll either have to deny that they were worshipping, which the scriptures specifically says they were doing, or youll have to redefine what prayer is.

You also say, Then next you say To a certain extent, this is true. But to hold to this idea absolutely, you must accept the idea that Christians never sin. Certainly, at the moment of either a sin of commission or of omission, the Christian is not worshipping. But as a general rule, you're right about this. And no one here would argue, I think. The bible makes it clear and proper worship is clearly defined in John 4:24, I do accept absolutely that a Christian can get to a point that he or she can make the right choice to live without sin BY THE POWER OF GOD WORKING WITHIN ME

I, too, would agree that, in theory, a Christian can get to the place where he makes the right choice every time and stops sinning, if he learns to completely submit every part of his will to God, and lives 24 hours a day by the power of God on him. The problem here is, I dont know of anyone, other than Jesus, who has done so. And if you pay attention to Jays teaching, you will know that he affirms that Christians can and do continue to sin. Let me give you a quotation from a bit of correspondence I did with him:

Sam Loveall wrote: I've enjoyed them quite a bit. Thanks for putting them up. I want to be sure of one thing. I've had a number of conversations with a man here in Raleigh who believes and teaches that once a person becomes a Christian, then that person DOES NOT sin again. Cannot. Will not. No way, no how. I don't think that you are saying that. I think that you are saying that, with the influence of the Spirit and the motivation of the picture of the risen Christ, the Christian holds the POSSIBILITY of defeating temptation and sin every time, but that it is also possible to fail to heed the Spirit's influence, or to fail to hold to the motivation of the picture of the risen Christ, and therefore sin. Is that, in fact, what you are saying? That we CAN sin, but we NEED NOT, and even when we do, we are restored again thru the work of the Spirit and the blood of Christ to begin again? I appreciate your time. Thank you. Sam Loveall Sam, You understand what I am teaching from the scripture absolutely right! It is exciting to think that we can actually have victory in our lives, but at high cost to the Lord and disciplining ourselves for the purpose of godliness. Jay

Now watch this, Mark. You are asserting that Christians are to worship 24/7. You also assert that Christians can mature to the point that they stop sinning, at which time they would INDEED be worshipping 24/7. And you seem to acknowledge above that Christians are not worshipping when they are sinning. SO, YOU APPEAR TO BE SAYING THAT THE CHRISTIAN CAN ONLY TRULY WORSHIP AFTER HE GETS TO THE POINT THAT HE IS NO LONGER SINNING. If this is in fact NOT what you are saying, please clarify the matter.

Lets see, what else did you say? Oh, here it is: You did provide scriptures for Christ being worshipped on earth in person before the New Covenant took effect, much different than what we are discussing. And in Revelation all of these where proskuneo is used it is in the spiritual realm, not at all here on earth.

You are making assertions for which you yourself have no scriptural backing here. Acts of worship are described throughout the Old Testament, and throughout the New Testament, and in the Revelation, and they are consistent and similar to each other throughout. But you say they dont apply now? When did they change? Show me scripture that says that acts of worship changed for the church age. And remember, John 4 DOESNT do it. The biblical humans believed they were worshipping, the angels believed they and the humans were worshipping, and Jesus believed they were worshipping. Show me where the scripture says it changes.

for this sin of commission and sin of omission please give a reference, I have not seen this in the bible nor its concept. I am not saying it is not there, ONLY that I have not seen it.

The phrase sin of commission is not foind in the Bible, as far as I know, but the idea certainly is. A sin of commission is simply a sin one actively commits. In other words, when you do what is sinful, you are sinning by commission; you are committing sin. It seems so obvious that one might wonder why the phrase came into being at all. It came into use as an opposite of the phrase sin of ommission -- once again, not a phrase found in the Bible, but certainly an idea found there. I refer you to James 4:17, for example -- Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesnt do it, sins. In other words, sinning is not just doing what is wrong . . . it is ALSO failing to do what is right when you see that it must be done. It is sinning by OMITTING the righteous act you should do, and so has come to be called a sin of ommission.

You also say, Then you say First, Paul spends a good bit of time dealing with the corporate worship gathering, in more than one of his letters  Again I am not sure where it is you are referring, you did not provide the references, and this definition  corporate worship if this idea of corporate worship is not in the bible anywhere, what is it? . Never do we see that bible saying that we assemble to worship in a corporate setting.

To deny that the Bible doesnt talk about worshipping together, you have to deny that prayer is a way to worship, and that singing Gods praise is a way to worship, and that submitting to the teaching of his truth is a way to worship, and that giving ones tithes, offerings and gifts is a way to worship, and that gathering for the Lords Supper observance is a way to worship. But then, I guess thats what youre doing, isnt it?

I do not mean to be trite or smart-mouthed, when I say, as do you, Show me the scripture. Show me where these acts, so clearly spoken of as being acts of worship throughout the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, are not so for the church in this day. Show me the scripture that says, Praying is not worship, when the Bible speaks of people worshipping by praying. Show me the scripture that says, Singing praise is not worship, when the Bible speaks of people worshipping in song. Show me the scripture that says, Giving is not worship, when the Bible speaks of people worshipping by giving tithes and offerings and sacrifices.

If you go right down the line with Jay, you will assert, as he did, that in the OT, it was the priests who are spoken of as serving by sacrifice and acts of worship, and not the people. You would, of course, be wrong. For just one example, look to the story of Samuel. His father and mother went up to the temple to sacrifice and worship. Note, Elkanah was NOT A PRIEST, but the Bible speaks of him as offering sacrifices and worship. And there are many other scriptures that speak of the PEOPLE, not just the priests, sacrificing and worshipping. The priests were certainly the ones who, in the temple, did the actual killing and blood-letting and incense burning and singing and praying IN THE TEMPLE GROUNDS, but the Bible nevertheless says that the PEOPLE are sacrificing and worshipping, just as it says of Elkanah and Hannah. To say that only the priests served the lord or took part in acts of service is to deny what the Bible clearly says.

I guess thats enough for now.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2000

Mike, are you saying by "then worship is 24\7 according to John 4:24" that going to church is unnecessary? Like some that "I can worship God wherever I choose; out here in the trees is fine, I don't need church"? Please clarify.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

John-

That is a good question, And I am sure that you are familar with Hebrews 10:25 and I am also. But what I am asserting is that according to the bible assembly is not for worship, nor is worship for assembly . We ARE to assemble, but the bible is clear that this cannot be for worship, because worship is not done and CANNOT be done from a physical location. To worship the Father correctly, we must follow the bible accurately. The bible says in John 4:24 " God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Now my spiritual prostration before the Father is 24/7 which finds me worshipping while at assembly( spiritually), but assembly is not for this purpose. All external actions are service. This is a consistent theme in the entire bible, although we must properly understand the transition between the old and new covenant. Assembly is for many things but never does the bible say we are to assemble to worship. I hope this helps.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Sam

As for the copy to your post I copied it and I am going send my answers ( Lord willing)after I have had the time to adequately review study then answer. Thanks for the time you are putting forth, it is appreciated. If there is a hole in this logic, you guys on this forum will find it.

Mike

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Sam

As for answering your post I copied it and I am going send my answers ( Lord willing)after I have had the time to adequately review, study, then answer. Thanks for the time you are putting forth, it is appreciated. If there is a hole in this logic, you guys on this forum will find it.

Mike

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

To worship the Father correctly, we must follow the bible accurately. The bible says in John 4:24 " God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Now my spiritual prostration before the Father is 24/7

See, here's part of the problem, Mike. You are taking this verse and interpreting it in a certain way. That certain way is very probably a valid interpretation. But part of the problem is that it is not the ONLY valid interpretation, yet you are treating your interpretation as the ONLY valid one. And so when I do not recognize your interpretation as being the only valid one, you declare that I am wrong, and that I misunderstand what worship is.

The question has to be asked, "What did Jesus mean when he said to the Samritan woman, 'worship in spirit and in truth'?" According to you, Jesus meant that we are to worship 24/7, rather than in a physical location. Let me turn your words back on you. Show me the scripture where he says that this is what he means here. Unless you can show a passage where he specifically explains this saying in that way, then you are simply giving your interpretation of what he means, just as I am when I disagree with you.

And please understand this also, Mike. You and I are not far apart on this matter. I agree with you, to a certain extent, about what Jesus is telling this woman. She has understood from her teachers that when one worshipped God, it involved certain acts in a certain place at a certain time. Her question shows this outlook -- "Which is the correct place to do the worshipping, our place or their place?" Jesus' answer is indeed to say that worship is not limited to a time and place, but is to happen continually in the heart of the one devoted to God. You and I agree perfectly as far as this.

Where we leave each other is when you limit that description to mean that NO physical or mental act in ANY location can be called worship. But in making that limitation, you are drawing a line where Jesus does not. Jesus does NOT say anything like, "No physical act in any place is to be called worship." But that's what you have him saying. And you do NOT have any passage of scripture to support that assertion. THAT is the matter on which we are differing.

But let me grant you part of your argument for just a moment, for the sake of making a point to you. Let's grant for a moment that no physical act can be properly called "worship", and that "worship" only means being devoted to God 24/7. Ok, fine. but that means these things are also true: 1) If I am devoted to God 24/7, then when I pray, I am doing so in a spirit of worship, even if it isn't CALLED an "act of worship". The fact is that I'm praying while, at the same time, I am worshipping. 2) In the same way, when I am singing praises to God, I am doing it while, at the same time, I am worshipping. 3) In the same way, when I am writing my offering check and placing it in the hands of the leaders of the church, I am doing so while, at the same time, I am worshipping.

AND, 4) if I am in a room where a bunch of other people are, at the same time, worshipping, because they are 24/7 devoted to God, then we are worshipping together, in a physical place (because since we exist in a physical time and place, we can't very well do anything anywhere that ISN'T a physical place). We are singing praises together, and we are praying together, and we are being taught from the Word of God together. And since we are all worshippers, we are worshipping together. if you don't want to call it a "worship service", that's fine. I'm happy to call it "a public gathering where people are together while they are worshipping, and while they are in the same place they are also singing and praying and listening to the Word together."

You seem hung up on the "physical place" idea. Let me assure you that no one on this forum, I believe, will assert that it is the gathering together in a place that makes it worship. But you must in turn allow that gathering together in a place does not mean that worship is not happening, because the people gathered together there are at the very least individually worshipping as they do the things they do together. I hope that we can agree on this.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2000

Sam

You said a ton, I will need a few days.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

But what is the physical gathering of saints primary purpose?

You might say worship, yet it is never referred to that way in the N.T.

We see assemblying for purposes of teaching, for purposes of taking the Lord's Supper, for purposes of encouraging one another and spurring one another on to love and good deeds, but worship is not mentioned as a purpose for gathering.

Now, you say if we are worshipping 24/7, then an assembly is corporate worship, so we can call it a worship service. Ahem, well, breathing is a 24/7 thing too, so we can rightly call it a breathing service?

If you ignore poor translations, if you ignore man-made headings in scriptures, you see assemblies are not mentioned as being for worship, but for the Lord's Supper (I Cor 11:17-34), the strengthing of the church (I Cor 14:26), spurring on toward love and good deeds (Heb 10:24-25). And yes, I know that I Cor 14:25 mentions someone worshipping in the assembly, but note that person was an unbeliever or a inquirer (v 24), and note it doesn't say he will join in worship, just he will fall down and worship.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Is not the Lord's Supper, the remembrance and reflection of what Christ has done for us and His Lordship, an act of worship?

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

John

Respectfully, I ask where or how do we get that the Lord's supper is worship? I ask for a scriptural reference for this idea. Be careful with the phrase "act of worship" because this appears to me to be a false definition , along with a few others ( corporate worship, worship assembly, worship service) these too do not appear in the bible), because these two words are not placed together in scripture, but it is from a presuppostion of what we think worship is. Also what I contend is that "worship" and "service" are totally different, or exclusive .One does not mean the other and vice-versa. But I encourage you to take a look at Jay Wilson's material on worship and you will get and idea where I stand. Not that he is the my authority but what he teaches seems to be consistent more than any that I have studied, since the bible is what is my guide, I see that what he teaches seems the most consistent with the bible and I have went through a few in depth discussions with a number of people and it seems as though nobody has offered and more consistent accurate rebuttal to what he is teaching. That is one of the reasons I am on here dicussing this with you all. I am sure that someone, if this is false will punch big holes in it. A word study on "proskuneo" and "latruo", and "latrea" also sebo will help also if you do not prefer reading Jay's material. If I see in the scriptures this does not hold up I will change, I ask the same of you.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Mike, two quick questions here.

1) Do you believe in or accept the concept of the trinity, or the triune God?

2) Do you accept the Book of Esther as being about God's people, or as having anything to do with God?

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2000

Sam -

I would like to refer you and anyone else to Jay's material on worship in his book called "cleansing the inside of the cup", since it appears that we are not getting anywhere in this manner of discussion. I thought all could read "Cleansing" and then we could proceed from there. Thanks!

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

No, Mike. If I care to read Jay's stuff, I'll read it. In fact, I've read a lot of it already.

But I'm not having this discussion with Jay. I'm having it with you. If Jay wants to come round, I'll be happy to talk with him as well.

But I have answered your questions and your assertions, and have made points and asked questions of my own. If you are interested in discussion, then answer what I wrote. Without simply parroting Jay, if you please.

And if you understand where I am leading with the questions about the trinity and the book of Ruth, then deal with the issue. Don't just tell me to "read what Jay wrote." Stay with the discussion, or say that you can't.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Sam-

I do not know what to do with the way you ask these questions, Not that I lack an answer as you might assume, but I see the tone and attitude in which you ask. To quote you "(By the way, something that kinda irks me is that you came in asking a question to which you had already planned your answer." And then you do the very thing that "irks" you by asking those two questions. By asking questions that you already have the answers to, as to straighten folks like me out or to corner me in some trap. 1. you ask "1) Do you believe in or accept the concept of the trinity, or the triune God?" This concept is clearly articulated in the bible as I am sure you will agree, ALTHOUGH THE WORD TRINITY OR TRIUNE DO NOT APPEAR IN THE BIBLE, just Godhead. But those words are an accurate description of the three in one, not at all contradictory to the scriptural teaching on the Godhead, yet using "act" of worship is contradictory to the teaching of worship, Although as was pointed out to me I did not define worship, I contend worship is not physical, but spiritual and not at all an "act" that is seen by others, so I told John to " be careful" of such terms. Now I ask you if worship is done in " spirit and truth" how can that be an "act" that is viewed by others as in physical motion, or deed? The Father says we MUST worship in this manner!(John 4:24) But again to this I am certain that you will disagree? I think it is really not accomplishing to much to continue this where I reject what you assert and you the same, I thought a change of pace would be better so that we could not just spin our wheels. I do ask though, you do not assume my motives for bringing this topic up, to quote you again "looking to correct folks" , not all people who go about asking questions in this manner have that in mind. And then I asked where the proof in scripture is for the assertion that you made " prayer IS worship" and your answer to me is, "Show me the scripture that says, Praying is not worship, Now as I understand you are the one who made the assertion that prayer IS worship, so I believe it is you who have the burden of proof, just throwing it back at me is not an answer.

I see no reason to continue, if you are unwilling to read ALL of what Jay has wrote. This by the way could be very good for your argument, since you will know exactly where it is I am coming from, and you will have a head start in refutting all the arguments I present. I did see that you said you only read SOME of his material, what if you missed an essential part that would have tied all this together, but you did not finish? I would even ask that maybe you would do that word study that you did not get to, and then we will talk.

I hope we can continue in an edifying manner.

Is there even a slight possibility that you are wrong? Is your interpretation the one that is always correct? Are you always right? Well let US look at this material sincerely and with an open mind. I will take an honest look at what you have to say from the scriptures , and I ask the same in return.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

Sam-

As for your second question, is it Ruth or Ester? you used both.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2000

I'm sorry. It was Esther. We're doing a lot with Ruth in church right now. Got it confused for a moment.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

And then I asked where the proof in scripture is for the assertion that you made " prayer IS worship" and your answer to me is, "Show me the scripture that says, Praying is not worship, Now as I understand you are the one who made the assertion that prayer IS worship, so I believe it is you who have the burden of proof, just throwing it back at me is not an answer. Mike:

Ya see, that's specifically why I used the words "You appear, or at least you gave an impression of appearing, to have come here with an agenda". I did not assume or accuse you of anything. I told you what the appearance of your approach was, how it looked to some readers.

And then you do the very thing that "irks" you by asking those two questions. By asking questions that you already have the answers to, as to straighten folks like me out or to corner me in some trap.

It is a very different thing to use leading questions in the midst of a discussion to make a point than it is to conceal one's intentions from the beginning. The second of those is what you and Chadwick gave the appearance of doing. And as I said, we had someone else do that very clearly not long ago, and the sensors were already out and sensitive to it.

And then I asked where the proof in scripture is for the assertion that you made " prayer IS worship" and your answer to me is, "Show me the scripture that says, Praying is not worship, Now as I understand you are the one who made the assertion that prayer IS worship, so I believe it is you who have the burden of proof, just throwing it back at me is not an answer.

You continue to ignore the scripture that I gave you. You cannot honestly say that I have not given you scripture as argument. I gave you scripture passages that clearly describe a number of physical acts, and calls them "worship", including prayer. I listed for you a number of passages that say thigns like, "They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshipped God, saying, "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!" (Rev. 7:11b-12.) If you don't think that such verses describe worship being expressed through physical acts, then argue the point verse by verse, but don't say that I haven't given you scriptural arguments, because I have.

I see no reason to continue, if you are unwilling to read ALL of what Jay has wrote. This by the way could be very good for your argument, since you will know exactly where it is I am coming from, and you will have a head start in refutting all the arguments I present. I did see that you said you only read SOME of his material, what if you missed an essential part that would have tied all this together, but you did not finish?

I continue to work through Jay's site. There's a lot there, and will take some good time to digest properly. But you came on a few days ago and asked if my lack of response was indication that I had quit and conceded the argument to you, so I came back and answered as best I cuold. I will continnue to work through the things on the site, as I have leisure.

But let's make this very, very clear. I'm not arguing with Jay. I'm arguing with you. As far as participation in this particular discussion is concerned, I don't give a flyin' flip what Jay says about anything. If he were here, I would. But YOU are the one here, and I want YOU to argue the points, FROM SCRIPTURE, AND NOT FROM JAY'S WRITING. Make the arguments your own, and present them, and refute what I say, from scripture, as I have done for you.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Mike:

The first paragraph in the above post is in the incorrect place. I made an error while copying to my reply. The first paragraph should read as follows:

Mike:

. I do ask though, you do not assume my motives for bringing this topic up, to quote you again "looking to correct folks" , not all people who go about asking questions in this manner have that in mind.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Sam- Is there even a slight possibility that you are wrong? Is your interpretation the one that is always correct? Are you always right? Well let US look at this material sincerely and with an open mind. I will take an honest look at what you have to say from the scriptures , and I ask the same in return.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

Well let US look at this material sincerely and with an open mind. I will take an honest look at what you have to say from the scriptures , and I ask the same in return.

Mike, I'm waiting for you to do just that. I have come to you with scripture, repeatedly, and you have come to me with your interrpetation of John 4. And nothing else.

Again, don't argue Jay Wilson's material. Argue the scriptures. that's what I'm doing. It would help if you would also.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2000

And while I'm here, Mike, let me answer these as well.

Is there even a slight possibility that you are wrong? Is your interpretation the one that is always correct? Are you always right?

Sam- Is there even a slight possibility that you are wrong? Is your interpretation the one that is always correct? Are you always right?

Allow me to quote myself, from an earlier post in this thread:

You are taking this verse and interpreting it in a certain way. That certain way is very probably a valid interpretation.

You see, Mike, of the two of us, I am the only one so far who has admitted that the other's position holds some truth. No, I don't think I am always right. I do make mistakes. And I have admitted here that the position you take is a possible interpretation of the passage. So, you see, it isn't me who is demanding that my way be the only right and true way. The person doing that would be you, as I said in the next few words of that post . . . But part of the problem is that it is not the ONLY valid interpretation, yet you are treating your interpretation as the ONLY valid one. And so when I do not recognize your interpretation as being the only valid one, you declare that I am wrong, and that I misunderstand what worship is.

So please do not cast aspersions my way, declaring through your questioning that I have implied that my answer is the only right answer. I have granted that you are at least partially, and possibly completely, correct. You, however, have not done the same for me.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2000

Dear Brethren, I have read all the posts on this particular thread with much interest and have seen much potential in what is discussed. I ask that someone please tell me what the exact proposition is that is being discussed, or that a thesis/antithesis be stated clearly and a summary of the actual points made. I am having a difficult time sorting these out. Thank you.

Keith Cooper

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2000

Keith:

Thanks for your interest. In a nutshell, here is the argument:

from Mike and Chadwick -- The church misunderstands the concept of worship. The things we usually call worship are actually not -- prayer, communing in the Lord's Supper, singing praise, etc. -- these things that the church gathers to do are not worship. They are acts of service. Therefore, the church is wrong to say something like, "We will have a worship service at 11am each Sunday,", or "we are gathering to worship." Worship is only what happens in the heart of the Christian, and is defined as the Christian's 24-hour-a-day, 7- day-a-week devotion to God. Their primary scriptural source is John 4:21-24, specifically the statement made by Jesus that true worshippers worship "in spirit and in truth."

from Sam (me) -- That's fine, to an extent. True, worship begins and exists primarily in the heart. A song sung from a person with no devotion to God is certainly not worship. But it takes it too far to say that prayer is not worship, or that praising God is not worship, etc. These things are the natural physical outgrowth and expression of a worshipful heart and mind, and are, in fact, described as "worship" throughout the Scriptures. For instance, in Revelation 5:14 -- "The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped."

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2000

Thanks Sam. Mike and Chadrick, let me know if this is not accurate, but it seems like it is now that I have read it all again.

Keith

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2000

Well, Mike,

It's been 11 days since your last posting here, and longer than that since you actually answered a question or made an assertion. Are we to understand that you are no longer interested in discussing what the Bible says about worship?

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2000