Come and read about me! If you dare!
Most here will say..."Mark is a _________.(fill in the blanks). My favorite "filthy Christ killer."
I wonder how many on this forum are...THEM!
http://shillum.strongcity.com/shillum04.html
THE MARK OF THE BEAST
What is this mark of the beast? It is written, "And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. ...And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men [atom bomb], and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles (wonders) which he had power to do in the sight of the beast ... and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six." Rev.13:11-18.
As we have read in the mysterious book, a series of circumstances arise which take away the people's will to resist. "Then the nations will bow down before us, if for no other reason but to get the right to exist." Here is a power that has been able to bring about a set of conditions where people could not buy or sell except they have the mark of the beast.
The Scriptures shed light on this mark and how people are blind to it. It is written: "Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes." Deut. 11:18.
This mark or sign reveals who one's master is. If one has the mark of God, he is one who lays the word of God up in his heart. That is-he will always and only obey the word of God which is in his heart. On the other hand, if he has the mark of the beast, he will lay up the beast's words in his heart and obey them. In the Scriptures a "beast" is the symbol used for worldly governments.
-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000
Answers
John....
That would be cool!!! I'm tired of looking for my wallet!!!
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Sammy Boy....
Excellent book...that "More Than Conquerors."
May I suggest another one if you do not have it....Prof. Glenn
Bourne's "Tower of Truth." Should be available through Florida
Christian College.
It's kind of shallow in details at times....but provides a good
synopis for forming your thinking and laying a foundation for further
study.
I concur fully with everything Michael says on this subject. It is
absolute hermenutical butchery to not understand the book of
Revelation in the context of the day it was written.
By the way John Wilson....it would also would be cool if they could
implant a chip that somehow starts my car. I'm also tired of looking
for my keys!!!
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Uhhh.....aren't we already registered via a Social Security number???
You can't file your taxes without one.....in fact, it's hard to do
anything without one.
Oh my....I've just come up with the answer to the book of
Revelation!!!!!.....our Social Security number is the mark of the
beast.....we can't buy or sell goods without it!!!!!
See ya'll later.....I've got to write a prophecy book and make
millions.
I know I can count on you guys to buy one.
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Thanks a lot John.....go ahead....rain on my parade!!!
Has anyone done one on Driver's License numbers being "da mark?"
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Michael....
It is always refreshing to see someone with the proper understanding
of the book of Revelation.
Thanks for beginning my day with a "refreshing."
Your brother,
-- Anonymous, April 22, 2000
Mark... the "governmental system" is one interpretation, not THE.
But, Mark I would like to know what the question is? In every post,
you never answer our questions and you always evade them. Let me know.
-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000
TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY
Lesson 30: The anti-Christian world government's use of modern
technology to launch its war against Christians.
I A dictator proclaimed a God.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb
slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8).
A The Apostle Paul described this dictator who would
establish himself as a god.
1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and
our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren,
2 Not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by
spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from
us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come
(II Thess. 2:1-2, RSV).
1 Paul's objective here was to correct an erroneous
impression which had been made on the minds of the
Thessalonians that Christ had returned, or was about
to return.
2 Paul then described two events that will take place
prior to Christ's Second Coming.
3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day
will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of
lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He opposes and exalts himself over everything that is
called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in
God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to
tell you these things? (II Thess. 2:3-5, NIV).
1 First, Christ would not come until there should be a
great rebellion or revolt against civil governments
around the world after AWWI, as described in the Fifth
Trumpet prophecy.
2 The second event to look for prior to Christ's return
will be the appearance of the man of sin doomed to
destruction, who will claim that he is God.
3 He will not originate the revolt, but will capitalize
on the unprecedented upheaval to launch his bid for
world power.
B Only those who are not written in the Lamb's Book of
Life will worship the man who will claim he is God.
C What is the meaning of the statement "the lamb having
been slain from the foundation of the world? (IGENT)"
1 It refers to the time of the world's creation when
God prepared a lamb, Christ, who would and did come
to die for man's sin.
2 All those who repent of their sin and rebellion
against God and accept Christ as God's Son, the
Savior of the world, receive His gift of everlasting
life.
3 From that day of alignment with Jesus Christ onward,
a Christian's name can never be blotted out of God's
book of life.
4 Moses recorded this spiritual truth about God's book
of life during a time of crisis when the Israelites
had built an idol of gold to worship:
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh,
this people have sinned a great sin, and have made
them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if
not, blot me, I pray thee, out of the book which thou
hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath
sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book
(Exodus 32:31-33).
- Moses was clearly told here that God will blot the
names of those who sin against Him out of His book
of life.
5 The Book of Ezekiel records whose names were
originally written in God's book of life:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the
father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul
that sinneth, it shall die (Ezek. 18:4).
a God wrote every man's name in His book of life in
the beginning.
b However, the person who sins against God will die
and the sinning person's name will be blotted out
of God's book of life.
6 The Book of Romans states which men are classified as
sinners.
23 For all have sinned and come short of the glory of
God; (Rom. 3:23).
- Everyone is a sinner.
7 However, Jesus said all sins shall be forgiven unto
the sons of men except one.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven
unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith
soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost
hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal
damnation: (Mark 3:28-29).
a Jesus said all sins are forgiven unto the sons of
men, but a man will not be forgiven the sin of
rejecting the message of the Holy Spirit.
b Furthermore, a man is in danger of eternal
damnation, which is the blotting out of a person's
name from the book of life, if he chooses to
reject the Holy Spirit's message.
8 Jesus said the Holy Spirit "shall testify of me"
(John 15:26).
- In essence, the Holy Spirit's whole mission is to
testify that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of
the world.
D In summary, there are two editions of the book of life.
1 The first edition, written before man was created,
contained the names of every person who would be born
into the human race.
2 The second edition, the Lamb's book of life, does not
contain the names of those who reject Christ as the
Savior of the world, since God blots their names out
of the book of life for committing this unforgivable
sin.
3 Thus, John emphatically stated that all the names of
those who shall worship the coming self-proclaimed
dictator-god "are not written in the book of life of
the Lamb."
II Eternal considerations on the importance of what has just
been said.
9 If anyone has an ear let him hear.
10 If anyone is for captivity, to captivity he goes; if
anyone by a sword will kill, it behoves him by a sword to
be killed. Here is the endurance and the faith of the
saints (Rev. 13:9-10, IGENT).
A "If anyone has an ear let him hear" emphasizes the fact
that a decision to worship the self-proclaimed god will
also become a choice to separate oneself from God,
forever.
B The text warns that those who join the new-world
religion on the premise that the Christians deserve to
be persecuted by the Fourth Beast, will soon find that
they also are being oppressed by the system.
C The closing remark: "Here is the endurance and the faith
of the Saints," is a reference to one of God's immutable
laws.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a
man soweth, that shall he also reap (Gal. 6:7).
D "If anyone by a sword will kill, it behoves him by a
sword to be killed" means, therefore, that those who
choose to go along with the world government's program
of persecuting Christians will suffer the same fate from
the same world government they chose to support.
III The Lamb Beast's rise to power.
11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and
it had two horns like to a lamb, and spoke as a dragon
(Rev. 13:11, IGENT).
A "Two horns like to a lamb" identifies this power
structure as a religious organization.
B The beast's "two horns" represent two prominent national
powers that will assist in the initial design and on-
going shared control of this religious power structure.
C The fact that it will speak like a dragon indicates that
Satan's nation, Red China, will be instrumental in the
design and promotion of the new "Religious Beast."
D Here again China will use the facilities of an
international organization to push Satan's ideology of
unity into the religious sector.
E The lamb beast "coming up out of the earth" implies that
it will not develop from a popular movement out of the
sea of people, but rather from a plot designed by a few
international power brokers.
12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its
presence, and it makes the earth and its inhabitants
worship the first beast whose mortal wound was healed.
13 It works great signs, even making fire come down from
heaven to earth in the sight of men; (Rev. 13:12-13, RSV).
A Red China will set up the "Religious Beast" with the
same "authority of the first beast," for the purpose of
opening up a second front in its war against Christians.
B The "Religious Beast" will stage a spectacular "magic
show" which will even include fire coming down out of
heaven.
C The statement that "it makes the earth worship the first
beast" implies that the "great signs" will be so
spectacular that people will get the impression that the
"earth" and its elements are responding to the
"Religious Beast's" commands.
D The counterfeit miracles will help persuade people to go
along with the new secular and religious order.
14 And it deceives the (ones) dwelling on the earth because
of the signs which it was given to it to do before the
beast, who has the stroke of the sword and lived (again).
15 And it was given to it to give spirit to the image of
the beast, in order that the image of the beast might even
speak, and might make in order that as many as might not
worship the image of the beast should be killed
(Rev. 13:14-15, IGENT).
A The group manipulating the "Religious Beast" will erect
an image, or statue, in honor of the world leader who
will receive a mortal wound.
B They will then simulate the image of this world leader
coming to life. The image will "even speak."
C Everyone will then be ordered to worship the image which
will appear to be alive.
D The sensational effect of the speaking image will
convince many that their leader has come to life as a
god.
E How do we know that the world leader will not actually
arise from the dead?
1 First, the introduction of the "Image Man" in verse
14--and "it," (the Religious Beast), "deceives," or
tricks, "the (ones) dwelling on the earth"--clearly
labels the whole affair a lie.
2 Second, the statement that those who will refuse to
worship "the image" of the beast (i.e., not the
person) "should be killed" shows that the "Image Man"
coming to life will be nothing more than a hoax.
F The "Image Man" event reveals a cunning attempt by Satan
to mimic Jesus Christ's resurrection from the grave
after being dead for three days.
G Jesus warned His people concerning such counterfeits
when He talked to His disciples about the end times.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that
no man deceive you (Mt. 24:4).
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and
perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the
elect--if that were possible (Mt. 24:24, NIV).
25 Behold, I have told you in advance (Mt. 24:25, NASB).
- Thanks to Christ's advance warnings, Christians will
not be deceived.
IV The mark of the beast will be the main weapon used by the
world government to subdue the Christian community.
16 And it makes all men, the small and the great, both the
rich and the poor, both the free men and the slaves, in
order that they should give to them a mark on the right
hand of them or on the forehead of them (Rev. 13:16, IGENT),
17 So that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark,
that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name
(Rev. 13:17, RSV).
18 Here is wisdom. The one having reason let him count the
number of the beast; for it is the number of a man. And
the number of it (is) six hundreds (and) sixty-six
(Rev. 13:18, IGENT).
A The "Religious Beast" will use the Fourth Beast's global
computer systems to enforce the decree demanding that
everyone worship its life-like idol.
B The text shows that the replacement of cash and checks
by a computerized international monetary system, will
make it relatively easy to force people to cooperate
with the new world and religious order.
C The text warns that no one will be able to "buy or sell"
unless they have the "mark, the name of the beast or the
number of the name of it" (Rev. 13:17, IGENT) placed
permanently on their right hand, or forehead.
D In addition to one of the three acceptable computer
access identifiers, every person will need a unique
personal identification number (PIN).
E The text states that the number of the international
government will also be the number of a man.
F "Here is wisdom," reveals that some peculiar knowledge,
or skill, will be required to understand the relation-
ship between the number 666 and the name of the man who
will play the most prominent role in establishing and
controlling the world government.
G Verse 18 exhorts those who have "reason," or unique
understanding based on specialized skills, to "count"
the number of the beast, since the number 666 will be
connected to the name of this specific man.
H The word "count" in the original Greek means compute.
I Today's generation, with its exposure to computerized
banking and government social-security systems, can
readily understand that a unique number can be entered
into a computer that will compute, or find, a man's name
that corresponds to his personal identification number.
J Thus, God has revealed in advance the specific computer
access identification number of the future world leader
who will be worshipped as a god, so that people will be
able to positively identify him at the time of the end
by connecting his number 666, with his name.
K In summary, Red China will use the facilities of the
beast's computerized monetary sword to overcome and kill
Christians around the globe.
L The beast's financial computers will systematically
separate the true Christians from the unbelievers who
are simply going through the motions of Christianity as
they mill around in the outer court of today's Christian
churches.
M During the days of this economic persecution the true
body of believers will not have to spend time trying to
determine which people should be "cast out outside" the
Church, since the beast's computers will be systematic-
ally separating Christ's servants from the unbelievers
using the mark of the beast.
-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000
The Mark Of The Beast will be like a 666 or it will look like it and
plus how we can tell it will come to a moneyless society and the
world is already coming to it.I think it will be VERY
SOON.
-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000
Hey Candyman,
Make sure you do the "end font" after the "font red" (/font)
Or else everything else in this thread will remain red, thus taking
away the effect you desired.
As for the beast....
It's the Catholic Church.
-- Anonymous, April 18, 2000
You gotta admit that it is intersting...if you bother to read the
whole thing.
-------------------------
THE KINGDOM OF MONEY
"We shall. . . establish huge monopolies, reservoirs of colossal
riches [International Banking], that even the large economies of the
nations will depend on it to such an extent that they will go to the
bottom together with the credit of the nations on the day after the
political smash. You gentlemen here who are economists, just make an
estimate of the significance of this combination. In every possible
way we must develop the significance of our United Nations by
representing it as the protector and benefactor of all those who
voluntarily submit to us.
"The suitability of the nations as a political force is dead - we
need not take it into account; but those who possess and exercise
control over land can still be harmful to us. This is because they
are self-sufficient due to the resources of the land on which they
live or have control over. It is essential, therefore, for us at
whatever cost to deprive them of their land. This goal will be best
attained by increasing the pressures and burdens upon land-real
property, by loading lands with debt [property taxes, environmental
protection issues]. These measures will severely limit landholding
and keep it in a state of humble and unconditional submission.
"...At the same time we must intensively patronize trade and
industry. First place, however, must be given to speculation, that
part which provides a controlling opposition to industry. An industry
that is not deeply involved in speculation will multiply money in
private hands and will serve to restore agriculture by freeing the
land from indebtedness to the banks. What we want is that industry
should drain off from the land both labor and money, and by means of
speculation, transfer into our hands all the money of the world. This
will throw all the nations into the ranks of the lower-class workers.
Then the nations will bow down before us, if for no other reason than
to get the right to exist.
"To complete the ruin of national industry we shall, in addition
to speculation, add the lure of luxury which we have developed among
the nations. We have created a greedy demand for luxury which is
swallowing up everything [through artfully constructed
advertising]. ...We shall raise the rate of wages which, however,
will not bring any advantage to the workers, because at the same
time, we shall stimulate inflation to bring about a rise in
prices. ...We shall further very skilfully undermine the sources of
production by stimulating the workers to drunkenness and making them
think they are in control of everything. We shall accompany this with
every effort to eradicate all national educated influences from the
face of the earth.
"It is important that the true meaning of what is happening
should not be understood by the peoples or nations before the right
time has come. In order to accomplish this we shall hide it under a
pretended zealous motive of serving the working classes and the great
principles of political economy. For these economic theories we are
carrying on a strong program of propaganda.(See Note 3)
"The intensification of military armaments and the increase of
police forces are all essential for the completion of the
aforementioned plans. The end result which we seek is that in all
nations of the world there should, other than ourselves, be only the
masses of the common worker, a few millionaires devoted to our
interests, police and soldiers. "We must create upheavals, discords
and open hostility. By this we shall gain a double advantage. First
off, we will be able to keep all countries under our control. They
will submit to this control because they well know that we have the
power to create disorders or to restore order whenever we like. All
these countries are quite used to the fact that we possess the
indispensable force of extortion [economic sanctions]. Secondly, by
means of conspiracies and scheming we shall cause utter confusion by
the strings we have tied into the cabinets of all nations. We have
created these controls within the governments by means of political
and economic treaties or loan obligations. In order to create all
this discord and confusion of power, we must use great cunning and
insight during negotiations and agreements. However, we shall use the
opposite tactics of masking what we do under a cloak of honesty and
compliancy using the 'official language' or jargon of government
known as legal language. In this way, the peoples and governments,
whom we have taught to look only at the outside of whatever we
present to them and never examine it in depth, will still continue to
accept us as the benefactors and saviors of the human race.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Hi, Duane;
I believed it was the Catholic Church for 40 years, until I took the
above course. It's pretty difficult to change one's mind after
believing something so completely for so many years. The proof and
reasoning, however, I could not ignore.
It is Red China. The above book was placed in print 10 years ago,
long before the current sabre-rattling of China.
A lot of people think 'Mystery Babylon' is the U.S., but it isn't.
It is a CITY ~ 'polis' in Greek is 'city' and cannot be translated
any other way. 'Mystery Babylon' is a city which will be built in
Iraq. (Red China will be the main government involved in its
creation).
The 'beast' and 'Mystery Babylon' are two different entities, with
two different purposes, but all designed to punish and eliminate
Christians.
The course is a 50-week (year long) course, and I just started it in
June of '99, so I haven't even gotten through all of the lessons
myself yet.
Offered prayerfully so that all Christians will become aware.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
I should correct or amend my previous post:
The 'beast' nation with a religious purpose is Red China. The man who
is the bearer of the symbol '666' has not yet been revealed. The
evil entity known as 'Mystery Babylon' is a city which will be built
to house the computerized system which punishes Christians by not
allowing us to buy or sell unless we capitulate and take the 'mark';
the IMF has the features (but it is not yet known for sure if it is
the 10-horned entity) which will control all monetary transactions of
the world. They are all tied together under the most evil entity ~
Satan.
Prayerfully submitted.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Also remember that Mystery Babylon will be very crafty, that is
deceitful, liars, evil. Also when HIS, and HE are mentioned below in
Dan, it might be helpful to read "Babylon the organization" into the
spaces. Just for fun.
There may be an individual but I think it more likely we should be
looking for Babylon, MONEY, usury, taxes, control, ie,
environmentalism, welfare, and all the other means by which our money
and our liberty is taken from us and given to others.
We are all confused and devouring each other by proclaiming that this
Christian church is the one or that is the one. Jesus Christ is the
One and we had better start observing that.
Let's admit that we know nothing and are dependent on the guidance of
the Holy Spirit for Truth.
_________________________________
(Dan 8:25 KJV) "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to
prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and
by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the
Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
(Dan 8:26 KJV) "And the vision of the evening and the morning which
was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be
for many days."
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
AKelley,
I attempt to answer with my response by using the Scriptures. IMO,
everything else is tainted.
We are being torn apart by misinformation, boggie men are erected
constantly. "This is your enemy. No, that is your enemy! No, the
milita is your enemy! No, the government is your enemy! NO, goofy
right wing Christian Cultist are the enemy! No, environmentalism is
the enemy. Look at the discord. Please!
Usury, IMO, is the main tool of the ENEMY! We have already been
taken over.
(Psa 15:5 KJV) "He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor
taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall
never be moved."
(Ezek 18:13 KJV) "Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken
increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all
these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him."
God hates usury and Anti-Christ uses it to destroy people and nations.
And Babylon will be destroyed. We have Gods Word on that.
I thought Y2K might be the instrument used to do this but, wrong, or
was I...(Dan 7:25 KJV) "And he shall speak great words against the
most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and THINK
TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS: and they shall be given into his hand until
a time and times and the dividing of time."
(Dan 7:26 KJV) "But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away
his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end."
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Connie,
Perhaps it would make more sense to think of Babylon as the Great
City. Or the interconnected City. Or the SYSTEM which is destroying
us. It is called Babylon because that is where it originated.
(Dan 3:2 KJV) "Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent to gather together
the princes, the governors, and the captains, the judges, the
treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the rulers of the
provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which
Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up."
(Dan 3:3 KJV) "Then the princes, the governors, and captains, the
judges, the treasurers, the counsellors, the sheriffs, and all the
rulers of the provinces, were gathered together unto the dedication
of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood
before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up."
(Dan 3:4 KJV) "Then an herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded, O
people, nations, and languages,"
(Dan 3:5 KJV) "That at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet,
flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of music, ye
fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king
hath set up:"
And all who would not worship the BEAST are cast into the fire.
Maybe economic fire, legal fire, WACO fire, IRS fire. I have been
thrown into bankruptcy. It is not fun when you are ruined. Just me
opinion.
What would it be like if we were not constantly bombarded with taxes,
usury, fear of being thrown off our property if we did not pay the
property taxes. The founding Fathers of this Nation intended us to
live free from government intrusion. Babylon needs to
control,eliminate, that so we are unable to resist for fear,
confusion=Babylon, Babylon=confusion.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
No offense Mark, but you're wierd. And you're posts are confusing not
so much that I don't have the ability to comprehend your position as
much as it seems to reflect the disjointedness of the writings of a
mad man.
Duane...
I don't agree at all. I think when one looks at the genre of
apocryphal literature, one sees that there is a consistency in the
lack of specifics. What I mean is that I take more of a Glenn Bourne
understanding, in that, prophetic references must always give
credence to the original audience. It makes no sense that John,
giving a message of hope to persecuted Christians (who desperately
needed his message, by the way), would say that a BEAST would come
(there are actually two) and that Beast would be the Roman Catholic
Church. What hope is there in that for the 1st Century Believer? Now,
understanding the historical context of the emperor cult and it's
influence on the early church is imperative to this thought.
I believe that John is speaking against false religion (of any
stripe) that would cause men to fall from the faith. Surely, the
Catholic Church isn't necessarily excluded but it is not the narrow
focus either.
Just my $.02 worth.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Hi, Mark,
'Mystery Babylon' IS a city ~ to be built near the original Babylon.
I wonder how many know that Saddam Hussein had already been
reconstructing Babylon, with the intent of exceeding the original's
splendor, BEFORE the Gulf War? Even now, Iran is negotiating with
Red China to build nuclear weaponry in Iran, and can Iraq be far
behind? Any thing Iran has, Iraq will want more of.
There are many different evil entities, operating on different
levels, working at the behest of Satan. The Dragon Beast is one
(very fierce); the 10-horned economic beast is another; the son of
perdition (the one requiring his mark for people to buy or sell); and
Mystery Babylon is another.
We also need to remember the 'root of all evil' ~ the love of money.
As for Christians, we are to pray for our leaders, obey our laws,
even oppressive ones, and pay our taxes. It's only money. The
Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, for which I am very thankful,
are not on a par with the Bible.
One of the valuable things about Charles Miller's work is that it
gets all the characters straight, and clarifies many of the enigmas
of all the end-times prophecies.
www.tip.org
All 50 lessons are free on the Internet. The time-line is on the
'Connie and Dragonslayer' thread, even though it didn't turn out as
organized as I wanted.
Prayerfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
One Of my Elders works for the gov. in Los alamos... he said that as
far as the mark of the beast being a computer chip- it is real. The
technology is already in place. The government can use it to track
your where- a- bouts and have your financial, health, credit info
inside. All one would have to do (if implanted in the human flesh) is
to run it under a scanner that a computer accesses and whala... all
info needed. A cashless society ... is in reality already here to a
degree. And this is the next step. To the secular mind- it is perfect
for you do not need cash or even credit or debit cards for they can
be stolen- but this cannot.
Beware! But for Christians- if the premil. view is correct then we
will be gone already for the mark will not be implimented till half
way during the tribulation.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
AKelley:
Do you mean pre-trib? The pre-millennial reign of Christ has to be a
reality. But that will be at the end of the tribulation.
'Amillennial' means 'outside the millennium'.
Most Christians (the Sebat generation) are sound asleep in their
pews, thinking that there will be a pre-trib 'rapture', as it's
called, and that they won't be here to go through it. Too many
verses indicate that we will go through the tribulation part-way
(over half), but that we will be taken out at a point (unknown) close
to the end of the age (of world governments) which will by that time
be unbearable. (Not the end of the world). Christ and His saints
(we) will return to reign for a thousand years of peace and the
restoration of the earth to its former healthy state ~ the
millennium.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
They already implant tracking chips in dogs and cats that have all
that pet's ownership and veterinary info on it ... that they can do
it with people too is not a question of if, it is a question of when.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Now I must admit that from Mark Hillyard and Connie...the majority of
the gobbelty-gook being spewed forth thus far here is quite
expectable. But from A.Kelley and John Wilson I must admit surprise
at the adoption of such Hal Lindsey-ish garbage.
Do you actually have any idea just how long this computer chip theory
has been going on?
Here's a question...don't you in the slightest see it as the height
of arrogance to completely (and with somewhat hermeneutic violent
blasphemy) ignore the imperiled lives of those to whom the book of
Revelation was originally intended for and to haphazardly apply all
of it to yourself? For those of you that think the historical context
of the book of Revelation doesn't matter as much as your most-
reliable commentary (the latest edition of USA TODAY)...you should
really reconsider just how presumptuous your pre-millennial
hermeneutic is.
There is not one Lindsey-ite out there who can show with any
authority from Scripture that we should be so focused on such details
as has been discussed thus far on this forum. The ONLY detail that
the apostle John, or any other NT author, thought was important in
eschatological matters was that we should be ready for it as if it
would be today. Because it will be like a thief in the night. (And
once Jesus comes back...[to quote a cartoon scholar] "that's all
folks." There are no bouncing Jesus themes in Scripture!
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Charles Miller discredits most of what Hal Lindsey wrote.
Following is his response to one critic:
Hi Connie,
****'s comment that Daniel's Four Beast prophecy is a "repeat
prophecy" is standard inherited boiler plate, which the "repeat
prophets" of our time never tire of repeating. It shows their
shallow approach to studying prophecy. No real analysis of the
prophetic texts, just accept what has been handed down and summarily
declare another opinion wrong. If **** reads Today's Technology
perhaps he will see the errors of the superficial interpretations
from the past and move forward into the intended purpose of the end-
time prophecies.
The name of that book is Opertion Exodus by Gustav Scheller, ISBN 1
85240 226
1.
The last time I talked with Garry he said he was going to come up
with one tape of information, but he didn't know when he would get to
it.
As far as dubbing the videos I produced you are welcome to do so. It
should reduce the cost per tape considerably.
Chuck
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Also this:
Hi Connie,
****'s comment: "Dispensationalists like your Charles Miller
incorrectly use the Nile as a way of proving their ideas," reveals
Mark's penchant for making command level pronouncements without any
supporting facts. He doesn't know what my position is on
dispensationalism and he could not have determined my position on the
subject from what I have written about prophecies on the Nile since
he hasn't read what I wrote on the Nile yet. Just for the record I
consider dispensationalism nonsense.
Chuck
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
And this:
Hi Connie,
Thanks for forwarding ****'s comments. If he reads my book he will
find out why the inherited prophetic interpretations are not worth
the paper they are printed on. The one he repeated about the fall of
Jerusalem in 70 a.d. being the great tribulation that will never be
equaled again, is one of the more ridiculous interpretations. 1.1
million Jews died in 70 a.d., so what does he think 6 million Jews
slaughtered during World War II was, a time of tranquility? It comes
down to people have to be willing to understand that the time-of-the-
end prophecies were absolutely sealed until our time.
Chuck
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
I'm teaching thru the book of the Revelation in our adult Sunday
School. Just finishing chapter 3. If anyone is interested, I can
zip up my teaching notes so far. I've started giving them out in
class, although they are not prepared for publication (they are the
notes I actually teach from, and so quotations and such are un-
attributed, sentences aren't all complete, etc.) It fills 29 pages so
far in Microsoft Word.
I'm using about a dozen different books as resources, some of which I
agree with a lot, and some of which I disagree with a lot, but which
have useful contrast and background material. The book from which I
have based most of my teaching, because it makes the most overall
sense to me, is "More Than Conquerors", by William Hendricksen. It
is strongly based in some of the ideas Michael is bringing out, that
the first level of interpretation of the book has to take strongly
into account the original audience and God's message to them.
I'll be happy to zip up a copy of my teaching notes for you, if
you're interested in a view which contrast most of what's being
written in this thread and in the other end times thread that Connie
has been filling up for us. Just understand that it is not being
written for publication, and is in rough and unattributed form.
-- Anonymous, April 19, 2000
Michael W. Demastus does have a point about adding to the book of
Revelations sort of like what the commandment was in Duet. "Thou shalt
not add to nor take away from these words". We know it is some symbol
causing spiritual death whether a chip, a name written with a
ballpoint pen, or a UPC tattoo. And the whole world falls into it
because they love their life more than they love GOD. Don't worry
about the mark, worry about being free from sin so you can be free to
die. Dying isn't any more pain than a common cold but to die with a
carnal mind would bring on the sting of death of dying in one's sins.
You guys invalidate your own testimonies when you go into all this
speculation, say "it could be" and "I believe it might be", hows about
a few qualifiers because You might not know. This isn't jeopardy. What
is "I'd rather not guess". Correct!
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY
Lesson 37: A look at how the wake up connection between Christ's
parable of the ten virgins and Zechariah's space-age prophecies
define when the Sebat generation will wake up.
I Christ used the parable of the ten virgins, who were
suddenly awakened, to establish a prophetic connection
to Zechariah's space-age prophecies.
A Jesus followed the parable of the fig tree with a second
parable, the parable of the ten virgins.
B In this parable Christ compared His return in the latter
days to that of a bridegroom coming to his marriage
ceremony.
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten
virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the
bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil
with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and
slept (Mt. 25:1-5).
A The parable's use of the words "wise" and "foolish" refers
only to the conduct of the ten virgins in regard to the
"oil."
1 The "oil" represents God's abundant truth concerning
the gospel of Jesus Christ which is readily available
to men before Christ returns.
2 Five of the virgins were wise and accepted the gospel
of Christ and secured His oil of truth for themselves.
3 The other five were foolish and did not bother to
secure Christ's oil of truth, or make Him a part of
their lives.
B What was the common difficulty confronting all ten
virgins?
1 All ten knew the bridegroom was coming, but no one
knew when He would actually arrive.
2 This has been the case since Christ left His
disciples and returned to heaven over 1,900 years
ago.
3 Christians know Christ said He would return, but they do
not know when He will return.
C How has the typical Christian reacted to the fact that
Christ, "the bridegroom," has "tarried" longer than
expected?
1 Christians have grown weary of trying to sort out the
contradicting opinions concerning the timing of
Christ's return, quit watching, and fallen fast
asleep.
2 Now that modern technology has pulled the whole of
end-times Bible prophecy into focus, Christians need
to wake up and "watch" these prophesied events unfold
so that they will be more effective in reaching
unbelievers for Christ.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the
bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil;
for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not
enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell,
and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and
they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and
the door was shut (Mt. 25:6-10).
A Since the ten virgins knew the bridegroom was coming
before they went to sleep, why did they [and why will
the people in our time] suddenly wake up to one more oft
repeated cry, "Christ is coming," to the extent that
they will rise up with one accord and hastily set about
making last minute preparations for His arrival?
1 The command "go ye out to meet him" provides some
clues to the answer of the question.
a The virgins immediately arose, set about trimming
their lamps, and checked their supply of oil.
b This shows that no one challenged the authority
backing the command.
2 Note also that since not one word is said about who
delivered the cry, the authority driving the action
must be vested in the greater message of the cry.
a That greater message turns out to be the complete
body of prophetic evidence defining when Christ
will return.
b Moreover, according to the greater context of the
parable, the biblical evidence contained within
this late hour cry will speak with such force that
no one will seriously doubt that Christ's return
is even at the doors.
B Once it is understood that, "Behold, the bridegroom
cometh," serves only as a symbolic announcement of the
cry's much larger message, where would be a good place
to begin a search for the full text of the cry?
1 Since the parable's imagery centers around the theme
of people abruptly awakened to new prophetic truth
concerning when Christ will return, it follows that
the cry's full definition of the timing of Christ's
Second Coming will be found in some other prophecy
containing "wake up" imagery.
2 This same imagery is found in Zechariah's "wake up"
introduction (Zech. 4) to his space-age prophecies
foretelling the building of Christ's Church during
the closing days of the technological age.
3 The visible evidence of Zechariah's unfolding
prophecies bears testimony to the truth of the
prophetic cry: "Behold, the bridegroom cometh."
C How does the parable of the fig tree and the parable of
the ten virgins help answer the disciples question:
"Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be
the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
(Mt. 24:3, NASB).
1 The parable of the fig tree uses the imagery of trees
beginning to bud to connect to Zechariah's definition
of the "Sebat generation" which will see Christ
return within their lifetime.
2 The parable of the ten virgins employs the imagery of
sleeping people, suddenly awakened, to define the
approximate time when the "Sebat generation" will
"wake up" to Zechariah's prophetic definition of who
they are and when Christ can be expected to return.
3 Note that the timing of the Sebat generations awaken-
ing, "in the middle of the night," implies that dawn,
and the light of a new age that Christ will establish,
is coming quickly.
4 Thus, Zechariah's full text of the cry "Behold the
bridegroom cometh," will awaken everyone in the Sebat
generation to God's message of the hour--not only the
King is coming, but "when" Christ will return!
5 For the first time, people will know that Christ will
physically return before the Sebat generation passes
from the scene.
D A review of Zechariah's text sharpens the prophetic
objectives of these two parables.
1 According to Zechariah 1, the first manned space
flight "round the Earth" is the first event to look
for in the prophetic fulfillment of these two
parables.
- Soviet cosmonaut, Yuri A. Gagarin, fulfilled this
prophecy on April 12, 1961, when he successfully
circled the globe in the spaceship, Vostok 1.
2 The next event to look for, Israel's second
repossession of Jerusalem, also came to pass
according to Zechariah's prophetic time table.
- Six years after the Soviet's first manned space
flight, the Jews captured Jerusalem during the
1967 Arab-Israeli Six-Day War.
3 Abruptly, Zechariah dropped the subject of space
technology at the end of chapter 1.
4 Then, even as Zechariah covered several other
prophecies before he resumed his space-age "wake up"
narrative--"And the angel that talked with me came
again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of
his sleep" (Zech. 4:1)--so did everyone on planet
Earth continue sleeping for several more years until
Zechariah's space-age "wake up" message was finally
understood.
5 Zechariah's slumbering, unknowing state, parallels
the years the Sebat generation was unaware of the
prophetic significance of the first manned space
flight "round the earth."
6 Thus, at a very late hour the Sebat generation will
"wake up" to who they are and the prophesied fact
that Christ will return to rule the world in their
time.
E What is the meaning of the parable of the ten virgins'
closing warning: "And while they went to buy, the bride-
groom came; and they that were ready went in with him to
the marriage: and the door was shut" (Mt. 25:10, IGENT)?
1 It is a reference to the time of the rapture when
Christ removes the Church.
a There will be no time for preparation afterwards.
b No one else will be admitted into the marriage feast
in heaven.
2 Therefore, it is imperative that Christians wake up
and respond to the urgency of the hour.
3 Even as the virgins should have been awake and watch-
ing events unfold as the bridegroom approached, so
should today's Christians be alert to the signs of
the times.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord,
Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know
you not (Mt. 25:11-12).
13 Watch ye therefore, because ye know not the day nor the
hour (Mt. 25:13, IGENT).
A What is the meaning of the parable of the ten virgins'
closing comment: "Watch ye therefore, because ye know
not the day nor the hour" (Mt. 25:13, IGENT)?
1 It means what it says; no one knows the actual day,
or the hour of the day, when Christ will rescue the
Christians in the event called the rapture.
2 It does not mean Christians will not have a very good
idea as to the general timing of Christ's Return.
3 The definition of the Sebat "shall not pass generation"
proves the point.
B Christ's closing comment, therefore, commands Christians to
strive to win unbelievers to Christ right up to the day and
hour of His Return.
C For He is "not willing that any should perish, but that
all should come to repentance" (II Pet. 3:9).
II Christ emphasized the Sebat generations responsibilities
further in the parable of the talents.
A Note that the parable of the talents follows immediately
after the parable of the ten virgins--(Mt. 25:14-30).
B The simple message of the parable is that Christ expects
every Christian member of the Sebat generation to use
their individual talents to win unbelievers to Christ
during the closing years of the age.
1 Keep in mind that everything Christ said following
His definition of the "shall not pass generation" in
the parable of the fig tree and all the trees, was
addressed explicitly to the Sebat generation.
2 Also keep in mind that the parable of the talents
applied to all Christians down through the centuries,
and was effectively acted upon by many.
C What conclusions can be drawn from the parable's closing
pronouncement about the unprofitable servant, who was
"cast into outer darkness" (Mt. 25:30)?
1 This individual never asked Christ into his life, and
accordingly never had any concern for those around
him who did not know Christ.
2 Predictably this individual was concerned with
hoarding his talents for his own personal welfare.
III What is the primary value of Zechariah's space-age
prophecies?
A Zechariah's high-tech space-age prophecies, written in
ancient times, bear witness to today's advanced civil-
izations that God knew what they would be doing twenty-
five hundred years ago.
B God also knew that it would take the Bible's indisput-
able prophetic oil of truth foretelling the end of the
space age, to wake the Sebat generation up and bring
them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
C In light of the space machines modern man has built
according to God's ancient blueprints:
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new
things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you
of them (Isa. 42:9).
9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God,
and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one
like Me, (Isa. 46:9, NASB).
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient
times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will
stand, and I will do all that I please (Isa. 46:10, NIV).
6 "From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden
things unknown to you.
7 They are created now, and not long ago; you have not
heard of them before today. So you cannot say, 'Yes, I
knew of them' (Isa. 48:6-7, NIV).
D Why would anyone doubt God's plan for saving man's
eternal soul?
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white
as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be
as wool (Isa. 1:18).
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man
hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him,
and will sup with him, and he with me (Rev. 3:20).
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our LORD (Romans 6:23).
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph. 2:8-9).
11 And this is the record, that God has given us eternal
life, and this life is in his son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not
the Son of God hath not life (I John 5:11-12).
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is
none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we
must be saved (Acts 4:12).
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only
begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not
perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).
From the book: "Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy",
by Charles W. Miller, 1990.
Prayerfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Connie,
I would like you to resond to this please. And in your response, I
would like YOUR thoughts...please don't cut and paste someone else's
opinion. Here is the question:
In terms of the book of Revelation what is more important...what you
are presently experiencing or what the 1st century believers
experienced?
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Michael and Danny,
Just because I beleive in the Pre-mil or Pre-trib, view does not make
me a disciple of Hal Lidnesy. I see that it best fits scripture. It
does not ignore the hermeneutic to consider the first century in
context in fact it compliments them. Glen Bourne is a good professor,
with wrong conclusions in my opinion. I have several copies of his
book and several copies of his course sylabi... due to the fact I
took his course while a student at FCC. He freely admits that he
could be wrong in his conclusions- and he is write. I was an
excellent student in that course and I enjoyed it very much. But,
since his course I have done extensive research on my own and have
since rejected his conclusions. I lean quite heavily toward the pre
mil- pre-trib view and state that as my opinion as I teach it to the
church where I serve as Minister/Pastor.
As far as the chip- mark my words- it is not fiction- you will see it
very soon becoming more popular. The FBI and CIA already use it for
servalence and other covert activities. The Secret Service already
taps everyone's phone lines a computer searches for anyone using
(kill and president) in the same sentence. This stuff is not fiction
it is technology that is being used. The chip- whether it is the mark
or not will be implimented soon- it is not fiction.
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Connie,
Greetings from ****. Thanks for trying to protect my integrity (I
guess) by I'm in no danger and have no problem with my name being
tossed about (it wouldn't be the 1st time, nor the last...ha). I have
begun reading "Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy" so I feel more
compelled to begin responding to comments such as what you reposted
here.
1) First, Charles calls Dispensationalism "nonsense" and you say he
takes no part of Hal Lindey's junk - at least he has gotten something
right. That is about all he has right so far. What amazes me is that
while he does not agree with Lindsey, the stuff he writes has a very
distinct "Lindeyism" about them. Since we have been using asterisks
to mask info, I would so far have to say that Chuck's book is pretty
much *^#@&% !
Oh, the factual information about the building of the High Aswan
Dam is pretty cool, I like trivia as much or more than the next
person, but there is no reason to see it as the fulfillment of Isaiah
chapter 19.
So far what I see (and I have no reason to doubt that it
continues throughout the book) is that Miller looks only at today and
not the past. Michael Demastus is absolutely right when he talks
about it being wrong (and a pathetic hermeneutic) to ignore the
context and the lives of the people to whom any prophecy was
originally spoken to. In the entire first chapter, Miller never
speaks of what was happening in Jerusalem and Judah as those words
were being spoken.
You say that Miller is a technician, a computer Geek, (no harm
meant by that). Well, he makes the same mistake that many scientists
make in their research. Do you remember 10 years ago when Oat Bran
was being promoted as a cancer cure-all because of a scientific study?
Then 3 or 4 years later another study came out that said oat bran was
worthless. And then another study came out that was inconclusive -
bran helped some, while doing nothing for others.
All of these studies were very similar in their execution - so
explain the difference in their findings. PREJUDICE was the
difference. Each group found what they WANTED to find in their
research - not necessarily what was actually there. Well, Miller
started with a false assumption and found all prophecy to be in
accordance with his own philsophy.
Here is the false assumption he starts with, taken from page 11
of the book: "Those who find it hard to accept the idea that
centuries-old prophecies explain future events in terms of present-day
inventions should consider the methods Jesus Christ used to teach
spiritual concepts. Jesus repeatedly selected the familiar earthly
objects of that day to better instruct His listeners. During His
ministry, Jesus also answered a number of questions about the events
leading up to the ed of the world. In view of Christ's teaching
style, it is reasonable to assume that He would explain time of the
end events in terms of the unique cultural surroundings of that future
civilization. Those who look will find that Christ's forewarnings
often included descriptions of present-day inventions."
Miller contradicts himself with that statement. If Jesus used
common items of that day to make His point, why would He then suddenly
shift to speaking to them of things they could not possibly
understand? That would be a MAJOR source of confusion to those people
and we know that God is NOT a God of confusion.
That being said, I must then assume that when God gave the
prophecies Miller addresses, they were only for us "advanced" peoples
of today. In other words, God was willing to let the Jews of Isaiah
chapter 19 wander in confusion and doubt while their enemies were
advancing on Jerusalem - just so we could be wary of the High Aswan
Dam. Sorry folks, if that is the best God can do, I'm gonna join the
agnostic on the "God is dead" thread!
2) As far as Miller's condescending remarks on my scholarship
concerning the repeating of "repeat prophecy" and other "worthless"
interpretations - who is he to say that? My interpretations are every
bit as good as his - And at least my interpretations follow accepted,
time-proven Hermeneutical principles - his DO NOT! He seems to make
up his own version of Hermeneutics as he goes along, which amazingly
enough, makes God a God of confusion one more time.
Oh, and who is Miller to make "command level pronouncements
without any supporting facts" when he said I have a "shallow approach
to studying prophecy". My study and research of all things considers
all viewpoints, old and new. Shoot, people at Cape Canaveral pay me
good money for my opinions and research - projects and rocket launches
either proceed or scrub based upon my ability to research and draw
intelligent conclusions. My interpretations are NOT "superficial",
they are my best conclusions based on known fact, historical
prescedent, and accepted procedures.
And finally, Chuck ought to check his facts concerning the Holocaust.
Most all reputable historians have significantly reduced the number
of murdered Jews from the 6.6 million that you quote.
Also he said: "It comes down to people have to be willing to
understand that the time-of-the-end prophecies were absolutely sealed
until our time". Oh Yeah - PROVE IT! How can you positively say that
these prophecies could only be made known between 1970 and 2000? The
Bible does not say that! Why not 2050, or 3000, or 4000, or maybe
70AD?
And Connie, check out the May issue of Popular Mechanics. They have
an article concerning the US defense against Rogue Nukes starting on
page 76 - it should fit right into your studies.
Hey Danny, I got one of those computer chips they are talking about.
I put it in my computer and then overclocked it to see what it would
do......it melted like a Hersey bar on a Smore's, so hold on to that
check book!.........:~).
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Daniel 12:4-9:
4: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to
the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall
be increased.
5: ...
6: ...
7: ...
8: And I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the
end of these things?
9: And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and
sealed 'til the time of the end.
As stated in one of the above posts:
'It comes down to people have to be willing to understand that the
time-of-the-end prophecies were absolutely sealed until our time'.
Everything postulated before the end times has to be re-evaluated, if
we are to understand these prophecies.
Charles Miller has intensely studied this subject for 35 years, and
has also been a computer analyst for that same period of time,
working first at Michigan State University and for many years at
Michigan National Bank as Vice president in charge of Platform
Support.
He is uniquely qualified to understand the Biblical, technical, and
financial information provided.
Respectfully and Prayerfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Michael;
The computer chip "theory" is not theory, it is a fact. You can take
your dog or cat down to the vet TODAY and have one implanted in
them. I was considering it for my pets recently.
People in this forum have been so all-fire concerned (sorry, trying
to talk like my southern brethren) about the evil government
registering their guns. Is it really that great of a leap from there
to registering people? (After all, they did it in Germany.) The
technology exists, it is not science fiction or Lindsayan fantasy
anymore. I am not saying Lindsay was right, nor do I espouse his
views, all I am saying is that if a government wanted to do it, it is
not only possible, it is already being done with animals and is a
proven technology.
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Hi, Mark,
Charles started with NO preconceived notions ~ he simply wanted to
find out what the Scriptures said, with the goal of reaching a
generation of people who thought they knew more than God ~ college
students of the '60s.
Today people will listen to the Gospel more than they would then,
because the presumptions they made then did not turn out the way they
imagined.
He was as incredulous as you seem to be at what he found. He was
looking for a way to reach them and knew God had a way. The Truth of
Scripture will win out against any pre-conceived notions, of which
many are evident.
Respectfully and Prayerfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
AKelley;
Re: "the Secret Service already taps everyone's phone lines" - you
are not far off base here. Ever heard of Project Echelon? This
sounds like science fiction, but it is 100% true. (Do a search for it
on the Internet.) Agencies of the US govt (CIA, NSA, etc.) have been
cooperating with agencies of the British, New Zealand and Australian
governments for years in a global monitoring program. They filter
email, telephone calls, faxes, you name it, for terrorist "buzz
words." They are essentially spying on their citizenry (i.e.
us). This is not much of a secret anymore, even though the US
Gov't officially still denies it (no surprise there). Echelon made
front page of the L.A. Times a month or so ago, and British, New
Zealand and Australian agents have frankly admitted it exists. The
Europeans are considering suits against the U.S. because of
allegations that Echelon is also being used to spy on businesses to
give participating Echelon nations an edge. Along similar lines, the
FBI a week or so ago proposed putting into place its own Echelon-like
civilian surveillance system for monitoring U.S. citizens more
closely.
Big Brother really IS watching you.
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Hi, John,
Yes, our dog and cat each has a chip, because it makes it SO MUCH
EASIER to keep track of them, you know.
It will be the same with us. The Scriptures say this will happen. I
don't understand why anyone who is a Christian doubts it.
And we won't be able to buy or sell without it. It will even seem to
be quite reasonable, and even a good idea. Makes one go: 'H-m-m.'
In Him,
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Yes, John, I've heard of 'Echelon' and also that there really is not
ANYTHING the powers-that-be are not aware of in our lives, already.
They know who has guns and who doesn't, and probably even how many.
In fact, there are certain words which are 'flagged' and which come
up on the computers of TPTB ~ so even this exchange might be
'flagged' because we mentioned 'Echelon' and 'guns'. Interesting
times we live in; but they will become moreso, as time advances.
We should be praying for each other. Also, we should know that the
safest place was in the firey furnace ~ because Jesus was in there,
with them.
In Christ,
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Connie,
I have to disagree with you. You said: "Charles started with NO
preconceived notions ~ he simply wanted to find out what the
Scriptures said, with the goal of reaching a generation of people who
thought they knew more than God ~ college students of the '60s."
If he started out with a goal, he had to start out with preceived
ideas. In this case, he had to confront these student's knowledge
with a superior knowledge of his own; and in the process he found
himself on a different path - a path that leads away from everything
taught and understood by the Bible and toward man-made technology (and
theology). The quote I gave from page 11 shows his willingness to
change Hermeneutical ideals in mid-thought.
Also the idea of reaching people with newer versions of the
Gospel and prophecy predictions is now "old hat" and unproffitable.
Most all people I find coming "back" to church these days are not
looking for something new - they come looking for that "Old Time
Religion". The Baby Boomers have wised up and are now looking for
what Mom & Dad had. Maybe we ought to be spending our time giving
them THAT, instead of giving them missiles and dams and submarines
(oh my).
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
By the way Connie,
I accepted your challenge to read Charles' book. Are willing to
accept the cahallenge I gave you "way back when" to put his stuff down
for awhile and read a book on Hermeneutics?
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Michael:
I am sorry I didn't notice until I read my print-out that you had
asked me a question.
Everything that Is written on this thread by me are my words
exceptfor the long posts ~ Lessons 30 and 37 ~ and the thre personal
notes from Charles.
I will get to your question either very late tonight, or tomorrow.
Right now I have to leave to take care of four lovely grandchildren,
and since my son and his wife are going to Battle Creek from Lansing,
it will be midnight or later before they get home.
Mark:
I haven't read that book yet, because I'm presently reading two and
have three others in the waiting. I will perhaps try to fit that in
before the others, after I finish the one's I've started.
Also, I have several things I have to mail, and Easter to prepare
for, with lots of people coming.
In Him,
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
ones, plural, not one's, possessive.
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Too late... someone has already done a "SSN is the mark of the beast"
book. :P
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
I don't know about using Driver's License numbers - but if they mess
with my revolving account # with Dunkin' Donuts or Baskins & Robbins
Ice Cream - I'm not gonna take it lying down!!
-- Anonymous, April 20, 2000
Hello, All;
I slept from 11 to 1, so I'm wide awake.
First, I'd like to respond to this from Michael Demastus on April
19th:
There is not one Lindsey-ite out there who can show with any
authority from Scripture that we should be so focused on such details
as has been discussed thus far on this forum. The ONLY detail that
the apostle John, or any other NT author, thought was important in
eschatological matters was that we should be ready for it as if it
would be today. Because it will be like a thief in the night. (And
once Jesus comes back...[to quote a cartoon scholar] "that's all
folks." There are no bouncing Jesus themes in Scripture!
-- Michael W. Demastus (demastus@juno.com), April 19, 2000.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Charles Miller discredits most of what Hal Lindsey wrote.
The above sentence was from my earlier response. Charles went to the
Scriptures looking for a way to witness to his unbelieving fellow
students. He didn't read all the theories which had mostly already
been proved wrong anyway because they didn't happen when their
proponents said they would.
Let me repeat: Charles is not a 'Lindseyite' nor am I. If anyone
bases their ideas on Scripture, it might sound similar. Fortunately,
I never read anything of Lindsey's, but apparently some of you have.
There are many things which Charles says are unknown at this time.
he just has a different list than you do; for example, he says he
can't understand anything beyond the fifth seal.
As to the period of time meant, (written about 96 A.D.):
In Revelation 1:7: (FIRST BOOK!)
Lo, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even
those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the Earth shall gaze
upon Him and beat their breasts and mourn and lament over Him. Even
so, [must it be]. Amen, so be it.
Has this happened? I don't THINK so! (I know not).
Chapter 4 starts this way:
4:1: After this I looked, and Lo, a door standing open in heaven!
And the first voice, which I heard addressed to me like [the calling
of] a war trumpet, said Come up here, and I will show you what must
take place in the future. {C.:IN THE FUTURE}
Chapter 5:
5:1: And I saw lying on the open hand of Him Who was seated on the
throne a (book) scroll written within and on the back, closed and
sealed with seven seals.
Except for the paragraph written by Michael, these are my words,
quoted from Scripture. I will always designate what are mine and
what are others'.
Concerning the only detail which John considered important: If that
is so, why did it take him 22 chapters to say it?
It was intended for the whole church age, of which we are near the
end.
Sam: I would like a copy of your teaching notes. I have Works, but
not Word; will mine work?
Brother Daniel:
We need to be ready to die, but we also need to get others ready to
die.
Michael Demastus:
In response to your question of April 20: (All my thoughts and words);
Both are important, but since the 'end-times' portion was written to
us, what we see and experience is of utmost importance.
MarkWhiz:
In the 3rd paragraph down on your April 20th post, concerning the
Aswan High Dam:
He tells about this to show that the Nile will dry up, as
prophesied. He does not just address today, but the whole of history.
I would like to state that Charles' hermeneutic is every bit as good
(and probably better) than the hermeneutic of any of the people you
have mentioned. He has devoted almost 35 years to this study. In
paragraphs 7 and 8 you say that Charles contradicts himself. Not
true. What he says is: "In view of Christ's teaching style, it is
reasonable to assume that He would explain time-of-the-end events in
terms of the unique cultural surroundings of that future
civilization. Those who look will find that Christ's forewarnings
often included descriptions of present-day inventions".
He does not contradict himself. It's completely consistent. John is
speaking to US about things WE can understand. (If we want to).
Further on, under your heading 2):
My response:
Historical hermeneutics did not have the benefit of the knowledge
which has increased. Earlier purveyors of opinions made up their
hermeneutic as they went along. You believe them, and they couldn't
have known, because the books remained sealed.
As to any criticism of your scholarship, you criticized his first,
and he responded as he did. Keep in mind that he has had to deal
with erroneous opinions for a long time. Besides that, I don't think
he said you, except about the 'command level pronouncements'.
Also, the 3rd paragraph down under 2): What is YOUR number of Jews
killed in the Holocaust? I will take the number the Jews give,
because they know who was no longer around when it was all over.
In paragraph 5: Is it really of value, or is that sarcasm ~ that you
rank Charles' extensive scholarship with Popular Mechanics? If it is
rally valuable, I might get it.
In your post of April 20, referring to Charles' not starting out with
preconceived ideas ~ his goal was to reach people with the Gospel,
and the methods he had been using were not working, so he started
from square one with no preconceptions, no matter what others might
say, and his search led straight to the heart of God, not away from
Him. He is not changing from any style of hermeneutics to another in
any way. I feel you misunderstood what he said.
He was not trying to come up with anything new for the sake of its
being new; he was merely seeking what God wants us to know.
Shut your eyes as tightly as you want; God's word will prevail.
Prayerfully and respectfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Connie:
I do not intend to argue here the points you and others are arguing.
I DO intend to point to a major flaw in your argument that has little
to do with the argument.
One of the foundational reasons, it appears from what you write, for
accepting what Miller has written is that "he has been studying this
for 35 years". You bring this up quite often.
Good for him (truly, I mean that). Would that we all could say the
same.
But the length of time spent studying the subject is NOT a strong
supporting argument in ANYthing. Men and women have spent longer
than 35 years studying many subjects, and still get it wrong, for one
reason or another. For instance, Arnold Murray has been studying Old
and New Testament for roughly 50 years, yet he still thinks that the
original sin was that Eve had sex with Satan and birthed Cain, and
that black people and Jews are only half-human at best. And he gets
this from the Scriptures.
Length of time at study is admirable, but far from a convincing
argument.
I'll zip up the notes for you. They should work fine in Works. In
fact. I'll save them to Works format first, to make sure. You DO
have un-Zipping abilities? just checking. most but not all do.
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Ok Connie,
Just a few comments:
1) You said: "I would like to state that Charles' hermeneutic is every
bit as good (and probably better) than the hermeneutic of any of the
people you have mentioned. He has devoted almost 35 years to this
study."
Ditto to what Sam wrote (thanks brother Sam). Accepted Hermeneutical
processes have been in place for centuries. They are time-tested and
historically accurate. 35 years is a drop in the bucket.
2) You said: "What he says is: "In view of Christ's teaching style, it
is reasonable to assume that He would explain time-of-the-end events
in terms of the unique cultural surroundings of that future
civilization. Those who look will find that Christ's forewarnings
often included descriptions of present-day inventions". He does
not contradict himself. It's completely consistent. John is speaking
to US about things WE can understand. (If we want to). "
Again, if this is true, why did Jesus (and all the prophets) go about
wasting people's time with things they could not possibly understand -
this makes absolutely no sense. With this line of thinking, God would
have had to wait until NOW to speak of 20th century things. But
unfortunately, the Canon is closed and we no longer have continuing
revelation, so that is not an option. Therefore, God must have been
speaking something understandable to the people of that day.
3) You said: "Historical hermeneutics did not have the benefit of the
knowledge which has increased. Earlier purveyors of opinions made up
their hermeneutic as they went along. You believe them, and they
couldn't have known, because the books remained sealed."
I have 2 responses to this:
a) As far as anyone knows, the books remain sealed even unto this day
- if not, prove it! Where does the Bible say that they have been
opened? That is a rhetorical question by the way, because you can't
answer it. There is nothing in the scripture to support their being
opened in this day.
b) I think maybe you and Chuck do not understand what Hermeneutics is.
If Hermeneutics was a series of interpretations that are "signed,
sealed, & delivered", then your statement above would be true. But
that is not what Hermeneutics is. It is a science, the study of
Biblical interpretation. It is a set of time-tested rules and
processes that lead one in their efforts in understanding ANY
Scripture. It does not provide interpretations, just rules for coming
to interpretations that are consistent with all of the Scriptures.
4) You asked: "What is YOUR number of Jews killed in the Holocaust? I
will take the number the Jews give, because they know who was no
longer around when it was all over."
In my research I have seen numbers that range from 1 to 12 million and
I have to figure that the truth is in there somewhere. But those
numbers have to be kept in perspective because large numbers of the
people who were killed were not Jews. Hitler wanted the Poles wiped
out and gave orders to make it so - therefore I lost a lot of Polish
ancestors in the process who were Catholic - not Jewish. But my
original point in mentioning the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD was ignored
in this dialogue. That fulfilled what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 -
all except for verse 29 & beyond. It was Rome that destroyed the
temple so that not one stone lay on top of another - it wasn't Hitler.
Also, when researching things like the Holocaust, NEVER use the
numbers provided by the persecuted people nor those of the persecutor
- both are prejudiced and will be biased toward their own purposes,
seek neutral parties for accuracy.
5) You asked: "Is it really of value, or is that sarcasm ~ that you
rank Charles' extensive scholarship with Popular Mechanics? If it is
rally valuable, I might get it."
Yes, it was partially sarcastic. Although, PM's articles usually
employ quite a bit of research so their technological aspects are
usually quite accurate. In fact, as I think about it, I have to
figure I have learned a lot more useful information from the magazine
than I have so far from Charles' book.
6) And finally, you said: "his goal was to reach people with the
Gospel, and the methods he had been using were not working, so he
started from square one with no preconceptions, no matter what others
might say, and his search led straight to the heart of God, not away
from Him."
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it. If a person has a goal, he must
develop a plan in which to achieve that goal - otherwise the goal has
no value. To me, it sounds like Charles just got carried away by
modern technology and would then only approach Scripture from that
standpoint - forgetting the context in which these prophecies were
written and the plight of the people they were written to. One does
not correctly interpret Scripture from atop a nuclear missile or from
a laptop computer. One interprets Scripture be displacing himself
into the mind of a worried and frightened Christian of 2000 years ago
or into the mind of a Jew who (with his nation) was falling headlong
into disaster 2500 - 3000 years ago.
By the way, you said his previous methods were not working - what
methods was he using? Maybe he should have looked to the Bible for
the proper method.
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17
"And how shall they hear without a preacher?" Romans 10:14
"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God unto
salvation" Romans 1:16
It is by the foolishness of preaching, that men are saved.
This is where I have a problem with this book (and all those like it).
If you are attracting people to church because of a book, or program,
or a specific teaching - what are you winning them to? Too many years
of experience have proven the old saying true: "what you win them
with, is what you win them to". The bookstores are full of these type
of books, but there are precious few on the matters that actually
matter. I could really care less about your or anyone's view of the
End Times - because it doesn't matter. What happens, happens - it is
just up to me to make sure that myself and as many as I can reach are
on God's side when the curtain falls. I am just worried about those
who are lead off of the "beaten track" by such as this.
We will never agree on this issue, and that hasn't caused me to lose
any sleep. When all is said and done and the End is finished, let's
compare notes then. I'll promise to say, "I told you so" if I was
right as long as you promise to do the same to me if you prove
to be correct........Ha.
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Sam,
I agree, length of time of study is not a valid criteria, but seeking
God's will is.
I can see where you may not accept Charles' word, but just place it
against what the Scripture says, if you are so led.
I'm not sure if I have an 'unzipping' feature or not. I have heard
that term, but don't know exactly what it is. So that when you put
it in 'Works', you may also have to tell me how to get at it. Can't
you just type it or whatever (copy it, if you already have it typed)
and put it in a draft folder, paste it to one of the threads and
forward it that way? Just a thought.
I want to respect each of you and would like respect, but not
agreement, from each of you. The earlier scholarship, if put to the
same rigorous test which you SHOULD put Charles' work to, might fall
short. IMHO.
Thank you.
Remembering what our Lord and Savior did for us,
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Connie,
What you fail to see (in your incessant search for "signs" of the
end) is that Jesus said only one sign is needed and that sign has
already been given! If you search after signs then Christ said your
part of an evil generation...that's pretty blunt.
If you live like Christ could come back right now...even interrupting
my typing, then you've got the main point of the eschatology of John
and Paul (by the way they are much better authorities than your
Miller). BUT...the problem is your eschatology limits God. You
believe that certain events MUST take place before Christ can come
back (i.e., the temple being rebuilt, Israel's national status being
restored), but the Bible says no such thing. The Bible says that when
He comes... no one will know when, not the angels, not Van Impe, not
your Miller, not even Jesus, but only the FATHER. And his coming will
be like a thief, it will startle us, it will be unexpected.
You prophecy mongers blaspheme God's Word by sign-seeking and
arrogantly ignoring the historical context of the original prophecy.
The only important message of prophecy left for us is that Christ is
coming back some day...live like that day is today!
But your Christ is a bouncing Christ, he will come back numerous
times and reign for literal periods here on this fallen planet (I'm
sure that's what He really wants after having been here once
already!). Some go first and then some go later. This happens, that
happens. Watch out China,(used to be Russia) is coming! Armegeddon,
Gog and Magog. Red Moon, big Dragon, lots and lots of literal
interpretation that amounts up to complete and total NONSENSE!
What is so bothersome to me about pre-millenialists is the arbitrary
hermeneutical approach they take at applying what is to be
interpreted literally and what should be seen as symbolic. We have a
literal 1,000 year reign, but a symbolic 144,000. We have a literal
mark of the beast, but a symbolic dragon. Go figure!
Danny...Send me a copy of your book when you're through!
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Michael:
I wasn't 'looking for a sign' ~ this was given to me by God. A year
ago, I was as distrusting of end-times prophecy as you are now. I
still say that if that was the only message of Revelation: 'Watch and
Wait and Pray' (which we are also to do) it wouldn't have taken 22
chapters to say it. One Quarter of the Scriptures are devoted to
prophecy ~ much of it end-times.
I never read any of the books put out by the various end-times
prognosticators. Apparently, you have.
Charles is not making any money on his book. Each one he sells costs
him .26 plus shipping from the binder. It costs 5.26 to produce and
he sells it for 5.00 in his classes. He pays the shipping costs for
the large quantities shipped to him. Over the 'Net it costs 10.00,
which includes shipping.
Everything in the book is on the 'Net for free, in the Lessons.
It is NOT a money-making venture. My sister and her husband write
and publish books, so I know what they cost to produce.
I detect fear in the responses of people ~ fear to receive all of
what God has for us, thinking it is from satan instead of God. I can
understand and sympathize. Of course, we are to test the spirits ~
whether they be of God.
We DO need to be on guard against satan's wiles, because he is
clever, but Charles' message is completely from Scripture and God.
I pray that you will allow the Spirit to teach you, but if you don't
~ fine. Eventually you will not be able to deny it.
In remembrance of what He has done for us.
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Michael:
In the 4th paragraph in your last post to me, you mention Russia. Of
course Russia is involved, also. Another evil entity.
The following is Lesson 10 from the series I have been showing you:
TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY
Lesson 10: Ezekiel's prophetic portrait of a Russian invasion of
Israel is compared to recent Middle East developments that may set
the stage for the start of this war.
I Ezek. 38:1-4 states that God is against what "Gog, the land
of Magog," will decide to do sometime in the future.
1 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog,
the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against
him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; behold, I am against
thee, O Gog, the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal
(Ezek. 38:1-3):
A Gog is the ruler of the land of Magog. Gen. 10 names
Magog, Tubal, and Meshech as sons of Japheth, who was
Noah's third son.
B History shows that the tribes of Magog, Tubal, and
Meshech settled in the area now called Russia.
C Most scholars agree that this prophecy is addressed to
the ruling politburo--"Gog," of Russia--"the land of
Magog."
4 And I will turn you about, and put hooks into your jaws,
and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and
horsemen, all of them splendidly attired, with buckler and
shield, all of them wielding swords (Ezek. 38:4, NASB).
A Russia's mobilization of a well-equipped army for a
future invasion is identified here as the reason for
God's concern.
B (Beginning in verse 8, Israel is named as the country that
the Russian-led army will invade.)
C The statement, "And I will turn you about, and put hooks
into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your
army," explains why Russia will invade Israel.
D Ezekiel used this same language in a previous prophecy that
foretold the fall of Israel and Egypt to the invading
Babylonian armies.
4 But I will put hooks in your jaws and make the fish of
your stream stick to your scales. I will pull you out from
among your streams, with all the fish sticking to your
scales.
19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am
going to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and
he will carry off its wealth. He will loot and plunder the
land as pay for his army (Ezek. 29:4,19, NIV).
A The "hooks" in Pharaoh's jaws refer to Egypt's pledge of
military support for Israel and other small nations in the
region, against the invading Babylonians.
B Pharaoh's pledge resulted in Egypt being pulled out of
the safety of the Nile valley where she was decisively
defeated along with the smaller nations ("fish sticking
to Egypt's scales") in the area, including Israel.
C By prophetic precedent, the hooks that will be put in
the Russians' jaws will be forged in the form of Russian
friendship treaties with other nations (both military
and economic), that will prompt Russia to come to their
aid in the face, or aftermath of a future war.
D Examples of "hooks" that may influence Russia to come to
the aid of Israel's enemies in the future include:
1 A treaty signed in 1980 by the Soviets and Syria
pledged Soviet military assistance in the event that
Syria becomes engaged in battle with Israel on the
Golan Heights. (Since the break-up of the Soviet
Union, Russia honors past Soviet treaties.)
2 Arms sales to various Arab states represent one of
Russia's few remaining opportunities to earn badly
needed foreign exchange.
- Refusal to respond to Arab requests for military help
in a future Arab-Israeli crisis could jeopardize
Russian-Arab arms agreements.
3 The Iraq-Kuwait Gulf War established the precedent
setting procedure whereby the United Nations sanctioned
an international army to reestablish the sovereignty of
conquered Kuwait.
- The Russians and Arabs could use this procedure to
force Israel off of Arab territory captured by Israel
in a future Arab-Israeli war.
4 The Iraq-Kuwait War also broke new ground on paying
for wars, when wealthy Arab, European nations, and
Japan paid the United States billions for bearing the
brunt of the fighting.
a Arabs paid $430 billion to free Kuwait.
b Oil-rich Arab states could use their billions to
entice destitute Russia to champion a future Arab war
against Israel.
5 Note that this prophecy does not define what events
will precede the Russian' decision to invade Israel,
only that "hooks"--binding military and commercial
treaties that came out of the Russians' jaws--will
persuade them to invade Israel.
6 Note also that for 72 years Russia looked outward for
opportunities to extend their influence over other
nations, but since mid-1989 Russia has looked inward on
how to solve their economic problems.
E A future dispute between Israel and Syria over Yarmuk
river waters that flow into the Jordan river, could lead
to a war that might, in turn, bring Russia into the
Middle East. This possibility is based on the following
facts:
1 The Yarmuk supplies 40 to 50 percent of the Jordan
river's water that Israel depends on for irrigation.
2 Syria attempted to build a Yarmuk river dam twice
in the past. (Israel bombed both before they were
completed--one in the 1960s and one in the 1970s.)
3 Syria and Jordan selected another site for the Unity dam
in the 1980s but Israeli lobbyists persuaded the World
Bank to reject Syria's request for a loan.
4 Jordan built the East Ghor (King Abdullah) canal parallel
to the Jordan river and Syria built 20 small diversion
dams on sources of the Yarmuk to help alleviate their
respective water needs.
5 On Oct. 26. 1994, Israel signed a peace treaty with
Jordan that included the following water-
sharing
agreements.
a Israel will supply Jordan with around 50m cubic meters
of water from the Yarmuk in summer, representing flood
water which Jordan cannot store in winter owing to
lack of storage capacity.
b Jordan will receive another 50m cubic meters of water
through dams the two countries agreed to build on the
Yarmuk and Jordan rivers, along with a desalination
plant on Lake Kinneret (the Sea of Galilee).
6 Israel is also considering building canals to the Dead
Sea, either from the Red Sea (the Red-Dead project), or
from the Mediterranean, at a cost of 3.5 to 4 billion
dollars, which would generate electricity to desalinate
400m cubic meters of water a year for Jordan and Israel.
7 These water-sharing schemes look promising, but no
projects have started to date, due to lack of funding.
8 Although the current water-sharing schemes help
support
the present peace in the Middle East, Zech. 10:10-11
points to future confrontation between Israel and her
Arab neighbors:
10 "I will bring them back from the land of Egypt,
And gather them from Assyria; And I will bring them
into the land of Gilead and Lebanon, Until no room
can be found for them.
11 "And He will pass through the sea of distress, And
strike the waves in the sea, So that all the depths
of the Nile will dry up . . . (NASB).
a The Jews have already returned from Egypt and
Assyria.
b The Israeli Defense Force controls southern
Lebanon today, but the Jews do not live there.
c In modern times Israel has never controlled any
portion of ancient Gilead.
- Since the Yarmuk river is the boundary between
Syria to the north, and Jordan to the south,
today's Jews could only migrate to the land of
Gilead, "Until no room can be found for them," if
Jordan invited them--a highly unlikely possibility.
- Much more probable, Israel will take the Yarmuk
river area, including Jordanian Gilead, in a war,
possibly over Yarmuk water.
d Since Isaiah said the Nile would dry up before
Christ Returns (Isa. 11), and since the Jews move
into Gilead and Lebanon is listed here before
the
prediction that "the depths of the Nile will dry
up,"
it is clear that the Jews will move into Gilead
and
Lebanon before Christ returns.
- Whether or not a Syrian-Israeli dispute
over
Yarmuk river water will lead to a Russian invasion
of Israel, awaits tomorrow's developments.
- In the meantime, Yarmuk water-sharing
agreements
between Israel and her neighbors, bear watching.
II Ezek. 38: 5-7 names the nations that will be allied with
Russia.
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with
shield and helmet:
6 Gomer and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the
north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with
thee (Ezek. 38:5-6).
A Persia, Iran today, along with Ethiopia and Libya will
be the first nations to join Russia's invasion force.
- Christians can point this fact out to unbelievers the
day, in the near future, when this occurs.
B Genesis 10 names Gomer as the first son of Japheth.
1 Ashkenaz and Togarmah were two of Gomer's sons.
2 "Gomer and all his bands," refers to Germany and
other
European countries along the Danube and Rhine rivers
which Gomer's northward migrating descendants settled.
3 Togarmah, Armenia today, and many other unnamed people
will join the Russians, just as many nations joined
forces with America to liberate Kuwait in 1990-91.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all
thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a
guard unto them (Ezek. 38:7).
- Russia will use overwhelming military might to guard her
allies, yet they will suffer a major defeat in the war.
III Ezek. 38: 8 states that Israel must be more powerful than
her neighbors before this invasion can occur.
8 After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years
you will come into the land that is restored from the sword,
whose inhabitants have been gathered from many nations to
the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste;
but its people were brought out from the nations, and they
are living securely, all of them (Ezek. 38:8, NASB).
A The timing of the Russian invasion is set in the "latter
years"--defined here as the days when the Jews would
return from the various nations of their dispersion to
their ancient homeland.
B And "all" the Jews must be "living securely" before
Russia invades.
1 Israel secured its last exposed border in 1982 when
the
IDF established a 25-mile buffer zone in
southern
Lebanon.
2 Since then Israel has not had to fear a surprise
attack
from a superior Arab invasion force.
IV Ezek. 38:9 describes a massive airlift of troops and
equipment, supporting the invasion force on the ground.
9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be
like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands,
and many people with thee (Ezek. 38:9).
V Ezek. 38:10-13 identifies Russia's "hidden agenda," visions
of booty.
10 "Thus says the Lord God, "it will come about on that
day, that thoughts will come into your mind, and you will
devise an evil plan,
11 and you will say, 'I will go up against the land of
unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at
rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls,
and having no bars or gates;
12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand
against the waste places which are now inhabited, and
against the people who are gathered out of the nations, who
have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of
the world' (Ezek. 38:10-12, NASB).
A Russia "will devise an evil plan to seize plunder" from
the Israelis "who live at the center of the world."
B If Russia conquered Israel, no one could stop her army
from devouring the Middle East and controlling its vast
oil reserves--70% of the world's known reserves.
C Russia not only needs outside oil to meet her own
requirements, but could use Middle East oil to wrest
advantageous trade agreements from other nations.
13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with
all its villages, will say to you, 'Have you come to
capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize
plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle
and goods, to capture great spoil?'" (Ezek. 38:13, NASB).
- "Sheba and Dedan," Saudi Arabia and Oman today, and the
"merchants of Tarshish"--Phoenician name for the British
Isles (Britannia, the land of tin, where Phoenicians
obtained tin)--will see through Russia's scheme and
protest strongly, but diplomatic efforts will fail.
VI Ezek. 38: 14-15 emphasizes Israel's secure position and
Russia's overwhelming force.
14 "Therefore, prophesy, son of man, and say to Gog, 'Thus
says the Lord God, "On that day when my people Israel are
living securely, will you not know it?
15 "And you will come from your place out of the remote
parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of
them riding on horses, a great assembly and a mighty army;
(Ezek. 38:14-15, NASB).
A Why is the rhetorical question, "On that day when my
people Israel are living securely, will you not know
it?" inserted here?
- The question in essence states that on the day that
Israel is "living securely" from a surprise attack from
her Arab neighbors, and Russia is assembling a massive
invasion force, you will know the fulfillment of
Ezekiel's prophecy is even at the door.
B Ezekiel described Russia's modern mechanized forces as
"all of them riding on horses," simply because he saw
men riding the vehicles in the same way men rode horses
into battle in his day.
VII Ezek. 38: 16-23 spells out the massive size of Russia's
army and God's distinct intervention on Israel's behalf.
16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a
cloud to cover the land. It will come about in the last
days that I shall bring you against My land, in order that
the nations may know Me when I shall be sanctified through
you before their eyes, O Gog."
17 'Thus says the Lord God, "Are you the one of whom I
spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of
Israel, who prophesied in those days for many years that I
would bring you against them? (Ezek. 38:16-17, NASB).
A Why is the overwhelming size of the Russian-led army
described for the third time here?
1 To emphasize the point that Israel will be alone; no
other nation will be able to stop Russia's army.
2 According to the text, God will use Ezekiel's
prophecy spelling out Israel's unique rescue from the
massive, Russian-led invasion "in order that the
nations may know Me when I shall be sanctified
through you before their eyes, O Gog."
B Why does the text say "I (God) shall bring you (Russia)
against my land" when the Russian leadership will
actually make this decision?
- It is equivalent to saying the Russian invasion will
come to pass according to the prophetic Word of God.
18 "And it will come about on that day, when Gog comes
against the land of Israel," declares the Lord God, "that
My fury will mount up in My anger.
19 "And in My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare that
on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the
land of Israel.
20 "And the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the
beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on
the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth
will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be
thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse, and every
wall will fall to the ground (Ezek. 38:18-20, NASB).
- A great earthquake will begin the destruction of Russia's
confederated army.
21 "And I shall call for a sword against him on all My
mountains," declares the Lord God. "Every man's sword will
be against his brother (Ezek. 38:21, NASB).
A The earthquake will create confusion "on all My
mountains."
B The terrified "brothers" in the international force will
then open fire on one another.
22 "And with pestilence and with blood I shall enter into
judgment with him; and I shall rain on him, and on his
troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a
torrential rain, with hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 "And I shall magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make
Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will
know that I am the Lord"' (Ezek. 38:22-23, NASB).
A Large numbers of the Russian-led invasion force will die
from infectious plagues.
B Far more will die from the effects of the torrential
rain.
1 The hailstones and fire describe the killing effects of
radioactive hail and fire from atomic blasts.
2 Brimstone, or burning sulfur, a component of gunpowder,
describes the killing effects of conventional weapons.
3 (Support for this position will be established in a
later lesson.)
From the book: 'Today's Technology on Bible Prophecy', by Charles W.
Miller; Pub. 1990.
Respectfully and prayerfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, April 21, 2000
Connie,
I have no fear (as you assert) of end-time prophecy...as a matter of
fact I embrace it. What you have been spewing forth is bunked
sensationalism, NOT end-time prophecy.
Who are you to question how long a book of the Bible should or should
not be anyway? Do you know what the term apocryphal literature genre
refers to? Do you understand the dynamics of trying to communicate a
message to a people about someone that you are being held captive by
and not having your captors know of whom you speak?
None of these things interest you pre-millennialists because you're
too busy applying the bulk of the message of Revelation to yourself.
Why would God use a man to write to a group of people about something
that had nothing to do with them? God used John to write to the 1st
century audience and secondarily we receive some import from that
encouraging letter he sent.
A letter that basically conveys that we need to watch our walk, that
we need to be faithful in all circumstances, that God is always
sovereignly in control and that one day He will come back.
This message has no more to do with Russia than you do with serious
Bible study! Join the ranks Connie, your Miller is no different than
the others who have trumpeted the same pre-millennial garbage. More
concerned with signs than the Son, more concerned with the details
than the Divine Author.
-- Anonymous, April 22, 2000
Sorry, Michael.
Charles' main concern is getting this generation to know the Son AND
the Divine Author.
-- Anonymous, April 22, 2000
Michael:
I did not question or critique the length of Revelation; I just said
I didn't think God would need to take 22 chapters to tell us just to
'watch and pray'. I think you put that interpretation on my words.
If it upsets you so much, just don't read it.
I want to emphasize one portion, however:
'7 These water-sharing schemes look promising, but no projects have
started to date, due to lack of funding.
8 Although the current water-sharing schemes help support the present
peace in the Middle East, Zech. 10:10-11 points to future
confrontation between Israel and her Arab neighbors:
10 "I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, And gather them
from Assyria; And I will bring them into the land of Gilead and
Lebanon, Until no room can be found for them. 11 "And He will pass
through the sea of distress, And strike the waves in the sea, So that
all the depths of the Nile will dry up . . . (NASB).
a The Jews have already returned from Egypt and Assyria.
b The Israeli Defense Force controls southern Lebanon today, but the
Jews do not live there.
c In modern times Israel has never controlled any portion of ancient
Gilead.
- Since the Yarmuk river is the boundary between Syria to the north,
and Jordan to the south, today's Jews could only migrate to the land
of Gilead, "Until no room can be found for them," if Jordan invited
them--a highly unlikely possibility.
- Much more probable, Israel will take the Yarmuk river area,
including Jordanian Gilead, in a war, possibly over Yarmuk water.
d Since Isaiah said the Nile would dry up before Christ Returns (Isa.
11), and since the Jews' move into Gilead and Lebanon is listed here
before the prediction that "the depths of the Nile will dry up," it
is clear that the Jews will move into Gilead and Lebanon before
Christ returns.
- Whether or not a Syrian-Israeli dispute over Yarmuk river water
will lead to a Russian invasion of Israel, awaits tomorrow's
developments.
- In the meantime, Yarmuk water-sharing agreements between Israel and
her neighbors, bear watching'.
Charles said the next major prophecy to be fulfilled is that Israel
will enlarge her borders. Each time the Arabs have attacked Israel
in this century, her borders have been enlarged. Now, the forces
involved in the Middle East (including the USA) want Israel to give
back what she took in a war which was waged on her. She needs the
land she has, plus more, to protect her people. If Syria or Lebanon
or any other country attacks, they will lose more land.
Every Israeli leader has been pressured to negotiate and give up
land, and they all say they will, but don't ~ even Barak, hand-picked
and elected with the help of Clinton's emissary, James Carville.
This isn't to say that Israel will not give back land, but if she
does, there will have to be another war to take it back again,
because God promised the land to Israel.
The way we know whether the prophecies were for then or now, are by
whether they have happened yet. Has the Nile dried up yet? NO. The
reason Charles relates what has happened with the Aswan High Dam, is
because it is vital to understanding what has happened and what will
happen. The building of the dam is actually destroying the
environment in Egypt, instead of improving it.
Jacques Cousteau's 'Second Odyssey on the Nile' proves this.
The moving of the idols was prophesied, and that has happened in this
century. (January 1, 2001 is the actual beginning of the new century).
This is getting long and it is getting late, so I must stop.
In Christ (and He in me),
-- Anonymous, April 22, 2000
Danny, as opposed to non-refreshing, of those who feel that those who
take the historical view are not so proper in their understanding.
-- Anonymous, April 24, 2000
AKelley...
Don't worry, the truth usually rubs those who don't believe it the
wrong way! If you would put down Lindsey and turn off Van Impe and
merely pick up your Bible you might be able to see how ridiculous Pre-
Millennialism is.
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY
Lesson 38: The decline of the last beast's seven heads, the ten
horns' rise to prominence, and the beast's relationship with Mystery
Babylon, tomorrow's world capital.
I The vision of a woman sitting on a scarlet beast.
1 And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came
and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I shall show you the
judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,
2 with whom the kings of the earth committed acts of
immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made
drunk with the wine of her immorality."
3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness;
and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of
blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and
adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in
her hand a gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean
things of her immorality, (Rev. 17:1-4, NASB).
A The meaning of the imagery of "the judgment of the great
harlot who sits on many waters."
1 The harlot represents the international government's
capital city.
2 The imagery of "many waters" stands for the world's
people that Mystery Babylon will control through the
new religious order and the computerized international
financial system.
3 The city's relationship with the world government is
depicted here as a woman sitting on a seven-headed,
ten-horned, "scarlet"-colored beast.
4 In other words, the nations that will set up
tomorrow's international government will support the
cost of running the capital city.
B What does the color scarlet or red reveal?
1 Scarlet identifies Red China's hand in molding the
international government's bureaucratic machinery
into a murderous tool of oppression.
2 Once in place, the Chinese will use the ruthless
institutions of the world government to dominate and
control the nations.
C How do we know that this is the correct interpretation
of the color red?
- From the authority of John's initial introduction of
the Fourth Beast: "And the dragon gave to it the
power of it and the throne of it and great authority"
(Rev. 13:2, IGENT).
D How do recent developments in China conform to the
Revelation's forewarning that Red China's hard-line
communist policies will eventually come to dominate the
governing character of the Fourth Beast?
1 In recent years Red China has acknowledged the
failure of its communist economic policies and rushed
to embrace free-market practices.
2 During the same period of economic change, however,
the Communist Party's firm central political control
over the people has remained absolute.
a Authorities still watch, program and keep a
detailed dossier on each Chinese citizen.
b All dissent is simply liquidated.
c Such was the case in 1989 when the Red Army
brutally crushed the democracy movement in
Tiananmen Square.
3 According to the imagery of the last beast's scarlet
color, hard-line communists will ultimately prevail
over any future Chinese democracy movements, and they
will also eventually succeed in shaping the character
of the governing institutions of the Fourth Beast.
E What does the imagery of the harlot "having in her hand a
gold cup full of abominations and of the unclean things of
her immorality represent?"
1 It shows that this religious capital city will
enrich itself through the instruments of treachery,
oppression, murder, and other acts of abomination.
2 For example, Christians who will not be able to buy
or sell, will lose their property and other assets to
the international government.
3 The imagery suggests that the Fourth Beast will
finance its murderous operation, in part, through
the sale of confiscated goods and other assets
taken from undesireables such as Christians.
F What pretext might the international government use to
justify its persecution of the world's Christians?
- The idea that Christian dissent against the new world
secular and religious order could stir up unrest that
would lead to another devastating nuclear conflict.
5 And upon her forehead a name was written, a mystery,
"BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints,
and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And when I
saw her, I wondered greatly (Rev. 17:5-6, NASB).
A The Apostle John wondered why the mysterious name,
"Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and of the
abominations of the earth," was written on the harlot's
forehead.
B A history of ancient Babylon's origin, found in the
writings of the Jewish historian, Josephus, provides
some insight into this mystery.
1 Josephus noted that after the great flood the sons of
Noah settled in the plain of Shinar.
2 Although God had instructed them to spread abroad,
one of Noah's great-grandsons, Nimrod, led a
rebellion against God's instruction and persuaded the
people to build a tower and the city called Babylon.
3 According to Josephus, Nimrod's goal was to bring
everyone under his control for the purpose of
enhancing his own personal power and importance.
4 Although Nimrod's plan got off to a good start,
Gen. 11 reports that the rebellious kingdom was
destroyed when God stepped in and confounded the
peoples' language and so scattered its inhabitants
abroad.
C According to Daniel, another great kingdom of Babylon
was built by Nebuchadnezzar about 1600 years later.
1 Nebuchadnezzar, like Nimrod, led a rebellion against
God, set up a false religion, and attempted to
conquer and control all the people on the earth.
2 Despite Nubuchadnezzar's best efforts, he also failed
to conquer and control all the earth's people, and
his kingdom and its false religion came to an end.
D According to Bible prophecy, how will the city of
Babylon that will rule the world at the end of the
nuclear age, be patterned after the previous two
kingdoms of Babylon?
1 The last Babylon will have as its central objective
the control of all the earth's people.
2 It will lead a rebellion against God.
3 It will set up a false religion complete with a
life-like image for people to worship.
E Since the last Babylon will be the third Babylon to come
to world prominence, why is it called "the mother of
harlots?"
1 The prophetic facts show that whereas the first two
Babylons eventually failed in their bid to rule over
all the people on the earth, the last Babylon will
successfully accomplish this feat for three-and-one-
half years.
2 Note further that the Babylon of Nebuchadnezzar's day
had to rely on informers to enforce the commandment
to bow down and worship the golden image, while the
last Babylon will have a world-wide, satellite-linked,
computer-based banking system to enforce the worship
of its lifelike image.
3 Clearly, the first two Babylons were mere children
compared to the last, "Babylon the Great," when it
comes to creating a false religion and enforcing a
worldwide rebellion against God.
4 Interestingly, before U.S.-led coalition forces
engaged Iraq's army in the 1991 fight for Kuwait,
Saddam Hussein used the expression "The Mother of all
Battles" to warn the allies that if war broke out the
ensuing conflict would dwarf all previous battles.
II The mysterious imagery explained in terms of the beast's
rise to power and its relationships between the woman, the
seven heads, and the ten horns.
7 And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I shall
tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that
carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns
(Rev. 17:7, NASB).
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall
ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:
and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names
were not written in the book of life from the foundation of
the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not,
and yet is (Rev. 17:8).
A How does the statement "and [the beast] shall ascend out
of the bottomless pit" provide the key to understanding
this verse?
1 "Bottomless pit" (abyss in the Greek), refers to the
period of unprecedented chaos that will follow
AWWI--(first defined in the Fifth Trumpet prophecy).
2 The statement establishes the prophetic fact that
the coalitions of powers represented by seven heads
and ten horns "was"--in other words, they will exist
before AWWI takes place.
B John was also told that the beast will cease to exist
("and is not") immediately following the destruction of
one-third of the earth by that atomic war, to the extent
that international institutions will cease to function.
C Then, "out of the bottomless pit," or post-AWWI ashes, a
new set of binding agreements between nations will be
formed, or revived, which will be similar to the
international alliances that existed before the atomic
war occurred.
D The text's closing proclamation states that the nations'
powerful world government will end up failing completely
and "go to destruction" (IGENT).
E The passage also teaches that while the world's unbe-
lievers will wonder after the "beast" and blindly
follow it "to destruction," the world's Christian
community, whose names are written in the Lamb's book of
life, will not render homage to it.
F In summary, the imagery reveals that these coalitions of
nations will establish a cohesive power-sharing arrange-
ment with each other and the "woman" after the war.
9 Here is the mind having wisdom. The seven heads are seven
mountains, where the woman sits on them, and are seven kings:
(Rev. 17:9) IGENT.
A The seven heads are identified here as "seven mountains,"
which "are seven kings," or countries.
B The symbolic statement that "The seven heads are seven
mountains, where the woman sits on them," shows that
these seven countries will underwrite Babylon's initial
construction costs and the development of a computerized
international financial system.
10 The five fell, the one is, the other not yet come, and
whenever he comes it behoves him to remain a little while
(Rev. 17:10, IGENT).
A Since the central theme of this prophecy is the impact
AWWI will have on the international balance of power, it
follows that "the five fell" refers to the prostrate
condition of five of these seven heads/nations, immediately
after AWWI.
B The imagery states that a sixth will be relatively
unscathed by the war and in a position of strength.
C The seventh head/country will rise to a position of
prominence when a charismatic leader gains control of
that country, at some point following the atomic war.
D The language states that this leader will only last a
short time and implies that the leader will not survive
his deadly wound.
E Why is it reasonable to expect a plan to establish a
world financial center and the actual construction of
"Mystery Babylon" to take place before AWWI erupts?
1 First note that the seven influential heads/nations
will need stable and prospering economies to shoulder
the financial cost of building this city.
2 "Five fell" indicates that the five heads/nations
devastated by AWWI would not be in a financial
position to fund the building of Babylon following
the war.
11 And the beast which was and is not, even he is an
eighth, and is of the seven, and to destruction goes
(Rev. 17:11, IGENT).
A The fact that the seven-headed, ten-horned beast will
cease to function, or exist, following the devastation
wrought by AWWI, is stated again here for emphasis.
B The added informative statement that "even he is an
eighth, and is of the seven" shows that the individual
who will gain control of the world government, will
eventually rise out of the group of seven, to an eighth
position of higher authority.
C At this point, the eighth head will be the dictator of
the world.
12 And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings, who have
not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as
kings with the beast for one hour (Rev. 17:12, NASB).
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and
strength unto the beast (Rev. 17:13).
A John is told here that the powers represented by the ten
horns do not exist in his day, but that they will rise up
on the earth in the future and be given ruling authority
with the final configuration of the "Fourth Beast."
B How long will the special ruling authority granted for
"one hour" with the beast, be in actual time?
- Since Rev. 13:5 stated that "authority was given to
it [the beast] to act forty-two months," the "one
hour" the ten horns "receive authority as kings with
the beast" must also equal forty-two months.
C The statement "These have one mind, and shall give their
power and strength unto the beast" indicates that the
ten countries will, in some respects, be wholly indepen-
dent of each other; but, on the issue of promoting the
world government and the new computerized international
monetary system, they will be completely united.
D They will willingly give their power and strength to the
establishment of the new "world government beast" and
the dictator who will initially run it.
III What evidence shows that the historical assignment of the
ancient nations of Chaldea, Egypt, the Babylon of Daniel's
day, Persia, and Greece, to represent the five heads that
fell, is incorrect?
A Daniel explicitly stated in the vision of the four
beasts that "these four beasts are four kingdoms that
shall rise up on the earth" (Dan. 7:17, TSVGE).
B Since Daniel had the vision of the four beasts during
the reign of Belshazzar, the last king of Babylon, the
Babylon of Daniel's day was not one of the four beasts.
Please read Revelation 17-22. John's vision was written about 96 A.D.
These things have not happened yet.
In preparation for His Second Coming,
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
The Lesson above (38) is from 'Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy'
by Charles Miller, Pub. 1990.
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
Michael, no all I have to do is pick up the Bible and read where the
basic tenents of the pre-trib(pre-mil.) view is correct.
Hey Connie, try to shorten your responses- they seem to be to lengthy.
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
Michael ~
I know you addressed AKelley, but as for me, I have never read
Lindsey, and I turn off Van Impe the minute he appears (although I
have no doubt that some are saved out of his ministry). I'm not one
to deny every other presenter of the Gospel. I don't like Robert
Schuller's style, either, nor in former years, Rex Humbard's and Oral
Roberts'. I leave them to God.
AKelly ~
It is so obvious that the 'end-times' haven't ended yet, and it
certainly was not addressed to anyone BEFORE 96 A.D.
My prayer is that people WILL just read the Scriptures, so that they
don't keep repeating the prophecies of the 'repeat prophets' (not my
words ~ they are Charles').
Luther wanted to eliminate 'Revelations' from the canon, but kept it
because he believed it to be the RC Church. So that is where many
who have that opinion today got it.
The difficult thing is that the material I'm giving you takes A LOT
of time to digest, and takes an intense study of the prophetic
Scriptures, which most busy people do not have time to invest,
because of providing for families and fulfilling prior commitments.
MarkWhiz had asked what method Charles Miller used that was not
working. He had used what had always worked before: the Word. But
people started turning to science and knowledge and did not respond
the way they had previously.
Charles Miller definitely did not start this study with any
preconceived goal except to find out whether certain things he had
heard were actually prophesied, and discovered they were. The first
prophecy he observed as having been fulfilled was the 1967 Six-Day
War which restored all of Jerusalem to Israel.
He heard a Rabbi (on the news) state that regaining the Wailing Wall
was prophecy fulfilled, and he wanted to know if that was accurate.
He discovered that it was, and discovered many other things as well.
He's 59 now, so was 33 when that occurred.
May all of us invest as much time and study to this subject as Christ
would have us do.
God's Will be done.
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
Connie
You said: "It is so obvious that the 'end-times' haven't ended yet,
and it certainly was not addressed to anyone BEFORE 96 A.D."
If that was so, explain Hebrews 1:1-2 - "God, after he spoke long ago
to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and many ways, IN
THESE LAST DAYS has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed hier of
all things, through whom also He made the world."
This was written by 69 A.D.
This passage highlights 2 things:
1) We have been living in the "Last Days" for the last 2000 years.
2) Since God, in these "Last Days", has chosen to speak only through
His Son, one can only deduce that He no longer speaks through the Old
Testament prophets, i.e. that all of their prophecies where fulfilled
either before the time of Christ or they were fulfilled by Christ!
Ooops, I think I see a hole developing in the High Aswan Dam!!! :~)
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
Hi, MarkWhiz:
I'll repost from above:
Connie:
You said: "It is so obvious that the 'end-times' haven't ended yet,
and it certainly was not addressed to anyone BEFORE 96 A.D."
If that was so, explain Hebrews 1:1-2 - "God, after he spoke long ago
to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and many ways, IN
THESE LAST DAYS has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed hier
of all things, through whom also He made the world."
I'll repeat:
'IN THESE LAST DAYS has spoken to us in His Son...' Yes, of course
He spoke to us in His Son.
It doesn't say he spoke to us ONLY in His Son.
The Word speaks to us (Christ, as well as the written Word) and the
Holy Spirit speaks to us as well. It just has to agree with what is
written.
This idea that the end-times prophecies are not for the end-times is
strange.
And, yes, we've been in the end-times (the church age) since Christ
returned to the Father.
In Him,
-- Anonymous, April 25, 2000
The very nature of prophecy dictates that what is hidden will come to
light - only when God chooses to reveal it. Prior to any prophecy
being fulfilled, very few people knew what was happening.
Jesus came into the world to fulfill more than enough OT prophecies.
However, the very people (at least the majority of Israel then and
now) who He came to save ignored Him. Sure Simeon and Anna knew.
Angels revealed Jesus' Messiah-ship to Mary & Joseph. Obviously, John
the Baptist knew and you'd have to assume Elizabeth knew something was
up. They knew! But despite their knowledge, Scripture was fulfilled
and they were powerless to stop it. Mary indeed had a sword pierced
through her heart.
Now concerning the mark of the beast, 666 and the Mystery of Babylon,
a number of noteworthy things are present.
1) Among the three, only the Babylonian Adulterous is identified as a
"mystery," as in "something hidden." Obviously, John is given clues
to "figure" her out (she's on the beast, seven hills, drunk on the
blood of the saints). For "us," as Christians, to understand her
future (or present) role, the signs must come to pass for her
fulfillment, then WE WILL KNOW. Until then, she remains a mystery.
We can conjecture to her identity, but until God chooses to reveal
her, we continue to study and pray.
2) The omnious 666, I believe, is different in nature from the
Babylonian Adulterous. The number 666 is not considered a mystery,
but almost rather a clue as to the two beast's (Sea & Earth's)
identities. Wisdom is the name of the game, not prophetic
interpretation. Obviously, some sort of mathematical figuring will
render the beast of the Earth's identity. Since the mark "is the name
of the beast or the number of his name" (Rev. 13:17), then you have a
sure-fire way of exposing darkness in the last days at the time of its
revealing. The 666 foretelling is prophetic in nature, but it's
revealing calls for wisdom. Seemingly, this wisdom cannot reveal the
beast of the Earth & Sea (and the Dragon who gave them power), until
the "mark of the beast" is revealed on the forehead and the right
hand (yet again, a sure-fire way of exposing darkness in the last
days!).
3) Concerning the mark of the beast, don't worry. I'm fairly
positive that when we start seeing "marks" placed on everyone's
forehead or right hand, then you'll know something is up! But the
nature of this prophecy is found within the context of the saints.
Revelation 13:10 tells us: "'If anyone is to go into captivity, into
captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with
the sword he will be killed.' This calls for patient endurance and
faithfulness on the part of the saints." Notice that the beast of the
Earth is able to do all manner of miracles, signs and wonders. And in
some ways, he sounds like an OT prophet (especially Elijah). It seems
to me his kingdom will be based on deception (v. 14), power (v. 15)
and forced allegiance (v. 16) with a tad bit of manipulation (v. 17).
We as Christian have the advantage over Satan because we know the
truth . . . NOW. Not just because it's within the pages of the Bible,
but because the light of truth and the Spirit of God has enlightened
us to these facts. I truly believe that the mark is being formed and
prepared. As of yet, I've not received (chose any one: an implanted
chip, a barcode, a microprocessor, a tatoo) in my forehead or right
hand. I have not had to choose between Christ and whether or not I
can buy or sell. But I'll tell you this much, when it does happen,
the saints of God will be ready. Peace!
-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000
SonMan:
The following is repeated from Lesson 30 above:
Thanks to Christ's advance warnings, Christians will not be deceived.
IV The mark of the beast will be the main weapon used by the world
government to subdue the Christian community.
16 And it makes all men, the small and the great, both the rich and
the poor, both the free men and the slaves, in order that they should
give to them a mark on the right hand of them or on the forehead of
them (Rev. 13:16, IGENT), 17 So that no one can buy or sell unless he
has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its
name (Rev. 13:17, RSV). 18 Here is wisdom. The one having reason let
him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man. And
the number of it (is) six hundreds (and) sixty-six (Rev. 13:18,
IGENT).
A The "Religious Beast" will use the Fourth Beast's global computer
systems to enforce the decree demanding that everyone worship its
life-like idol.
B The text shows that the replacement of cash and checks by a
computerized international monetary system, will make it relatively
easy to force people to cooperate with the new world and religious
order.
C The text warns that no one will be able to "buy or sell" unless
they have the "mark, the name of the beast or the number of the name
of it" (Rev. 13:17, IGENT) placed permanently on their right hand, or
forehead.
D In addition to one of the three acceptable computer access
identifiers, every person will need a unique personal identification
number (PIN).
E The text states that the number of the international government
will also be the number of a man.
F "Here is wisdom," reveals that some peculiar knowledge, or skill,
will be required to understand the relation- ship between the number
666 and the name of the man who will play the most prominent role in
establishing and controlling the world government.
G Verse 18 exhorts those who have "reason," or unique understanding
based on specialized skills, to "count" the number of the beast,
since the number 666 will be connected to the name of this specific
man.
H The word "count" in the original Greek means compute.
To repeat:
H The word "count" in the original Greek means compute.
From 'Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy', by Charles W. Miller;
Pub. 1990.
Respectfully Submitted,
-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000
From one of my April 22nd posts:
I want to emphasize one portion, however:
'7 These water-sharing schemes look promising, but no projects have
started to date, due to lack of funding.
8 Although the current water-sharing schemes help support the present
peace in the Middle East, Zech. 10:10-11 points to future
confrontation between Israel and her Arab neighbors:
10 "I will bring them back from the land of Egypt, And gather them
from Assyria; And I will bring them into the land of Gilead and
Lebanon, Until no room can be found for them. 11 "And He will pass
through the sea of distress, And strike the waves in the sea, So that
all the depths of the Nile will dry up . . . (NASB).
a The Jews have already returned from Egypt and Assyria.
b The Israeli Defense Force controls southern Lebanon today, but the
Jews do not live there.
c In modern times Israel has never controlled any portion of ancient
Gilead.
- Since the Yarmuk river is the boundary between Syria to the north,
and Jordan to the south, today's Jews could only migrate to the land
of Gilead, "Until no room can be found for them," if Jordan invited
them--a highly unlikely possibility.
- Much more probable, Israel will take the Yarmuk river area,
including Jordanian Gilead, in a war, possibly over Yarmuk water.
d Since Isaiah said the Nile would dry up before Christ Returns (Isa.
11), and since the Jews' move into Gilead and Lebanon is listed here
before the prediction that "the depths of the Nile will dry up," it
is clear that the Jews will move into Gilead and Lebanon before
Christ returns.
- Whether or not a Syrian-Israeli dispute over Yarmuk river water
will lead to a Russian invasion of Israel, awaits tomorrow's
developments.
- In the meantime, Yarmuk water-sharing agreements between Israel and
her neighbors, bear watching'.
From 'Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy' by Charles W. Miller;
Pub. 1990.
Presently, Israel is having water shipped by tanker because her
supply is so short.
Something to ponder.
Respectfully,
-- Anonymous, May 04, 2000
Hello forum!
I'm sorry to be returning to an older topic, but I'm actually not
contributing the thread but an argument mentioned during the
duscussion.
Since only a few people know me in person, I'll introduce myself
first. I'm Cynthia's daughter, and a recently immersed believer in
Christ. Tonight, I am responding to a comment made with regards to
micro-chips in dogs. I speak from experience and my credentials in
the area of dogs are extensive. I show dogs personally and
professionally, and am involved in many areas of science and health
where dogs are concerned.
Some of you have the erroneous belief that animal micro-chips are
"tracking devices"; containing a wealth of information regarding the
dog and it's owner(s). Nothing could be further from the truth.
The chip is the size of a grain of rice, and is inserted between the
shoulder blades of the animal. The only information that chip
contains is a serial number. When a scanner is run over the chip, a
number comes up on the screen. This number, is initially assigned to
the implanting vet. If the dog's owner does no further registration,
and the dog is lost; once the dog is found and scanned, the 800 number
for the chip company is called. They look up the number, call the vet
it was assigned to (they have no idea about the owner, dog, etc..),
and the vet would, in turn, alert the owner from his records.
However, if the owner has gone through the registration process with
the chip company, then the owner would be called directly when the
lost dog was found and scanned.
My point being, is that the chip does not contain any information,
other than a barcode number. The information is stored with the chip
company, and that info depends on the owner's actions.
All of our 7 dogs are microchipped, and I wouldn't have it any other
way.
Now returning to my regularly scheduled lurking... :-)
Respectfully,
Kimberly
-- Anonymous, May 29, 2000
Hello, Kimberley, (hope I spelled that correctly ~ I don't want to go
back in the thread to make sure) ~
You are correct, of course, that animal micro-chips have only certain
information, not tracking devices. But there ARE such tracking
devices.
But that is not something germane to this discussion; the Scriptures
state that the purpose of any mark the people of the end-times
receive will be to control whether people can buy or sell. The
designers of the chips can determine what they want the chips to do.
There are actually discussions presently which address whether to
give babies some sort of identification at birth, all for VERY GOOD
reasons of course.
Whatever form it will take, rest assured that there will be some such
mark. The Scriptures say so.
Respectfully,
-- Anonymous, May 30, 2000
Well, ~ only two ways to spell 'Kimberly' and, wouldn't you know? ~ I
got it wrong on the first try. I am sorry.
The 'tracking device' mentioned at some other point, is not the
imbedded chip which controls buying and selling (although if TPTB
wanted to, they could make such a device the required one) but
the 'eyes in the sky' satellites, which already do some of that kind
of tracking. Zechariah 5:5-6 mentions a 'resemblance' throughout the
earth, and the Douay says, 'This is their eye in all the earth'. (I
know the Douay is the catholic version).
The following, because it seems to fit here, is from the book I have
been quoting above.
TODAY'S TECHNOLOGY IN BIBLE PROPHECY
Lesson 33: Zechariah's description of a modern communications
satellite and its future mission.
I Zechariah described a modern communications satellite in
terms of a flying roll.
1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and
behold a flying roll (Zech. 5:1).
A A roll was an ancient book in the form of a rolled
manuscript, usually made of parchment.
1 Ancient parchments were commonly called scrolls.
2 When rolled up they were called rolls or volumes.
3 A rolled up scroll was cylindrical in shape and looked
like a modern roll of paper towels.
B The way this prophecy begins you could only conclude that
Zechariah was writing about a rolled up scroll that was
flying through the heavens.
C But notice the question the angel asked next.
2 And he said unto me, what seest thou? And I answered, I
see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and
the breadth thereof ten cubits (Zech. 5:2).
A In view of Zechariah's initial report of what he saw:
"behold a flying roll," why did the angel ask him "What
seest thou?"
- To draw attention to the fact that Zechariah was not
viewing an actual roll but some flying object that
was similar in appearance to a roll.
B At this point in the prophecy why would a communications
satellite be a possible candidate for what Zechariah saw?
1 First, Hebrew rolls did not fly through the heavens.
2 Second, satellites, like rolled up scrolls, are
cylindrical in shape.
3 Third, rolled up scrolls did not come in twenty by ten
cubit dimensions.
a A cubit was not a precise measurement in ancient
times but for centuries it has been considered to be
roughly 18 inches in length.
b Therefore, the flying roll Zechariah saw was about
30 feet long and 15 feet in diameter.
C Although Zechariah had no idea what he was viewing at
first glance, twentieth century people can make the
connection between a flying roll and a modern
communications satellite without difficulty.
D Commercial communications satellites were first deployed
in the heavens in the mid-1960s.
E At roughly 22,300 miles beyond the surface of the earth
they easily send and receive, simultaneously, thousands
of phone calls, TV broadcasts and computer-to-computer
data transmissions, from continent to continent, in mere
fractions of a second.
F America's 1980s Intelsat VI satellites were roughly 12
feet in diameter and 38 feet in length.
G In April of 1994, Trinity Broadcasting Network reported that
the Hughes Galaxy satellite they purchased to reach Africa
and South America, was exactly 15-by-30 feet.
H Inspection of the functional capabilities of the shuttle
spaceships sheds more light on the significance of this
prophetic satellite's 30-by-15 foot dimensions.
1 One of the shuttle's main missions is to launch
communications satellites into higher orbit from
its cargo bay.
2 Later, if a satellite needs to be brought back to
earth for repairs, the shuttle's remote-controlled
arm stuffs it back into the shuttle's cargo bay for
the return trip.
3 Interestingly, the shuttle's cylindrical cargo bay
happens to be 60 feet long and 15 feet in diameter.
4 It is designed to carry two large disabled satellites
back to earth for repair that have a length of
approximately 30 feet and a breadth roughly equal
to 15 feet.
5 Note further that Russia's Buran shuttle also has a
15-by-60 foot cargo bay.
I Zechariah's continuing space-age prophecy spells out how
a future world government will use 30-by-15 foot
communications satellites to control a global monetary
system.
J Why did God provide the exact dimensions of tomorrow's
satellites in ancient times?
1 So people could not shrug off Zechariah's accurate
description of modern man's satellites.
2 Although the satellites that will be deployed by
tomorrow's world government are not yet available for
inspection, the similarity in size between today's
satellites and the one shown to Zechariah has to be
classified as nothing less than remarkable.
3 After all, how could Zechariah possibly have surmised
what size a satellite should be twenty-five centuries
before man invented one?
4 For even if Zechariah ingeniously conceptualized the
idea of a global communications system in his day,
there would have been no way for him to estimate the
correct size of the container required to house the
components needed to perform the actual communications
transmissions.
5 It turns out that it takes a 15-by-30 foot cylindrical
surface area to house the solar panels used to generate
the electricity required to run the satellite's
transponders.
II The angel then compared the flying roll's mission to a curse.
3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth
over the face of the whole earth: for every one that
stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it;
and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that
side according to it.
4 I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts, and it
shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house
of him that sweareth falsely by my name, and it shall
remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with
the timber thereof and the stones thereof (Zech. 5:3-4).
A How can it be determined from Zechariah's text that
the initial benefit of this future satellite-linked,
international financial system will be its ability to
eliminate thievery and cheating in business
transactions such as writing bad checks?
1 Zechariah specifically stated that everyone who
tries to steal will be "cut off," or banished, "as
on this side according to it."
2 Likewise, everyone who swears falsely in God's
name in the course of doing business "shall be cut
off on that side according to it."
3 If a person tries to beat the system, or is wanted
for another crime, central computer data banks
will alert the authorities when he attempts to use
the global computer network.
4 Punishment will consist of being "cut off," or
denied access into the world's computerized
economic system.
B Since this prophecy closes with a description of the
construction of a space base for tomorrow's world capital,
it is reasonable to conclude that the "world government
beast" will use computers and the satellites described in
this prophecy to gain control "over every tribe and people
and tongue and nation" (Rev. 13:7 IGENT).
C If computers with connecting satellite links will help
stop crime, why did God label this equipment and its use
as a "curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole
earth?"
1 God's forceful indictment warns of a coming day when
computers and connecting satellites will be used as a
weapon of oppression against innocent people.
2 Revelation 13's full explanation of how this
electronic equipment will be turned against
Christians (by controlling who can "buy and
sell") confirms this prophetic indictment.
D Zechariah inserted a Levitical analogy in verse 4 which
sharpens the form and substance of the matter.
1 "And it shall remain in the midst of his house, and
shall consume it with the timber thereof and the
stones thereof."
2 Zechariah employed the language used by Moses to
describe the early Hebrews' procedure for removing
the plague of leprosy, to show how Christians will
be treated at the end of the age.
44 Then the priest shall come and look, and, behold, if the
plague be spread in the house, it is a fretting leprosy in
the house: it is unclean.
45 And he shall break down the house, the stones of it, and
the timber thereof, and all the morter of the house; and he
shall carry them forth out of the city into an unclean
place (Lev. 14:44-45).
45 And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall
be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering
upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean.
46 All the days wherein the plague shall be in him he shall
be defiled; he is unclean: he shall dwell alone; without
the camp shall his habitation be (Lev. 13:45-46).
A The Jews were very familiar with the dreaded disease of
leprosy and the procedure for utterly destroying a house
that had the plague within its structure.
1 In Zechariah's day they dug the foundation stones of a
leprous house right out of the ground.
2 Timbers, stones and mortar were carried outside the
city.
3 When the demolition was completed there was
absolutely nothing left.
B According to Zechariah's prophetic analogy, satellites
shall enter a person's house, shall remain in the midst
of his house, and shall consume it with the timber
thereof and the stones thereof.
1 Zechariah's greater prophecy warns that the world
government's satellites will enter the Christian's
house and dwell there day and night, when the central
computer system identifies and classifies a Christian
as a "leper," for not receiving the "mark of the
beast."
2 The "high priest satellite" will quarantine the
Christian's house by denying him access to the
world's computerized economic system.
3 Like the leper of old who lived "alone," outside the
camp, Christians will be forced to live outside of
the world's computerized economic system.
4 Therefore, in the last days, the satellite that will
come into a Christian's house and remain in the midst
of his house, will literally be "the curse that goeth
forth over the face of the whole earth."
III In view of the fact that man has built and launched
communications satellites into space, why does verse 4 say
"I will bring it forth, saith the Lord of hosts?"
A "Saith the Lord of hosts" is equivalent to saying: "for
the Lord has spoken this word" (Isa. 24:3).
B In other words these satellites will appear in the heavens
in the last days according to God's prophecy recorded by
Zechariah.
C The emphatic statement "I will bring it forth" declares
that even though the feasibility of sending satellites
through the heavens appeared to be an impossibility in
Zechariah's day, the fulfillment of the prophecy was as
certain as it would be if God himself built and launched
this man-made "curse."
D Isaiah 24:1-4 (explained in chapter 9 of Today's
Technology in Bible Prophecy, pp. 216-217) clarifies
this emphatic prophetic language further.
'Today's Technology in Prophecy' by Charles W. Miller, published 1990.
In response to something MarkWhiz said above: Our church does not
use this material to attract people to our services, nor even do any
advertising of it. In fact, our church is not even listed in the
newspapers on Saturdays with all of the advertized ones.
I was in the same church where this is being offered (of six classes
offered weekly, and it gets no more or less advertizing than any of
the others do) and didn't notice it until a year ago. (My own
stupidity can account for that ~ I didn't want to go to a 9:00
o'clock class). Now there are two classes a week offered, bacause of
the number wanting to take it. (A double-lesson class on Monday
evenings is also offered at periodic times).
1500 people are associated with our church and about 30 (in two
classes) attend these sessions.
So it's not as though anyone is pushing it. Over the 10 years
Charles has been teaching it, many in the church have attended. But
they usually drop out when he mentions the second coming. (A prophet
is without honor in his own country and in his own land). ~ But
Charles is not making a claim to being a prophet. He's just digging
out prophetic Scriptures and analyzing them.
Prayerfully submitted,
-- Anonymous, May 30, 2000
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