I have been wondering if anyone has had actual experience with CAE and if so if they would post their intial findings, what they did about it and how they dealt with it. It almost seems like a mythological monster to me, and I am not trying to suggest it doesn't exist, just that I haven't heard true life accounts of it. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity, and also allowing me the use of your wisdom.

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 07, 2000

Answers

What's CAE?

-- Sherrie Holcomb (ester@communitygate.net), April 08, 2000.

We had an experience with CAE or as the last person who posted asked,... Caprine Arthritic Encyphletis (sp). This was several yrs ago when we first began raising goats. We found out what is was because we had to put down a doe because here kneees had swollen and she was getting worse. she was an 8 ry old doe that had been a pet and never bred. She was bred by our Nubian buck and after she kidded she the disease came out. CAE can lay dormant for years and then a stressful situation will trigger it. After that we tested the entire herd.. we had 1 other CAE positive doe.. isolated her from the rest and then tested the rest on a annual basis for CAE. With that doe we liked her lines so we AI'd her and then when the baby was due we watched her and immediately took the baby away. We fed the baby colestrum form one of our neg. does. I have also heard you can use cow colestrum as well. We put the doe down when we moved as I did not want to sell her to someone and then pass on the CAE without proper management. she was 8 when we did. I also could not stand to see her have an uncertain future. proper management practices can help prevent CAE from spreading to the rest of the herd. Back in the mid 1980's CAE was in a lot of top herds. Many could not afford to put goats down or to end bloodlines so they had to practice prevention as I mentioned. If you'd like any more information on CAE let me know I can send you a few files.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

Oh my - do you really want to know? OK. We had our herd tested several times over a period of a few years. The tests always came back neg. and we went blissfully on our way. Came kidding time and two of our does which happened to be from the same line each had triplets. Knowing that our herd was neg. we allowed the kids to nurse for the first three days before pulling them to bottle feed. We always milk out the doe everyday to prevent any mastitus problems and were surprised at the hard bag and total lack of milk at the stripping. Reason for the no milk is that she wasn't making any and both does started down and we had no idea what was happening. The does were gathered up and taken to the vet and we found that they had CAE and basically nothing could be done for them.As I recall we lost a couple of the kids and those that remained were bottled. Odd thing is that even with all that the kids tests were neg. as well! The animal can carry CAE and never show any sign and then some sort of stress can bring it on or make them "turn" and have the desease. Both animals had kidded before - had triplets before so it is unknown what set them off.

-- Kerry Wooster (kerryw@hctc.net), April 08, 2000.

If you haven't heard of any real life experiences with it, either the goat keepers in the area where you live have eradicated the disease,locally, or they aren't testing for it. Based on my experience, more than half of the goatkeepers I've met have never heard of it, let alone tested for it. I have been careful about who I bought my stock from, and about not breeding with other herds that are not 100% negative. Nonetheless, we have had two does that came up positive for CAE. The first,a Saanen,was bought from a lady who said the doe had tested negative. It turned out that the doe, although bottle raised, had run in a herd of mixed positive and negative animals her entire life. This doe was very loving to our children and became a real pet. But no matter how much I fed her, she was always pretty thin. A few months after buying her I had the whole herd tested, and that doe was the only positive one in the herd. We promptly seperated her from the others.Since she was pregnant and due to kid soon, I wanted to keep her until she kidded and raise the kids on bottles. Three weeks before she was due, she had them prematurely- 2 of the kids were small,brown, and partly decomposed, one, a doe, was normal sized and looked fine. They were all dead. The doe never came into milk, and we couldn't give her away when we told the truth about her condition,so we put her down. My boys were heartbroken, and they still ask about her.Last summer, a friend went to buy some Oberhasli does,and I asked her to pick one up for my little boy-his first goat. The breeder said all animals he had and sold were guaranteed negative. We got a nice little doeling, my son took her to the fair and showed her. A few months ago,I had the whole herd tested, and the oberhasli doe was the only positive. I called up the breeder, they said the doe's mother had been sold, and that she could have had anything. They sounded annoyed that I had called to tell them about this so called guaranteed negative animal. There was certainly no refund or even an apology. I got rid of that doe quickly also.My little boy keeps asking when Beauty is going to come back. I have tried to explain that she was very sick and is never coming back, but he is only 4 and doesn't really understand. That doe never had swollen joints, and she wasn't thin, she just had an incurably snotty nose for months on end. The worst of it is, that even though none of my goats have drank any of the milk from the first doe, and the second doe had never freshened, my entire herd,which represents a significant investment in time,love and money, has been exposed to this contaigious disease because of 1. my gullibility in trusting that the does were negative instead of asking for proof, and 2 the dishonesty of the breeders. Needless to say, I am going to have a closed herd from now on, or only buy from people that I know personally who have had a negative herd for years and can prove it! I am going to have to test my herd every 6 months for several years before I can be 100% certain that my own herd is clean. At over $100.00 per herd test ( I draw the blood myself or it would be much more), it is really a financial strain and a pain in the neck. `

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), April 08, 2000.

Thanks for sharing that experience Rebekah. I am very wary of breeders who claim that they can guarentee CAE negative. To me thats a statement for positive. Since the test is not 100% reliable and there are some many discrepencies involved with CAE to state a gurarentee is foolish on the breeders behalf. I get peeved with breeders who make such claims. I am angry with the breeder who put you through such heartache. Like you... I ask to see CAE test results and the annual testing for certified CAE free. Since we are tested annually for CAE we have to isolate a new goat for almost a yr... test.. and if negative then introduce to our herd.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

The real problem here is that our tests are not accurate for what we need them to do. Right now the tests will tell us if a doe has full blown disease, whether the doe has clinical (signs) disease or not. What we need is a test that will tell us if the doe has any antibody. Even if you do have 100% negative results, all this means is that as of this date you are 100% negative. Purchase a doe, and the stress of the move can cause this titer to rise, and your doe is no longer negative. Remember that a human mother can give HIV, German Measles etc. to her unborn children because all placentas do not stop all virus's. So even though you are heat treating and pasutrizing, you can still have kids born to what you thought were negative does, come up positive after the kid has a stress of a move from your place. The longer you have goats the worse it is, my 10 year old has never been through a stress, and though she is negative for the virus on blood test, I would never even consider using her colostrum or milk raw. Testing an animal before you purchase and then having a second test 120 days after the purchase, is about all you can do. Then comes all the controversy of white blood cells in saliva, etc. If CAE was this easily passed then how do you account for the does who were not positive back in the late 80's when these test came out? Another question would be, why are we seeing a change in CAE from swollen hocks and knees, to hard udders with no milk? Vicki McGaugh

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 08, 2000.

Thank you for sharing all of that information. From what you all say, it would appear that,just like HIV is to Aids, a positive test isn't necessarily indicative of a symptomatic, or necessarily contagious condition. It is then essentially auto-immune oriented.

So the next question would be if anyone has tried to keep the CAE+ goats healthy thru a immune system enhancing nutritional program?

At the risk of sounding anti-medical establishment (which I am), if the disease is brought about by stress, can be - one day and + the next it sounds as if the tests aren't really testing for a virus of any kind but only a virus in action. Does this make sense to anyone?

I am seriously researching this now, because my vet can't be trusted and I don't want to be selling infected or infectious kids to anyone. It seems strange that stress would bring on a positive of a virus and I am trying to make sense of that.

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

Funny, Doreen, that you should mention that AIDS and CAE have some things in common; I have wondered the same about CAE and Epstien- Barr, which my Mom has had, and a tendency to arthritis, which she has struggled with for years (two replaced knees and some thumb joints redone). She nursed my brother and myself, and we both are starting to have similar problems. We've both put ourselves on Glucosomines, and it seems to help....but sometimes I wonder.

Rebekah, maybe you should write the American Dairy Goat Association about your Oberhasli doeling, and your "gaurentee." Did you et it in writing? There might be a way to get tohe breeder to make good his/her promises; a serious breeder DOESN'T want to be known in the goat world as a dishonest person, and they NEED to have the priviledge of registering their animals with the ADGA. Just a thought.

I haven't had goats in years, but I do remember something about nutritional suppliments that will greatly ease the symptoms of CAE; some diseases' symptoms mimic CAE, too. Was it kelp, or maybe spirulena? Keeping 'em healthy will help keep the symtoms at bay, and make for a longer, more useful life span.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), April 08, 2000.

In one article I read awhile ago TB testing and pregnancy and too soon after kidding can also bring on a + test. I think if you go to the 7 herbal farms or herbla 7.. I forgot.. at onelist.com there is information on immunesystem and CAE there. I recently saw a post on that with CL. I also wondered about gluta syn on goats.. its a immune system booster. Have not read a lot about it yet.. its a horse supplement. If you find out anything interesting researching please pass it on.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

Hi, You all probably already have a copy, but I just got Merck's Veterinary Manual and frankly I'm severely depressed now. This manual says that CAE+ is at>65% in the US. Also, I am now certain that the matriarch of all of my goats is CAE+. Tests be damned, she shows all the sign except for actual arthritis. So, it leaves me with a few questions. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but when I had my vet test for CAE he tested blood. If this isn't transmitted by blood, but by saliva or colostrum/milk why is the blood tested?

Also, is there no way to form an alliance that places everyone who joins under contract, when buying or selling goats, to have full disclosure and testing done and an honor bound system to report any incidences of CAE to a common agency so that we can control this?

As indicated by Sherri(sp?) not everyone is aware of this disease, and I was certainly not aware of a 65% positive status.

Another question, in a closed herd, if you have no buck, do you use AI?

My herd has been closed with breeding being the only exception and then it has only been for the actual mating. I care for my animals twice a day everyday, so I know when they are ready to mate.

I was just blessed with twin does and I couldn't get them away before the mother licked and probably nursed them. I want to cry.

Any ideas on forming a kind of coalition amongst goat keepers to slow/ stop the spread of this would be greatly appreciated. It doesn't all come down to $$ when the health of the entire goat populace in the country is in danger.

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 10, 2000.

I've heard of folk installing a baby monitor in the goat barn, to be able to keep a better ear out for small arrivals. They get them used at thrift stores. Can't say how well that might work, I'm still on the lookout for one myself.

-- Connie (connie@lunehaven.com), April 10, 2000.

We use baby monitors, but we take the extra step of teat tape. We tried all kinds of teat tape then we used superglue this year. Just a drop near the orifice and it worked like a charm. I miss very few kiddings, trying to keep really good breeding dates, but it helps to know that if I do miss it they can't nurse. I also use kidding pens, because the birth fluids and placenta do have the dams blood on them. Cae is tested by blood, colostrum and knee fluid. To suggest that CAE is passed in saliva, urine or by breeding would certainly have given us 100% CAE positive animals years ago. I would think that the 65% figure in Merck was when they started testing 14 to 20 years ago. A better book for your goats is Goat Medicine. Vicki McGaugh

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 10, 2000.

As for some type of regulation to stop the sales of CAE positive goats there would have to be some type of government regulation as is the case now with scrapie. Scrapie regulation is soon to be implemented by the federal government in an effort to contain the disease. Further, I think considering the fact that the testing for CAE is not exactly 100% accurate yet that to enact any type of regulations would be a futile attempt. We need to get more accurate testing measures in place first. I also feel that to regulate CAE would be great in that it would contain the disease and provide information and stop a lot of deliberate sales...... Now the kicker to this is that I have met many breeders who just plain old don't give a damn about CAE or CL or anything detramential to the health of the goat. They are out to claim a quick buck and thats that! There are many honest breeders who truly care but there are also those with their own interests as well. How can we regulate CAE & CL effectively when there are several goats a day that go to auction barns and bought for the purpose of raising meat or whatever that cannot be tracked. It would be difficult to do. I will also say this too.. you can buy a CAE negative doe from a CAE tested herd and have that doe test positive down the road even if your herd is CAE negative.. its happened. And a CAE positive doe can test negative when tested again. So how do we really know? We don't. We need accurate testing to determine if its the actual disease manifested or a immune system reaction to the virus. Until there are more definate answers we really don't know. Just my humble thoughts on this.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), April 10, 2000.

Frankly, I think that the percentage of positive goats is probably more than 65%. For one thing, many goat keepers have never heard of the disease, or tested for it. Also, of the 35% negative animals, how many of those are being run with positives, or have drunk ositive milk but haven't tested positive yet? CAE is passed through white blood cells. The white blood cells are present in blood, milk,and in a diseased animal, could also be present in semen and saliva. If the semen processers have been careful not to process semen that has white blood cells in it, that seme would be safe.Some bucks semen is advertised as to whether the buck tested negative,Magnum Semen Works is the only catalog I have seen that does this.If there are any lesions or wounds on the positive bucks' penis, which can happen if he is the type that chews on himself, there is a chance that the doe could be infected by being bred to him. What symptoms does your matriarchal doe have? Where did you get her from? She might just be getting old. I wish that there were more of an effort to get this under control. Unfortunately,most breeders seem to be taking the kids away at birth,bottle feeding them on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk,and then throwing them into a whole herd of mixed positive and negative animals! Why go to all that work,only to lose it by exposing them to the disease for the rest of their life? I cannot understand the logic behind that. I have heard that there is something called accreditated CAE negative, and that the rules are quite stringent. I think that a good way to contribute to stopping CAE is to work on a local level. Educate every goatkeeper and potential goat buyer you meet. Make sure that they understand that the animal can be diseased even if she looks healthy. Tell potential buyer, especially new goat keepers who are just getting started,all about CAE and that if the breeder cannot produce negative test results, they should buy from someone who can furnish proof. Refuse buck service to people who haven't tested their entire herd and had negative results. If you can get your local 4-H leader who does the goat stuff interested and concerned about CAE, you will have a real asset to the goat community, as some of those 4-H kids will be tomorrows goatkeepers, and if they do not buy from people with positive animals, they will be giving their business instead to reputable breeders. When you hear of someone dishonest, or who is selling diseased animals, put the word out. Warn all the other goat keepers and potential goat buyers. That sounds nasty, but just a month or two ago, I met a lady with a negative herd, who has not been keeping goats for very long. She had a truck full of goats that she had just bought from a local gal, who had claimed they were all CAE-. This lady started to tell me who the breeders were of these does, and one of the does had come from the same breeder that my positive Saanen came from. She was upset when I told her the doe might be positive, but glad that I had told her so that the doe could be quarantined and tested, or sold for meat. By the way, if you test your herd and there is a positive goat, it is unethical to go and sell it to someone else. That is just spreading the disease around. Hard as it might be, the goat needs to be either strictly quarantined, or put down, or sold for meat where you are certain she is going to get eaten.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), April 10, 2000.

Of course it is unethical to sell your problem to someone else. The problem with that seems to be that the testing is inaccurate so a well intentioned person could do that unknowingly. So that seems to be the crux of the situation.

As for as the symptoms of my doe, she kidded 3/28 & she has a very hard udder, and very distended. Happened last time, but I had changed her to alfalfa from browse and coastal hay three weeks pror to kidding and was told that was the reason for the hardness of her udder. Also she has a lopsided bag, which is supposedly why the people who were selling her were doing so. The boy was in 4H and couldn't win any prizes with her ugly udder. She gets abcesses in the same spot on her jaw frequently. She is thin, even though all of her kids are fed the same and quite strong, she will not put on weight. Her coat is dull. She spins her head in circles- I am not a racist, but like a black girl on Ricki Lake or something. She now has lumps on her udder on the shallow side of her lopsided bag. Her body temp runs 1 degree below normal on a regular basis. She hasn't ever had pnuemonia or cold like symptoms (knock on wood) she doesn't seem tired, she milks about 2-3 quarts average perday. Her milk is good, not clotty or pink. I guess that about covers it.

I appreciate all of your responses, thanks very much!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 10, 2000.

It sounds like she may have had or still has mastitis. If she has abcesses, she has CL, Caseous Lymphoma, which is almost as bad as CAE but has it's own symptoms and complications. It is also contaigious, more so when the abcess is draining. I don't know very much about CL, because, thankfully, I haven't had it in my herd. I have heard that it can cause thinness,though, and the abcesses can also be internal, in the organs, udder, and meat. I have read that the WADDL test used by Washington State University is 98% accurate. Some of the other tests are not as accurate. That test is for CAE. So if the tests on all your goats came out negative, and they were sent to WSU (if your vet sent them there) it would seem that they are probably negative. In a mixed herd, positive and negative animals together, a negative can turn up positive any time, and is likely to. A doe that was fed positive milk as a baby could come up positive later in life if stress activated the disease. But if you have had a closed herd for several years, and they are all negative, I would consider that maybe something else is wrong. Loss of weight can also be caused by Johnnes disease, which some say is actually a copper deficiency. With all the symptoms you mentioned, I would think that if she had CAE it would be a full blown case, enough to be acutely positive. That is just my opinion.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), April 10, 2000.

Doreen, your discription is that of CL, Caseous Lymphadenitis. Tennessemeatgoats has a great site on this with the picture from Goat Medicine, on where lymph nodes are on a goat. Abcess in her udder will cause this hard, loss of circulation, pitted look to her udder. She can have busted ones in her udder, and since this is passed in the colostrum and milk and from the exude from the abcess draining, it is highly contagious, even to humans. The test at Washington is only accurate, if the exude from the abcess is tested. It is common knowledge that does with positive CL abcess, where the abcess has been tested, can at the same time have a negative blood test. We also had colostrum samples taken that were negative on test also, though the doe had a postive culture from an abcess. The worst part of CL is the transmission from wherever on your property she has busted the abcess. This material can stay on boards, trees, feeders, fence posts for months. Material from an abcess was tested in Goat Medicine after several months, and was found to be infectious still. A doe who has abcess can also have small pencil eraser size ones that burst, that most folks would never see unless they shave every year. The worst damage is done by the abcesses that are internal. When an abcess grows large enough to bother an internal organ the goats usually will waste, then die. There are folks who do use the vaccine for this, but there is such conflicting data, I couldn't at all recommend them. Good luck with your doe. Some of the herbal rememdies that are being used would definetly improve her quality of life, and boost immune function. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 11, 2000.