Connie,

You claim that you believe that the "Holy Spirit enlightens and teaches you."

You say that the Holy Spirit has taught you that baptism is not essential for salvation.

However, you confess to Benjamin that "you were wrong about the Acts 9 passage"....and you thank Benjamin for pointing it out.

Now here is my question to you....since you claim that the Holy Spirit teaches you.....who was in fact wrong about the Acts 9 passage?? Was it you or the Holy Spirit??

Your logic followed all the way through would necessitate that since the Holy Spirit taught you about Acts 9......He taught you wrong.

Therefore, could what you perceive the Holy Spirit teaches you....also be wrong about baptism??

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Answers

Connie,

I have changed my mind MANY times concerning various things about the Scripture.

However, I have the freedom to do that because....I never claimed that the "Holy Spirit taught me."

If I change my mind Scipturally it is because evidence convinces me to change my mind....and I realize I was wrong about it. I realize my interpretation was wrong.

If the Holy Spirit teaches me something.....not only must it be the truth....it also needs to be put in red and placed in Holy Writ....for that's what the Holy Spirit did through the Apostles. He revealed to them....they taught it and wrote it down....and "wah-la" we have the Scriptures.

There are things we can know with more certainty than others.

For instance, necessity of baptism....no doubt. Baptism always by immersion.....no doubt.

Now concerning whether or not Jepthah fulfilled his vow by killing his daughter.....I'll never know for sure about that.

But then again, that's not a matter of salvation.

Michael.....

Couple things....

1) I too believe that the Holy Spirit works in our life....but only in matters other than revealed truth. In other words, I believe the Holy Spirit can lead me to call on a person who needs to hear the gospel, or can lead me to the right congregation. However, I do not think the Holy Spirit "teaches" me other than through His word.

2) I don't believe we will know for sure whether or not it was the Holy Spirit leading us to do something, or our own common sense, until the other side of heaven. Therefore, for me, "feeling" will never equal revelation.

I'm deeply troubled (as I would hope you are) when someone claims "Holy Spirit" illumination and their doctrine is not only false, but dangerous.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Nate...

It was a "transliteration"....and....if that doesn't sound good it was a "onomontapia."

ROFL!!!

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Michael....

As I evaluate our differences, I am reminded of the difference between Campbell and Stone concerning this issue. Stone had pretty much the same view you have....mine would be more in line with Campbell's. Campbell admitted that Stone's view made him "uncomfortable." I would say the same concerning your view as per it's reaction from me.

HOWEVER....(and this is the big however).....for Campbell...it was not an issue which he spent a great deal of time debating with Stone over.

In the same way, I would not spend a good time debating you over it.

As you said, you are comfortable with it from your view of Scripture....as I am with my view of Scripture.

Mine was not a desire to start a Holy Spirit...but rather....to confront, as Lee pointed out......bad scholarship that hides behind the veil of "illumination."

Your Brother,

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

I meant to say...."It was not my desire to start a Holy Spirit thread."

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Now Danny,

I want to make it clear that my intention in this response is not to develop an apology for misguided theology, but I will say that I felt the need to interject.

Are you implicitly saying that it is impossible to hold to a pneumatology that would allow for the "teaching" aspect of the Holy Spirit's work to not be compatible with Scripture? Does the Holy Spirit teach us about truth? If so, AND THIS IS IMPERATIVE, in what manner(s) is that done?

Here, my friend, is where you and I will most likely part ways (because we have before). For I hold to a view that certainly accepts the possibility of the Holy Spirit's work in one's life apart from (but not excluding) the Word of God. And, if I am correct, you do not.

If Connie was mistaken, but the Holy Spirit still can teach us truth, where does our humanity interfere with the work of the Divine Presence in our lives? I think these two can be diametrically in opposition at times. So, let us work under the operating assumption that if I get "screwed up" doctrinally...it does not mean I have to conclude that the Holy Spirit can not work through my conscience and other means to teach me truth, but it means that I am solely to blame.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Whom the Lord loves, He chastens, and scourges every son he receives.

Hebrews 12:6

Whom the Lord loves, He chastens, and scourges every son he receives.

Hebrews 12:6

Forgive the double post. I went to LCC (Community College) to ask a friend who is now Head of Business Curriculum and who formerly taught Business and Computer courses at our Christian High School to show me how to do cut, copy, and paste. Since this thread is directed to me, I will now print it out and respond eventually.

Am I to assume, Danny, that you have NEVER changed your mind on any doctrinal matter since you first believed (and were baptized?) Then I could assume that you are still drinking milk and have not gotten to the meat course yet. But I don't claim that. I think you HAVE changed your doctrinal position.

I also infer that only the men of your denomination are the ones who you think have received the message. Before the Campbells, who, that you and your Restoration forbears trust to have passed on the correct doctrine bore that message?

Are all the saints throughout the ages now residing in Hell because someone with your philosophy was not there to bear the accepted message and 'baptizo' you?

*************WHO BORE THE MESSAGE BEFORE THE CAMPBELLS?*************

I will still be taking baby steps in learning how to cut, copy, and paste, and ask your forbearance; I will get back with answers eventually.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

By the way, those first two posts were something I had typed long ago and was practicing on. They were copied and pasted! This is going to save me a lot of time!

Typo in my 4th paragraph: 'baptizo you' should read 'baptizo THEM'.

I'll do my practicing someplace else; maybe I'll send them to myself, 'til I perfect it.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Danny,

Thank goodness your greek is better than your french...

"and "wah-la" we have the Scriptures."

Should read as: "voi ala!"

I think :-/

or something to that effect.

Me francais es muy, muy malo!

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Danny,

...and yes, I know you were taking gramatic license.

:-D

It's just that you are almost never wrong... and... well... I gotta take my shots where I sees them!

Your friend in Christ,

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

That's Onomatopoeia, I think.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Bro. Danny,

That's alright. Just never get your dinouement ahead of your climax... I hate when that happens!

Oh, and try a little alliteration to lighten things up sometimes. Just cut out all that hyperbole!!! If I've told you once, I've told you a million times to quit exagerating!

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Danny,

You wrote: 1) I too believe that the Holy Spirit works in our life....but only in matters other than revealed truth. In other words, I believe the Holy Spirit can lead me to call on a person who needs to hear the gospel, or can lead me to the right congregation. However, I do not think the Holy Spirit "teaches" me other than through His word.

I must tell you that I am truly glad to hear you say this. I thought you for a much more "closed" view of the workings of the HS. I do however want to bring up a point of contention though. I can appreciate and understand your unwillingness to use the word "teach" in reference to the workings of the HS, but I think it is born out of a reaction more so than it is a Bibilical response. I, too, am convinced that God's revelation to man has ended in the sense of special revelation. But I feel that the work of the Spirit has not ended in the inspiring of that same revelation...do you? Did the Spirit inspire (past tense, once and for all) or does the Spirit continue to inspire (in the sense of uphold, sustain)? I opt for the latter. Now I am not saying that this "holding together" equals changing of the message of the revelation (may it never be!) but that for this to be inspired to me in the same manner as it was inspired to Alexander Campbell requires the continued work of inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

In that sense then, the Spirit teaches us today, does He not? I think an appropriate descriptive designation of the work of the Spirit in my life is "tutor."

In Scripture, the HS "creates" the church (Acts 2; 1 Cor. 12:13); "unites" us to Christ; "abides" in the church (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19); "builds up" the church; "directs" the church ("oikonomia" in an executive sense - John 14-16; in worship - Phil. 3:3; in witnessing - Acts 1:8; in growth - Acts 8:29; in mission - Acts 13:2). But the HS also creates unity (Eph. 4:3-4); affirms the Messianic Age (Joel 2:28ff & Acts 2); brings reconciliation (Eph. 2:14, 18); makes fellowship (2 Cor. 13:13); enables worship (Acts 2:42).

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Brother Mike:

You have said the following:

"If Connie was mistaken, but the Holy Spirit still can teach us truth, where does our humanity interfere with the work of the Divine Presence in our lives? I think these two can be diametrically in opposition at times. So, let us work under the operating assumption that if I get "screwed up" doctrinally...it does not mean I have to conclude that the Holy Spirit can not work through my conscience and other means to teach me truth, but it means that I am solely to blame."

Now, I agree with Brother Danny about the work of the Holy Spirit and you and I can discuss it someday if you like. However, though I understand what you are saying. You are saying that just because the Holy Spirit is guiding someone "apart from the word of God (but not without it) as you say, does not necessarily mean that they got the message that the Holy Spirit was trying to give them. The Holy Spirit, according to you, may be guiding them in some way apart from the word of God- though you do not describe or seem to know just how He does that. Such guidance would not necessarily circumvent their human frailties and prejudices preventing them from accepting or failing to understanding that guidance. Therefore it would be possible for someone, according to you, to say that they are divinely guided directly by the Holy Spirit and still be wrong and confused about certain things.

Now I do disagree that the Holy Spirit guides us in matters concerning the truth apart from God's word. For that is the very purpose of the word. It was given to guide us into the truth. The Holy Spirit is the one who gave it. If He were also going to come around in some way apart from the word and explain it to us there would be no need for Him to have given it in the first place. He could Just guide us directly and be done with the matter. But according to your theory, even if he had done just that we would be just as confused about the truth as we appear to be with the written word of God. For what is the need of divine revelation in written form if we have divine inspiration within us? But I am not discussing that just now.

I only want to point out that if someone uses this special guidance of the Holy Spirit that you are talking about in a debate as an argument to prove that his or her assertions are correct. And then later learns that they are wrong. It is fair and right to ask them if the Holy Spirit was wrong? Or were they wrong in claiming that the Holy Spirit was guiding them into that error. Now Connie is an example. She has said that she knows that her arguments are right because she has been lead by the Holy Spirit to make them. Then when she admits that she was wrong and justly makes the correction she must also admit either that the Holy Spirit whom she claimed to have guided her into believing the error was wrong or she must admit that the Holy Spirit did not guide her into that error. Now I believe that even you would admit this to be true. For if I say this is true because the Holy Spirit has told me that it is true and then later I find that my words were not the truth. I must then also admit either that the Holy Spirit did not guide me into that error or I must admit that the Holy Spirit was in error if I do not want to admit that he was not guiding me to speak that which was not the truth.

Let me give an example. If I say that baptism is not essential to salvation because the Holy Spirit has illuminated me-to use one of Connies favorite words- and then I am shown that Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" Mark 16:16. And I admit that I was wrong about that matter then I must also admit that my contention that the Holy Spirit guided me into believing that error was also wrong or I must admit that the Holy Spirit guided me into that error. There is no other choice.

Now you know that the subject of the work of the Holy Spirit is a lengthy and complex one. I will tell you now that anything short of an organized discussion of this subject is bound to be fruitless. I have a recommendation concerning how we approach these subjects in the forum. I recommend that we all engage in such discussions but only in the context of an organized discussion with propositions that are clearly written, defined and affirmed with guidelines that require participants to move along to a definite purpose. That we engage in such only after we have agreed to a time frame that is specifically set aside for it and a moderator.

I say all of this because we often get into these complex and important subjects and thrash around trying to respond to each other between work and life's responsibilities. Then over a period of months jumping from one proposition to the other before anyone is able to decide what in the world we are talking about in the first place. I believe that it would be much better for us to revisit some of these subjects in a more organized and orderly fashion. We could pair up and agree to a gentlemanly Christian debate with guidelines and a time set aside- maybe one two or three days- which both parties agree to and sit in front of our computers and discuss it in a connected fashion with clearly written and defined propositions. And one person affirming and the other denying and everyone else just casting in questions and comments along the way. And we agree in advance to a definite ending point. Then afterward everyone can have a wonderful time arguing about the debate. Ha!

Now this is a serious suggestion to the forum. Some of these subjects are too complex and important to just be left to unorganized discussions that are nothing more than the exchange of "pot shots" at each other or a combination of lengthy post that are completely ignored because of their length. Or a series of deliberate misrepresentation over a long period of time so that no one can be clearly held accountable for what they said several months ago etc.

I hope that we can arrange for some of these type discussions and this subject of the work of the Holy Spirit isa subject that deserves this kinf of attention. We therfore should handle it in this fashion.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

By the way, I chose the designation "tutor" because a tutor is someone that is constantly with you, helping you learn in an intimate manner. The tutor is not cold and passive to you as a learner, but has an investment in your continued growth and maturation as a student.

Call me a hairy-tick if you will but this is closest to what I see in Scripture.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Michael Demastus:

I have not been ignoring you, honest. Several of your posts have interested me, especially one on this thread concerning special revelation, in the case of Alexander Campbell, and later, on the Holy Spirit's role as 'tutor'.

Can you explain further your position on those?

Thank you for your forbearance.

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000