I would like the opinion and advice from others in the Forum...

How much money do you feel (as a congregation) is necessary to keep in the bank?

Please be specific in you answers... emailing privately if you wish.

Here is our scenario:

We have an attendance of about seventy, a mortgage balance of about 60K with about 40K in equity.

Our offering income is about $3,000 a month, and our expenses are about $2,500, which in "business" terms, would indicate a positive cash flow of $500.

We are considering "big things" in the near future, like bulk mailings, community outreach, youth activities and improvements, etc.

We have about $4,500 in checking and about $4,000 in savings.

Whenever "expenditures" are considered for some of the above mentioned programs, concerns are raised that we ought not to "dip into" this $8,500, especially the "savings" which is "untouchable".

When I ask "why" we need so much in the bank, the best answer I get is "what if one of our members had a fire, or other great material loss... it is there to help them..."

When I see the things that it could be used for, and the great spiritual needs in our community, I think Jesus would not be impressed if He came tonight, and all we had to show him was a wad of cash we had been sitting on... and I think about the parable of the talents...

Am I being unreasonable? What are your thoughts?

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Answers

D. Lee....

I agree with your level headed response (I know this would shock Nelta....you know....you being a woman and all that. LOL!!)

I've noticed some interesting similarities as I've followed this thread from the sidelines.

1) Most of the congregations being referred to with the money, are older (member age wise) congregations.

2) There appears to be little desire to understand why the people feel that way.

3) There seems to be more desire to "tell" rather than to "teach."

Like I said, it would probably be informative to try and find out "why" people feel the way they do.

In my 18 years of ministry experience, it has been my general finding, that people of this age feel this way, because most are old enough to remember "the Depression." They know all too well what it's like to be without.

That fear then drives their need for a security blanket, if you will.

Is that fear right?? Didn't say that. I do, however, feel it is understandable.

Precher Boy, my recommendation to you would be to sit down and have a discussion (not a telling). Ask them why they feel the way they do. Then explain from a biblical viewpoint what drives you.

My feeling is....a good compromise could be reached. You could understand and appreciate their need for some security. You could then ask them "Do we need that much security??"

I'm going through a touch of this right now. We have $25,000 in the bank and that increases about $2000 per month. Someone recently made a suggestion that we pay off an $18,000 loan we have on our new paved parking lot. Sounds good, and it has some good fiscal reasons for doing so.

The elders, wisely in my estimation, decided to table a decision until next month as they want to gather some facts and figures concerning the current and expected income and expenses.

Overall Preacher Boy, you must ask..."Is it worth the unity of the congregation??"

I'm sure you would agree....it is not. Especially if you work "with them"....as opposed to "against them."

In Christ,

-- Anonymous, March 16, 2000

Yo, Preacher Boy (love that name)

Looks like you have quite an uphill struggle ahead of you, one I wish you good fortune in fighting. I feel that you are on the right track in your thinking.

It's one thing to be a good steward of the finances God has entrusted a church with, but we have to realize - it is still HIS money. If it is not being used for his work - it is being wasted. I could see keeping $1,000 or so held back for the unforseen, but that would be about it. I don't know from what region and cultural status your church is composed of, but most people who own homes have insurance for fire damage - just like your church does.

Money in the bank has always been the security blanket people grasp for, but that ought not be so for the church. I believe Jesus taught that we should store up our treasures in heaven, not in the First National Bank of Where Ever. Maybe recounting the story of Abraham, and how he left everything behind in order to walk by faith according to what God had promised, might open up the bank account a little. Get the leaders to look down the road - to take the long view. After all, Abraham never lived to see all the promises God made to him come true. He saw his son, but that was it. Shoot, he even had a BUY a piece of the Promised Land in order to bury his wife - yet he still walked by faith, not by sight.

And if no one can be convinced to use that which you have - call some other churches and see if they can use it. Few are the churches I have been associated with could boast of a $500 per month overage & $8,500 in the bank. Your opportunities with those resources are almost limitless - if you are willing to put it in the Lord's hands.

My advice....... Stick to your convictions, Brother

-- Anonymous, March 13, 2000

Only once did a serve in any leadership position of any form in a structure (pre-elder appointing) that allowed me to be privy to the "philosophy" of the money handling or finance or whatever you may call it. This was with a church plant of a kind. So I can only offer a sample set of one, and that is in a new church rapidly growing.

The debate (sometimes) comes down stewartship vs. walking in faith. When are you trusting God to provide, and when are you just simply practicing bad stewartship?

In the case at Northeast, we practiced deficit spending. We averaged outspending our contribution every week, on purpose. We started with about $35,000 in the bank, hired two evangelists, and spent down the $35,000. About the time the $35,000 ran out, our contributions were meeting "necessary" expenses, with no fluff. On faith, we started the process of hiring three interns/apprentices part time for our college ministries and teen ministry. Before they were added to the payroll, a one-time visitor liked what we were doing, and gave unsolicited $25,000. We also had a special contribution in an attempt to "prefund" the interns. We got about 9 months of their salaries in that contribution. That freed the majority $25,000 for other spending and we started deficit spending again.

A commonly cited statistic is that you "need" one full-time minister for every 100 members. We hired two full-time evangelists when we had 60 members. 11 months later, we were at 200+ and still growing rapidly.

-- Anonymous, March 13, 2000

Great testimony, Mark

Walking by faith works, as long as we allow God "do His thing".

By doing so, you'll never see the "righteous forsaken nor the seed hungering for bread".

-- Anonymous, March 13, 2000

I read your post on thechristianchurch.com and would like to respond privately (just in case someone I know may read it). I am in a similar circumstance that you are in, maybe even worse. I serve a small rural church of mainly older retired people, yet giving is quite good and I praise them for this. The church and parsonage are paid for. We have around $25,000 in the bank and it goes up ever month $500-$1,000. I too believe that this money could be used much more wisely and I think the Lord must cringe to see this happen in His church. Yet, when I bring up a worthy cause, I usually get the response something like, "well you know many individuals give to those other than the church." I do not doubt that they are giving people, but why can't the church itself give? I brought before them a very worthy mission (who happened to have grown up in this particular church) and after several attempts, they decided to give a one time gift of $100 or $250 (sorry I can't remember off hand). This to me is sad. Their fear, I believe, comes from the past when they had financial difficulty and many of them lived through very difficult times. Also considering the area and age of the people, I think they want savings. Maybe some savings is o.k. in this situation, but I wish I could get them to see other needs and help in an area they are able to help in! Thank you for bringing up the issue and letting me vent:) I will pray for you and ask for your prayers as well. Anonymous P.S. You can post this if you want, just leave off my name- God Bless

-- Anonymous, March 13, 2000

I am blessed where I am at. The subject of money has never come up in 6 years. The cry here is get the best, not how much does it cost.

The Church needes to walk out in faith. We need to think God size, not man size. We need to have dreams and projects that only God can do. We need to go where we have never gone, with money we don't have and talents we don't posses! Only then can God work. When we empty ourselves of ourselves then God can use us!

Someone asked me once, "What makes you qualifed to be a church planter?" I'm not qualified, that is what makes me qualified. You see God can use a person or a congregation that is willing to put their trust in Him. To allow our awesome God to work.

When someone brings up the subject of money, they have already illiminated faith. Why else would you ask such a question? I think it is time that your congregation Preacher Boy walks out in faith allowing God to take you where you have never gone, with talents you don't posses and money you don't have.

-- Anonymous, March 13, 2000

Preacher Boy:

I am happy to respond to your question and I intend for this response to be lengthy. I hope that you do not mind. For my purpose is to appeal to the very word of God with the hope in my heart that my answer will be helpful to the work that you are doing for our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ and for the saints of our Lord who labor with you.

I want to begin by saying that you seem to have a congregation of faithful Brethren who Love the Lord and their giving is truly commendable. I also suggest that you not be too Critical of their desire to be wise with what I am accustom to calling the Lords Money. Now all of us are required to be good stewards of our blessings. (Luke 16:1-14). And we must be found faithful as good Stewarts. (1 Peter 4:10; 1Cor. 4:1,2) by not being wasteful of goods. (Luke 16:1). We will someday render an account of our stewardship (Romans 14:12) and we must be careful not to hoard for our own security (Luke 12:13-21). Now it seems that the Brethren understand these things for themselves as individuals. This is the reason that they have been faithful in their giving of their means. However, it appears that once the Money has been given that they appear to have forgotten that it is given for a purpose. They must not forget that the Church treasury is not the ultimate destination of the Lords money that they have in faith returned to him from the bounty of the blessings that he has given them. The ultimate purpose of this money is to support the Mission of the Church. The Church of Christ is engaged in the greatest mission under heaven. Therefore I will discuss this subject in reference to that mission and in relation to how the Church in the New Testament used the Money that was brought and laid at the apostles feet and that was given every first day of the week (1 Corinthians 16:1,2).

Now this great work of the Church in accomplishing its Divine mission must be kept ever before our face. Our hearts must be in that work and remember, Where your heart is there will your treasure be also. So if we are ever to make appropriate use of the Lords money we must be sure that this great mission is where that money is expended. This mission is the salvation of the souls of men and it is an altogether SPIRITUAL mission. We must ever be mindful that the church is not a social club that collects dues to spend in the entertainment of its members but rather it is a divine institution that has been commissioned by God to seek and save that which was lost (Luke 19:10) and to be the pillar and ground of the truth (1Tim3: 15). Therefore this mission involves three great divisions of labor so to speak. The first and foremost of these is the evangelization of the world with the blessed gospel of Christ (Matthew 28:19,20; Mark 16:15,16). The second is the edification or building up of the church (Acts 20:28; Heb. 3:12-14; 10:24-25; Col. 3:15,16; Eph. 5:19; 1 Thess. 5:12-14). The third is benevolence or ministry to the poor. (Romans 12:13; Romans 15:25-27; 1 Cor.16: 15).

Now when the Church is busy doing these things the proper spending of the Lords money is a natural and unavoidable result and the blessing of God resides on that congregation such that it will grow spiritually even if it never grows in numbers. For not all will accept the truth of the gospel in every place but we must be faithful whether we are in a place where many obey the gospel or if we are in a place filled with silversmiths that resist the gospel of Christ.

Please let me suggest, in kindness and respect for my beloved brethren who labor with you that the problem is not the money in the bank. The problem resides in a bankruptcy of the heart for lost souls who are dying daily without hope and without God. The problem is a bankruptcy of the heart that has little concern for the edification of the weak members of the body of Christ. The problem is a bankruptcy of the heart that has no feeling for the poor saints among us who can barely make a living. If we say that we do not have any such poor saints among us then we only prove that we are not evangelizing among the poor because they have nothing to offer us and they might embarrass us coming to the worship in their rags.

Now please do not misunderstand me. I do not mean to imply that the good brethren that are laboring with you are conscious of this bankruptcy. For they appear to be conscious of the treasury and how much is there and oblivious of the suffering lost souls that surround them.

Therefore brother I recommend that you take them with you out into the community to teach the gospel. It will not cost any money to do this. Then let them see the lost and needy and those who so desperately need the gospel of Christ. Get them involved in working and when that work becomes their passion you will no longer have the problem of TOO MUCH MONEY IN THE BANK. But as long as you, preacher boy, are out doing the work yourself and YOU are seeing the needs and YOU are passionate they will continue to not comprehend the need to spend money where their hearts are not found.

If I have been unjust in my accusation against these brethren it is only because I am responding to your words and I do not know them personally and therefore cannot prove that such is really their problem. But I know the scriptural principle that where your heart is there will your treasure be also. Their treasure is in the bank and therefore it appears that their hearts are there as well. Now I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it.

They are good Christians, brother, but they need to be lead gently and wisely out into the fields that are white unto harvest and they need to be in the homes of the shut ins and in the hospitals where their fellowmen are suffering and in the projects where drugs are rampant preaching Christ to a dying world. They need to be heavily involved in the edification of the church and the poor widows and orphans among you. Then their hearts, because they are good faithful Christians who love, will be forever shifted from the bank account to the broken and weary souls of their fellowmen and fellow saints of God who need them desperately. When this happens the money will flow in and out of the treasury as the tide of the great oceans rolls in and out against the shore.

As far as how much should be kept in the bank the work will determine that for you. If you have many widows indeed or expect to have many that may soon become the care of the church or orphans that will need an education some day it may be wise to be preparing for the church to meet those needs that you know is approaching. But to hoard money in the bank for no specific purpose or intended use is contrary to all that the word of God teaches concerning the mission of the church. Also if you are expecting these men to spend this money on the entertainment of the church with all sorts of programs such as sending the youth out to by pizza or pay for some kind of skating party etc. Then I say thank God those brothers are at least keeping the money in the bank until they see the genuine work of the church actually being done. When I see the Church spending money on various forms of entertainment in their worship it makes me sad indeed. For I know that their hearts are surely not in the right place.

I hope that this has been helpful to you in response to your question. I would like very much to go into each of these three areas of the work of the church in some detail but I have probably said too much already. I will however leave you with another passage to keep in mind. (Acts 4: 23-35). Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 14, 2000

Now this is a sticky wicket!!!

What to say, what to say?

Now let me preface this by saying that Duane invited me here to hear my thoughts on this issue. I guess I might be a little more passionate on this subject if it hit a litle closer to home. But, fortunately, this is not really a subject that hits our congregation hard.

One thing I'd like to address is the parable of the talents... you said that your congregation has some in the bank... that is O.K.

Matthew 25: "26. "His master replied, `You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27. Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest."

..but obviously not the best-case senario.

There is an excitement generated by "flying by the seat of one's own pants". It is an adrenaline rush like no other!!! What I am talking about is operating on FAITH! There is security in operating in the knowledge that whatever happens, "I have something saved to keep me safe." However, I do not believe that to be testing God's generosity. (Like we find in Malachi 3:...

"8. "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, `How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. 9. You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. 10. Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."

I encourage you to encourage your congregation to "Step out on Faith" to see what God has in store for you! As long as you rely on the knowlege of your own power (your savings account) you do not rely on the power of God!

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 14, 2000

I guess I am a tad bit more conservative than most of the responders here.

James, you say:

"When someone brings up the subject of money, they have already illiminated faith. Why else would you ask such a question? I think it is time that your congregation Preacher Boy walks out in faith allowing God to take you where you have never gone, with talents you don't posses and money you don't have."

May I ask you why you believe that when someone brings money, they have eliminated faith?

We have gone through a building process, that is still not quite complete, though almost. Nothing fancy, just your basic metal (to start with) building. Now we are currently purchasing property adjoining ours (which by the way we are still paying on). We have 20,000.00 in the bank for the specific reason of purchasing new land.

Maybe my conservativeness (is that a word?) comes from the situation our local congregation is in. We are a mostly Military congregation. We are not self-supporting. Our local body has just now in our giving begun to exceed that of our outside support. When you are supported by others, you are looked at more closely, and rightly so.

Our problem comes in when...once you have taught giving and people start giving...Uncle Sam says it is time to move on.

I agree with Lee..."The ultimate purpose of this money is to support the Mission of the Church."

We don't have any money just put away for a rainy day. If there is a savings...it is for a specific purpose.

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000

Oops, that should have been...

May I ask you why you believe that when someone brings UP money...

-- Anonymous, March 15, 2000