How do you preach to the lost? When you preachers are teaching the sinners whom do you seek to bring them to?

1) Do you bring them to yourself with your title and education? In your newspaper ads do you describe yourselve...possibly calling yourself *Doctor* or some other title? Minister, perhaps?

2) Do you seek to bring them to your Church? Do you have a picture in the ad of your Church building ? Does it say *Church of Christ, or some other name..with the address of the Church given? Is that what you seek to draw and convert sinners to?

I was reading this morning about Philip and the eunuch. Philip taught him, Jesus. When they came up out of the water, and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing did he think he must go back home and *plant* a Church, or join himself to one already in existence? Did Philip tell him that now he must plant a Church and put himself under the authority of an Eldership? Did he teach him anything about now he must become a part of something else?

When the eunuch was baptized did he think he was baptized into the Church of Christ or the Baptist or some other named group? Or did he simply believe he had been baptized to have his sins forgiven, thus accessing the grace of God, thus added to the body of Christ, by Christ?

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Answers

Nelta....

You are right!!

I've been wrong in all these years of believing that when Paul went to each church he appointed elders in each church.

I see now that must be a misprint because as you have pointed out numerous times, elders and just older men. I mean, why do you need to "appoint" older men??

I was also wrong in believing when Paul wrote Timothy and Titus and instructed them to set the church in order, that there must be some order to the church...i.e., that as Corinthians says, "Things must be done decently and in order."

I was also wrong in believing that the qualities listed by Paul in Timothy and Titus was for the purpose of appointing quality men to leadership.

Or at least I was wrong in not understanding this was for the first century church only.

I was also wrong in understanding that the Bible told us everything we needed to know, not necessarily everything. I got to admit I never saw Acts 8 the way you did. I always thought it was just showing how Christianity was spread to all parts of the word including Africa. I didn't realize Philip should have given him a complete treatise on the chariot about all aspects of N.T. Christianity. My bad!!

I must confess that I have been wrong about all these things clearly written in the N.T. and that Nelta was God's neo-orthodox gift to help me to see more clearly.........

NOT!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Real nice diatribe Brett.....but just as Nelta....you answer none of the Scriptural affirmations.

What do I have against Nelta?? Simple. She is a neo-orthodox theologian who does not take seriously the Word of God and even questions it's inspiration and inerrancy.

Her view of the church is as far as the east is from the west when it comes to the N.T.

When confronted with Scripture.....by me or anyone else, she has consistently ignored them.

I have nothing against her personally.....but everytime she spouts her false doctrine, I'll be the first in line (unless Lee beats me) to confront her about it.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

In other words Brett....I know what is guiding Nelta....and it is not from anything that resembles the doctrine of the New Testament.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

By the way Brett.....where in the world do you get the idea that 1 Cor. 14 is just for "get togethers?"

That's the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest Paul was not describing the conduct of the congregational worship in light of the abuses by the Corinthian Christians.

And while we are on the subject, so we know from whence you come, do you agree with Nelta that there is no such thing as congregational oversight by the Elders of the church, appointed by the congregation??

Or do you agree with Nelta, that was for the first century church only and today elders mean just "older men??"

Do you agree with Nelta that there is no word in the N.T. for "authority?".....therefore, again, there is no such thing as elder oversight of a congregation???

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Let's twist again, eh Danny? That section in I Corinthians 14 has to do with everybody participating in the get-togethers "decently and in order." It has nothing to do with watching a professional Christian do his thing for two hours on Sunday.

If you actually listened to what Nelta said, she's talking about people who profess their church building and its people rather than Jesus Christ because it's a lot safer to talk about "St. John's Methodist" at work by the printer with others than it is to talk frankly about our Lord and Savior.

If the shoe fits, wear it, Danny. If the body of believers with whom you congregate doesn't resemble at all her descriptions, why do you get so uptight and defensive (and offensive) about it?

In the meantime, I agree with Nelta. Too many "Christians" spread the gospel of their denomination or their pastor (cuz he's really cool!) or "Dr. So-and-so who trained with Wigglesworth" or some other aspect of their church rather than Jesus. And I'm sure you know what she speaks of here, maybe you just don't like Nelta and so you sidestep it to bring up older issues between the two of you. But in a forum of ideas, I agree with her idea here - it ain't about bringing people to ourselves - it's about bringing people to our Lord. Which Paul and Peter did by getting in the lives and face of people personally and did not just rely on slick advertising of some aspect other than Jesus Christ.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

My response to this post is somewhat simpler:

How do you preach to the lost?

By proclaiming the Gospel.

When you preachers are teaching the sinners whom do you seek to bring them to?

Jesus.

1) Do you bring them to yourself with your title and education?

No.

In your newspaper ads do you describe yourselve...possibly calling yourself *Doctor* or some other title? Minister, perhaps?

Preacher, minister, or evangelist.

2) Do you seek to bring them to your Church?

Yes... well, our church "building".

Do you have a picture in the ad of your Church building ?

Sometimes. It helps for readers to identify the location where the Church gathers.

Does it say Church of Christ, or some other name..with the address of the Church given?

Yes. Obviously it helps for them to know where we meet, and where we can be reached.

Is that what you seek to draw and convert sinners to?

No. (Unless you mean in the indirect, "physical" way. We try to persuade their minds to bring their bodies so their ears might listen and their hearts be converted.)

I was reading this morning about Philip and the eunuch. Philip taught him, Jesus. When they came up out of the water, and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing did he think he must go back home and *plant* a Church, or join himself to one already in existence?

The Scripture does not tell us. Unless you rely on Dionne Warwick's Psychic Network, you have no way of knowing either.

Did Philip tell him that now he must plant a Church and put himself under the authority of an Eldership? Did he teach him anything about now he must become a part of something else?

Once again, Scriptures do not say. Thus it is presumptious, and perhaps disingenuous, to build an argument from silence.

When the eunuch was baptized did he think he was baptized into the Church of Christ or the Baptist or some other named group?

It depends on what was in Phillip's sermon.

Or did he simply believe he had been baptized to have his sins forgiven, thus accessing the grace of God, thus added to the body of Christ, by Christ?

We do not know.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

Danny,

I Corinthians 14:28 - "How is it then brethren? Whenever you come together..."

I used the word "get-together," but I think there's little difference between what I said and what the word says here. I also read the word "whenever" - I take that to imply that their problem of everyone rushing forward to give what they had in their heart happened in several occasions, not just "congregational worship." And where do you find "congregational worship" as the context here? I don't read those words. From what I read, their get-togethers (sounds better than "come-togethers") little resembled the typical Sunday worship service we see today.

Regarding the appointment of elders, they are appointed as episkope, or "over-seers." I don't see that as a rulership hierarchy, but more as watchful with an eye toward spiritual growth of younger believers.

I'm a bit unclear what you meant by "you answer none of the Scriptural affirmations." If you're referring to your comments about Timothy, Paul, etc. I saw them as having little to do with Nelta's point. You bring a lot of history to your responses to Nelta, so it's often hard to weed through your history and your response to her first writing. She's provocative, but I see little wrong with that.

I know you pastor a church. Let me ask you: have you ever heard anyone selling you or the people to unbelievers and not Jesus Christ? I've been in a lot of churches through the moves we've had in our life. I can tell you - it happens all of the time. And I think it tends to bring in people who don't really want Jesus, or if they do, they like the milk-toast version of our Lord, not the One who is in your face. I seen it water down the congregation, to the point where getting passionate about Jesus Christ even in church is looked upon with an odd glance.

If this doesn't apply where you work, Danny, then don't fret about it. Praise God it's not your issue. But it is a problem in the body of Christ. And the sad thing is that sometimes this is pushed by even the pastor himself, to which Nelta referred. I've seen it and it threw up walls in the city rather than melt them.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2000

A very simple reply to the church,Ephesians chapter 4 verse 12 the comming together of the chirch is for the edification of the saints!! We some how have lost this in our church"s today, and have made the mistake of thinking that church is for getting people saved,and though we should always give the oppertunity for one to come to Christ we should never gear the service to the sinner, it is for the saints to be edified!! That is why I belive that so many christians today are walking around half dead, because they keep hearing that they have to be saved,Lets move on and teach the saints the word of GOD and we will see people who dont compromise, and wont be thrown to and fro with every wind of doctrine,then the world will see what it means to be a true follower of Jesus Christ!! Amen!!!

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000

Brother Tom,

Me thinks you hit that nail on the head. Sunday Worship Services are for just that - Worship. One cannot worship the Lord if he doesn't know Him yet. Preach & teach the Word for the building up of the body, worship in word & song, pray fervently, and observe the Lord's Supper.

"Sinners" services can be held or conducted through private sessions or even Sunday School type classes - but the major focus of Sunday Worship is to bring praise unto the Lord and "build" the body of believers - not "bore" them.

Brother Mark

-- Anonymous, March 17, 2000