It seems that some think love is the highest calling. That might be true, but often not as defined on this board. Love as defined on this board is "tolerance"....i.e., "we are all going the same way, we just have different views." (BTW....that's the basis of Hinduism and the New Age Movement.....not Christianity.)

As I said in another post, I believe when it comes to truth, the thrill is not always in the hunt. "The Kill" is also thrilling, and once we have established what the truth is.....we must not budge regardless of the shifting sands of expediency and tolerance.

One of the driving forces in my life as both a preacher and a scholar is the following statement by Dr. Jack Cottrell of Cincinnati Bible Seminary. I think he very correctly sums up the meaning of the 1st and 2nd greatest commandments as well us underscoring the importance of objective truth.

Each and every preacher would do well.....to keep this in mind. Here is the quote......

"When one is totally committed to the search for truth, it is inevitable that.....he....will exhibit a spirit which some will interpret as narrow and dogmatic. I do not apologize for my belief that there IS such a thing as truth, and that it CAN be known.

Truth by its very nature is narrow, since it rules out the validity of all opposing views. Also, truth by its very nature will be offensive to those who hold opposing views and do not want to give them up.

Love for truth is an aspect of love for God, which is the greatest commandment (Matt. 22:37-38). Loving God includes loving Him with 'all your mind.' Loving God and thus His truth is more important than loving people, which is only the second greatest commandment (Matt. 22:39)." Jack Cottrell

So, there you have it. You may not agree with it. And you may not agree with me. But at least now, you know from whence I operate.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

Answers

Response to The True Greatest Commandments.......In Perspective

Danny,

I don't know if you meant this to be a thread, or just an announcement of your "position". I think it can make a beautiful thread, however, so I will treat it as such.

I don't intend to argue an alternative view, and certainly not an opposing view. Just present my view.

Language is such a weak means of communication of the truth, IMHO. Look at the various ways the "greatest commandments" are expressed. Jesus gives one set (a set of two commands) in Matthew 22:37-39. We are to love God and our neighbor. Paul writes in Galatians 5:14 "the entire law is summed up in a single command: `Love your neighbor as yourself' ". Micah prophesizes what can be seen as yet another "He [God] has showed you, O man, what is good and what does the Lord require of you? To act justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). A naive man or fool asks which one is it, the wise looks for the common kernel of truth revealed.

If the common truth is not self-apparent (as it will be to some of you), a key is understanding the Hebrew word behind "mercy". This word, "hesed" if I recall correctly, can be rendered "love", "devotion from God", "devotion to God" or "mercy". A linguist would tell you that a writer using a word with multiple meanings, or at least multiple meanings in another language, may mean all of the meanings at once. In the case of mercy (hesed), I believe these multiple meanings reveal something about what God means by mercy. I believe that if one truly loves God, then one practices mercy to one's fellow man. Similarly, one who truly loves and practices mercy to one's fellow man loves God, that is, without love for God, one cannot sincerely love one's neighbor. When Paul wrote Galatians 5:14, I believe that he, a Hebrew scholar, had this understanding in mind. Matthew 25:31-46, I John (esp chapters 3-5), and Isaiah 58:1-11 all (at least seem to) affirm this viewpoint. One cannot separate love for God from love for one's neighbor.

As for Micah 6:8, we see an explanation of loving our neighbor and loving God. If we love our neighbor, we will act justly towards him (the root of justly in Micah 6:8 refers to behavior that reflects an attitude of maintaining right relationships and fixing broken ones). If we love God, we will walk with Him, humbly, in the paths He sets for us. And to love mercy: this is the bridge between justice and faithfulness. Mercy partners with justice to help us maintain harmony (justice may require punishment/retribution, but often that can result in hardening of hearts and attitudes. That is where mercy steps in.). Mercy also expresses the attitude we are to take toward our fellow man: because God loves you, I love you.

Now, I am not making a counter argument to Danny, though it might seem that way so far. No, at this point of my case, we must remember who God is. God is the creator of all. He knows what is best for us, and His Word records that. Because I love my neighbor, I will, in love, inform him of God's will in a matter, and express God's love to him and offer to him the gospel of Jesus Christ. Because I love my brother, I will lovingly, non-judgingly call him to repent of sin I may catch him in. That doesn't mean I tell him he is going to hell (that would be judging), but I use scripture to show him what God says and ask him what he believes God will do if he doesn't change his course. The latter is not judging, no matter what the "agents of tolerance" tell you. All these I do to introduce others to God's love and forgiveness, or to help others preserve their pursuit of relationship with God.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

Response to The True Greatest Commandments.......In Perspective

Mark:

Amen!

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

Response to The True Greatest Commandments.......In Perspective

Mark Win.

I think you have a good understanding of Danny's point and I see no contradictions to worry about.

I would like to point out something you said though, that there may be a problem with. You said: "language is such a weak means of communication of the truth". I think you need to reconsider that statement.

Neither myself, nor anyone I know, possess telepathic abilities to communicate - therefore language is ALL We HAVE. Even when God or an angel appeared to men in dreams or visions, those dreams and visions were passed on by language among men. Language should be considered a gift of God, and as such, it has to be Good because all gifts of God are good. And God verified this because He chose language, both written and spoken, to make His will and Salvation known to the world.

As I assume you are aware, Liberal Theologians use those very words (the argument that language is a bad conveyor of thought)as a way of casting doubt upon the Scriptures.

The Bible is either the inerrant, authoritative Words of God in it's original language or else we have no religion, no faith, nor salvation. Paul said, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God". If what we have heard & read in the Bible is not the accurately, conveyed-through-language, Word - then we are doomed to death & destruction because none of it can be trusted.

Enough of my Soapbox,

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

Response to The True Greatest Commandments.......In Perspective

Brother Mark Wisniewski:

AMEN AND AMEN! I do not believe that Mark Winstead really meant what he said about Language being the weakest form of communication. I actually know of no other form of communication among human beings that is stronger than language. God surely chose language as his means of communicating with us. Look at the brute animals who have no language at all. Do they have a better form of communication. Language and reason are among the things that demonstrate that we are made in the image of God and it is the very means whereby we come to know God. In fact it is God's will "through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (1Cor. 1:18).

God's word, which is delivered to us in the language which he has given us, is consider by him to be very powerful!

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

I now give a short list of scriptures that show God's use of language to be very powerful. It is not language that is the problem in communication. It is the misuse of language by those who have chosen to lie and deceive that make communication difficult. It is Satan's tactic of turning of this powerful weapon of language against us that makes communication difficult. It is the confusion created by the evil one who is seeking to destroy our souls that wants us to give up on our God given ability to communicate with each other and worse yet the ability of God to communicate with us through His word. I do not think that Mark meant to say what he appears to be saying but, just in case he did, I offer a list of passages that make the power of God to communicate to us in language his will very evident to the thoughtful and discerning.

For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth. Ps. 33:4

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Ps 119:11

So shall I have wherewith to answer him that reproacheth me: for I trust in thy word. Ps 119:42

Stablish thy word unto thy servant, who is devoted to thy fear. Ps. 119:38

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John12:48

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John 15:3

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts2:40

And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, Act 4:29

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Acts 4:31

But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Titus 1:3

Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Titus 1:9

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. James 1:18

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. James 1:21

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Peter 1:23

"Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord. Though your sins be as scharlet they shall be as white as snow and though they be red like crimson they shall be as wool." Isa. 1:18.

Let us go to the word of God and reason with Him that our sins may be forgiven and become as white as snow.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

I didn't say language was the "weakest" form of communication. Just a weak form. Yet, I would agree, it is the best we have, and certainly didn't mean otherwise. All human communication is flawed.

In light of how some are seem to be interpretting what I said about language, let me rephrase it. Language is a less than perfect form of communication, though it may be the best we have for mass communication (certainly "actions speak louder than words", but actions often don't speak too broadly, God sending His son to die for us being one exception to the broadly rule). Language imperfections are what make "proof texting" so dangerous. Yet if we study passages both prayerfully and in context, both written and cultural, I believe that God's message, His Word, shines through. Also, we know that the Bible is self-consistent, so we (should) study the whole of God's inspired word in order to gain full understanding, Old Testament included (different covenants, but the same God).

It may worthy topic for another thread, but the more I learn about the Hebrew language, the more awed by God I become. I have heard it called "the language of God". The exposition on "hesed" I gave exposes just a part of the beauty of it -- the English language doesn't capture that. I hope one day I can study Hebrew in much more detail for myself.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Mark Win.

Brother, you have restored my confidence in you. You and Brother Lee are both right in the fact that the problem with language is "operator error", not in what was given.

Like yourself, I love going back to the original Hebrew & Greek texts when reading & studying the Bible. As ancient languages, they are much more descriptive and vivid than anything modern English can offer.

Another good Hebrew word to investigate is "yatsar" as found in Genesis 1 & 2. "Yatsar" is a potter's term that describes the spinning & making of a piece of pottery. Genesis says that God made "yatsared" man from the dust of the earth. Gives one the mental picture of God sitting down, molding, forming, and shaping man until He got it just right. Beautiful !

That picture sure stands in the way of the Calvinist ideas some are spreading in other threads. How can man be TOTALLY Depraved if God took such concern & care when He made man in the beginning.

Something to chew on,

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Mark and Mark:

What are your opinions on the Bible Code?

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

I have trouble believing that God would hide truth like the proponents would have us think.

I don't know if there are any Star Trek Voyager watchers here, but there was perfect episode that reflects my attitude on things like the Bible Code and other such things. The episode's name was something like "Conspiracy. In it, the former Borg, Seven of Nine, "reactivated" her implants for processing vast volumes of data. She reviewed all logs of Voyager and the Marqi (sp?). It was more data than she could handle anymore without other removed Borg implants and she started seeing patterns of conspiracy everywhere, when there was no conspiracy.

I think the Bible Code stuff is like that. Give me a big enough computer and enough idle time, and I bet you I can find the entire transcript of the Gettysburg address buried in the Bible for you, all by taking out one letter at a time using some pattern for picking the letters.

Hmmm, interesting how one thread can evolve.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Connie,

You speaketh Greek to me.......By "Bible Code", I assume you are referring to the nonsensical idea of transposing the words of scripture into numeric code in order to find hidden meanings? If so, I think I just answered your question.

I firmly believe that God has told us EVERYTHING we need to know in the Scriptures, without having to hide things from us in a secret code. Looking for hidden codes in the Bible reminds me of the days of the Beatles when everybody started playing the "White Album" backwards in order to hear Hidden messages (anybody besides me old enough to remember that). Am I to suppose that if we convert the Bible to binary code and play it backwards that we will be told that "Paul is dead"? When put that way, the idea of a hidden code really sounds kind of silly, doesn't it?

With that said, there are specific cases of numerology in the Bible that needs to be studied. Throughout scripture, certain numbers always mean certain things. For instance: 7 is the perfect number of God (7 days of creation for example) 10 is a number of completeness (passing of time is usually given in increments of 10 (10, 100, 1000, 10000)

12 is a number representing God's people (12 tribes, 12 Disciples) 40 is a number of God's probation (40 days of Flood, 40 years in the Wilderness)

Multiples of these numbers are also used to accentuate their meaning, such as the 144,000 in the ThroneRoom in Revelation. Groups such as the Jehovahs Witnesses have taken that as a literal number, which is not the meaning at all intended by the Apostle John. 144,000 is simply 12 X 12 = 144 (the number of God's people in both the Old & New Testament) multiplied by 100 (10 X 10) a number of total completeness. 144,000 means nothing more than all of God's people for the entirety of time.

Recognizing this proper hermeneutic approach toward analyizing numbers as used in scripture, would help bring about a better understanding of what the Book of Revelation is all about.

Here's a thought, a fellow I work with (a non-practicing Christian) just asked me a question: "What good is the Bible if I can't pick it up, read it, and understand it?" Out of the mouth of Babes, hey ?

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Thank you.

That has been my opinion, but I want to test all spirits.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

There was an article in an excellent acapella CoC publication, "Does God Exist?", recently which addressed this issue of Bible codes.

Actually they had an article, Bible Codes: Real or Fake? by John N. Clayton, and a book review on the book, The Bible Code. They have those both online and I have hotlinked them for your convenience (they open in a new browser window).

The basic upshot of the two was that the scholarship was very shoddy: they decided the patterns they were going to look for before they began looking, so it was kind of a "Begging the Question" fallacy; and people researching into this supposed phenomenon came up with the same kind of situations using Melville's "Moby Dick," including the names of the researchers! They also brought out the point that people would much rather find hidden meaning in the Bible than believe its clear message.

Hope this helps!

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000