"Josephus, the Jewish historian, was familiar with Parthia as a major dwelling place of the Ten tribes. He declares: "But then the entire body of Israel (the Ten Tribes) remained in that country (they did not return to Palestine); wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated by numbers" (Atiq. of the Jews, bk.xi, ch. v, 2).

Other marks of Israel.

1) New Language,

(Isa 28:11 KJV) "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."

2) New name,

(Isa 62:2 KJV) "And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name." How about...beriyth'am, which translates Covenant Tribe, or Beriyth 'iysh, which, according to the Hebrew English Lexicon, modern day spelling is BRIT ISH. Look it up for yourself. I did at the San Mateo, CA Public Library, Third Ave, San Mateo, CA.

3) Christain,

(Isa 9:8 KJV) "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel."

4) Christian,

(Hosea 1:10 KJV) "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God."

(Hosea 1:11 KJV) "Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."

5) Dwelling in the Isles,

(Isa 49:1 KJV) "Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name."

(Isa 49:2 KJV) "And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;"

(Isa 49:3 KJV) "And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

There is much more to be added to this list but this should suffice for the monment.

We are Israel and all others are included through Jesus Christ.

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

Answers

Mark, Ever since we three women questioned you and some of the brothers here kindly pointed out what the heretical doctrine you are here pushing and pushing and pushing...British Israelism...I have been reading and reading in secular literature about this most vicious of errant doctrines. And what I am learning distresses me no end. As a graduate of an excellent Christian university in 1990 at age 55, and Bible student all of my life, as well as having been a Baptist minister's wife for many years, I am well-trained in the Bible and theology, hermeneutics and cults. I say to you from the heart, that what you are trying to push here is heresy and is a misuse of the sacred scriptures to no good purpose. Please ask yourself WHY you persist in this fashion to dominate this fine Christian board with truly un-Christian and unstructured mantras.

Mark, I would suggest that you get your nose out of the books you have been reading, and begin to read some writers who expose British Israelism for what it is: a purely racist doctrine, begun with the Gnostics, and enlarged and embroidered by the Illuminati centuries ago, for their own nefarious purposes. I would suggest you read about what harm this heretical doctrine has done and is doing from that day to this. There are whole bibliographies devoted to the exposure of this nefarious and ridiculous fabrication, and you are smart enough to do a web search (or a library search) and find them.

And then I would suggest strongly that you get on your knees and ask the Lord to heal your soul of whatever is festering there that is causing you to blindly, religiously push this false doctrine on this board and in the churches that have asked you to leave.

The Lord can heal you and can open your eyes to truth. But please, in the meantime, do not continue to befoul the waters here. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

Mark, I guess what I want most for you to do at this point is simple: Define "we". Who is this "we that you just mentioned?

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

I mean, the "we" when you say, "We are Israel".

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

If you weren't so wrapped up in your own pet theology, you could see the absurdity of your own arguments. I have mentioned in another thread that the British language is of Aryan extraction, similar to the Germanic languages around it, originating in India, whereas Hebrew is a Semitic language similar to Arabic.

To this you agreed, quoting (Isa 28:11 KJV) "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."

Then you try to prove your claim with the weak argument that the word "British" sounds like the Hebrew "Beriyth 'iysh," or Brit Ish, "Man of the Covenant"

You can't have it both ways. Either the British (and their language) are of Hebrew extraction or they aren't. If, as you have admitted, the English language is completely foreign to the Hebrew, how in the heck did this supposed Hebrew mish-mash (and it is a mish-mash; ask any Hebrew linguist and they will tell you it isn't even grammatically correct) get there? And if English is derived from Hebrew, why don't we see more evidence of this?

The fact is that all of your theories are pure speculation, which has been thoroughly discredited by archaeologists, linguists, anthropologists, historians, ad infinitum. You are like the Mormon, who wants to put Jews in the Americas and give them a great civilization there. There is not one shred of data to back up either claim.

Yet for the Bible, there is mountains of evidence. God saw to that. We serve a very evidentiary God. When he appeared to the disciples on the third day, he presented evidence: he said, "touch me and see." When Paul stood before Herod Agrippa, he said, "Check out the evidence." Well, I have thoroughly checked out the evidence for your theories and found them lacking .... like about 100% lacking.

You may be sincere, but you are sincerely (and severely) deluded. Put away your Christian Identity books and read some things that reputable scholars have said for a change. And we will pray for you.

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed ... in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie" (2 Thessalonians 2:9-11)

In His Service,

John Wilson

(Incidentally, I noticed you always quote from the KJV ...)

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

Point by point:

The Josephus quote: Josephus has been wrong on other things. He makes mention somewhere I believe of the Phoenix bird as being a real creature. Anyway, it says here that the 10 tribes are beyond the Euphrates, not in Britain.

Scripture says that at least a remnant of the 10 tribes remained in Palestine, and it names by tribal name at least 6 of those tribes.

AGAIN, there is no historical or archaeological evidence that the ten Hebrew tribes of Israel migrated from the Euphrates valley to the British Isles. NONE. Period. End of subject.

A New Language: It does not say that it will be Israel that will be speaking in another tongue. It merely says that another tongue will speak to them.

New name: With regard to it being "British" .... pure speculation! Unsupported by linguistic scholarship. The etymology of the word British is Celtic, not Hebrew.

Merriam-Webster dictionary entry: Main Entry: Brit7ish Etymology: Middle English Bruttische of Britain, from Old English Brettisc, from Brettas Britons, of Celtic origin; akin to Welsh Brython Briton

Dwelling in the Isles: If you read the scripture in context, God is making a pronouncement to the people who live in the isles (e.g. in far-off lands) concerning the people of Israel. He is not saying Israel herself dwells there.

There is much more to be added to this list but this should suffice for the monment.

In The Service of the King of the Jews,

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

Grrr... HTML fix again sorry folks!

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

(that dictionary quote above, the way it was meant to be)

Merriam-Webster dictionary entry: Main Entry: Brit7ish Etymology: Middle English Bruttische of Britain, from Old English Brettisc, from Brettas Britons, of Celtic origin; akin to Welsh Brython Briton

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

John,

Mark Hillyard said in another thread that he had approached his pastor/others in his church about this and got brushed aside. I appreciate what you've done here. Hard to refute your references - well researched. But I wonder if anyone in his local congregation has done the same thing. (Mark - have they?)

I have to confess that I've never heard of such a thing as what Mark proposes. If I read correctly what everyone is saying, Mark suggests that the British are actually Jewish peoples migrated to Britain and that we, as Anglo-Saxons moved to America, are Jewish as well? Or am I missing something here...

Assuming my read of this doctrine is right, it would be irrelevant. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart..." - Romans 2:28, 29

I guess, Mark (if you're reading this) my question to you is this: so what? What's the point behind all of this? Why would this be so important as to hang your hat on this one issue? What benefit comes with this doctrine that makes you so tigerish about it? And what blessing can I receive that you alert me to it so often in this forum? As I read scripture, I have all the blessings I need in Jesus Christ and whatever I have in the flesh profits me nothing.

If I've missed something here, somebody please help me out.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Brett;

You have not missed anything. You have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Today, "British Israelism" is taught by over 100 split- offs of the Worldwide Church of God, who recently turned from this cultic doctrine and embraced orthodoxy (praise God!); it is also taught by the racist "Christian Identity" movement (Aryan Nations, Posse Commitatus, the Lord's Covenant Church, America's Promise Ministries, and others, all having Neo-Nazi and Klu Klux Klan ties), and several smaller groups.

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Just a few passages for Mark to Explain.

He has completely failed to explain Ezekiel 37:15-22 wherein God "crossed" or joined Irael and Judah so that they would become one nation. But Mark wants us to believe that if you "ever cross Isreal and Judah you will get the wrong conclusion". But God Crossed them in Ezekiel 37:15-22 and His conclusion was the right one!

Now we can ask him to explain how it is that God Chose Judah over Ephraim according to the following passage:

Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. Psalms 67:68.

Then he might want to explain that God promised through Isaiah that within sixty-five years from the time of Isaiah's writting the following prophecy that Ephriam would CEASE TO BE A PEOPLE.

Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, [even] the son of Tabeal: Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass. For the head of Syria [is] Damascus, and the head of Damascus [is] Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people. Isaiah 7:5-8.

Now Ephriam, within sixty - five years of this prophecy, went into Assrian captivity and they ceased to be as a nation or people. They never returned. God said they would be "broken so that it be NOT A PEOPLE". But now Mark has found that they are in fact a people after all! He has learned that Great Britian is Ephriam. He has once again shown that God was WRONG! God said they would be broken so that they would not be a people. But Mark says they are the people of Great Britian. Just who do we believe God or Mark? I chose to believe God.

For The King of the Jews,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Mark:

Just in case you want to deny that you have ever said that God has chosen Ephriam over Judah I will now quote your exact words concerning that matter as follows:

"I do admit that it took me a long time to overcome the lies put forth re: this subject. "The Jews are Gods Chosen." The Jews are Gods rejected. Israel is Gods Chosen."

But, once again, as I have shown in my previous post, God says one thing and Mark says the direct opposite. Read this verse from God's word where we are told that God chose Judah over Ephraim:

Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim: But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. Psalms 67:68.

So Again I chose, as I hope others will, to believe God instead of Mark.

For the "Lion of the tribe of Judah",

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Amen!

"To him who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

The Lord can heal you and can open your eyes to truth. But please, in the meantime, do not continue to befoul the waters here. Thank you.

Thank you for your concern, however the Lord has given me to drink of the Living Waters.

(Ezek 34:18 KJV) "Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?"

(Ezek 34:19 KJV) "And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet."

The above is, IMO, talking to those who claim to be the leaders of my flock. That would be government and religious leaders. They are the ones who continue to befoul the waters.

Sam

Define "we". Who is this "we that you just mentioned?

(Eph 2:12 KJV) "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"

And as I have pointed out many times Israel was to receive the light. (Isa 9:8 KJV) "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel."

Also all that come to this commonwealth through Jesus Christ. Strangers as the Good Book says.

AGAIN, there is no historical or archaeological evidence that the ten Hebrew tribes of Israel migrated from the Euphrates valley to the British Isles. NONE. Period. End of subject.

Or, beginning of subject...(Rom 11:25 KJV) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

(Rom 11:26 KJV) "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

(Hosea 2:6 KJV) "Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths."

(Hosea 2:7 KJV) "And she shall follow after her lovers, but she shall not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them: then shall she say, I will go and return to my first husband (Jesus Christ); for then was it better with me than now."

(Gen28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep,

A New Language: It does not say that it will be Israel that will be speaking in another tongue. It merely says that another tongue will speak to them

(Isa 28:11 KJV) "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people."

In context this seems to apply to (Isa 28:1 KJV) " the drunkards of Ephraim,

New name: Is the term Jews a new name? Is the term Judah a new name? Is the term Israel a new name? Then what is the new name and Where is the Great Nation, Mannassah and the Great Company of Nations, Ephraim? Or is God fooling with us?

And why does Brit ish mean Covenant People?

Dwelling in the Isles:

If you read the scripture in context, God is making a pronouncement to the people who live in the isles (e.g. in far-off lands) concerning the people of Israel. He is not saying Israel herself dwells there.

(Isa 49:1 KJV) "Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name."

(Isa 49:2 KJV) "And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;"

(Isa 49:3 KJV) "And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified."

Remember God mentioned that Israel would spread out, become as the dust of the earth and inherit the desolate places.

(Isa 49:6 KJV) "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."

(Isa 49:7 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee."

(Isa 49:8 KJV) "Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;"

(Amos 9:9 KJV) "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

What about the mountains of Israel? Read the latter day prophecy re: the Tribes of Israel and what they would look like. Gen 49

(Ezek 36:4 KJV) "Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;"

(Ezek 36:5 KJV) "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey."

Most students of the Word agree that mountains is a analogues for nations. The Jewish Nation is one small nation not a Great Company of Nations nor a Great Nation.

What about the "sticks" re: Judah and Israel...(Jer 33:17 KJV) "For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;"

David is from Judah and was to be a Royal House forever ruling over Israel. The Throne of the Lord!

Today, "British Israelism" is taught by over 100 split- offs of the Worldwide Church of God

However, Herbert Armstrong did not discover this, he got it from many other sources. He may have been somewhat cultish, but arent the Baptists, Catholics, Calvinists and all these other churches cultish in their beliefs? Not re: Jesus Christ but in their views.

Jesus said (Mark 9:40 KJV) "For he that is not against us is on our part."

(Mark 9:41 KJV) "For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."

The Bride...(Rev 21:12 KJV) "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"

More later!

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2000

Mark,

Forgive me for appearing rude, but again: so what? Even if you're right and British peoples are truly Israel, it doesn't matter at all.

"For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, 'I have made you a father of many nations') in the presence of Him whom he believedGod, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, 'So shall your descendants be.'" - snippets from Romans 4:13-18

It wasn't just to Israel of the flesh, but to many nations by faith.

I also see no benefit to what you're teaching. I base this on the words of Jesus:

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life." - John 6:63

Paul reiterates this later when he speaks of the monumentous things in the flesh he could boast of. Paul also said this:

"There is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." - Col 3:11

So again, why are you hanging your hat on this doctrine? Because Jesus and the writers post-Pentecost make it pretty plain: Being a Jew doesn't matter any more.

So Mark, your point was? Skip the academic gymnastics and get to your point please. Why is what you're teaching so important? Because from where I sit, I have everything I need in Jesus Christ by faith and whether I am a true Israelite by the flesh because my ancestors moved to some far off isles or not profits me nothing.

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2000

Brett,

Amen and Amen. Thank you!

-- Anonymous, February 26, 2000

Anyone with any understanding of the Bible can see right through your arguments. But once again, line by line (this is getting tiresome):

(Rom 11:26 KJV) "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" ALL Israel, meaning all 12 tribes, meaning Jews too! Which is why he parallels "Israel" with "Jacob". I could have told you that even when I was in grade school.

As Brother Staffold pointed out, God HIMSELF said that Ephraim would cease to be a people, because of their wickedness. They had their shot ... they blew it.

British only means Covenant People if you force Hebrew meanings onto a Celtic word, which is exactly what you are doing. You butcher linguistics to try to make your point.

You also beg the question ... you assume Israel is the British people, then you twist everything to make it fit that assumption.

"... inherit the desolate places." Have you seen some parts of Israel lately?

Isaiah 49:6 - once again, a parallel is drawn between "Israel" and "Jacob," which shows he is talking about the 12 tribes, not just the 10 northern ones. Read up a little on Hebrew Parallelisms and other forms of Hebrew poetic form, before coming back here, ok? Your ignorance of Biblical hermeneutics is really appalling, even to a rank amateur as myself.

"Most students of the Word agree that "mountains" is a analogues for nations." Care to prove this rather than making blanket statements?

Regarding the Revelation quote: "the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" ... not the TEN tribes ... meaning ALL Israel.

More later! Please ... no threats!

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2000

Herbert W. Armstrong somewhat cultish? At least all the other groups you mentioned have the same basic historic beliefs in common. Besides teaching Aryan-Israelism, (no, it wasn't a faux-pas; thats really what it is IMHO), Armstrong also taught that we are not under grace but still under law, having to keep Saturday and the Jewish feast days as well as kosher laws (basically being a Judaizer), that Jesus was part of a God-family, and that all believers could become God as much as Jesus and the Father were God, that the Holy Spirit was a force, and that all of Christianity was apostate and of the devil except for his little group. THAT makes him a cult, and no, he was not "cultic" in the way you think all the other groups you mentioned were "cultic." His was a true cult which fit every definition of the word, rejecting the historic Biblical teaching.

Incidentally, I have recently had the pleasure of befriending a member of the Worldwide Church of God. She is a wonderful Christian woman who has been telling me about all the changes her church has been through, and all the doctrines she has left behind as the Lord has opened her eyes to the truth. And I pray the Lord will also open your eyes as well.

For the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the King of the Jews, I remain,

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2000

Why do we sing such songs as "THE FIRST NOEL"?

Born is the King of Israel.

It is because we are singing praises to Our King and Lord of Lords.

(Isa 42:10 KJV) "Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof."

The First Noel The first Noel, the angel did say, Was to certain poor shepherds in fields as they lay; In fields where they lay keeping their sheep, On a cold winter's night that was so deep. Noel, Noel, Noel, Noel, Born is the KING OF ISRAEL.

Many of our songs proclaim Jesus as Our King. It is part of us/ISRAEL

"As Brother Staffold pointed out, God HIMSELF said that Ephraim would cease to be a people, because of their wickedness. They had their shot ... they blew it."

So did Judah if you take time to study.

(Psa 60:7 KJV) "Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;"

(Psa 108:8 KJV) "Gilead is mine; Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;"

(Jer 31:9 KJV) "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

(Jer 31:10 KJV) "Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock."

(Jer 31:11 KJV) "For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he."

(Jer 31:18 KJV) "I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God."

(Jer 31:19 KJV) "Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth."

(Jer 31:20 KJV) "Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD."

(Ezek 37:16 KJV) "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:"

(Ezek 37:17 KJV) "And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."

(Ezek 48:5 KJV) "And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim."

(Ezek 48:6 KJV) "And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben."

(Hosea 11:9 KJV) "I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city."

(Hosea 14:8 KJV) "Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found."

(Zec 10:7 KJV) "And they of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, and their heart shall rejoice as through wine: yea, their children shall see it, and be glad; their heart shall rejoice in the LORD."

(Zec 10:8 KJV) "I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased."

If you take the time to read the Word of God you will find that God has other things to say re: Ephraim, Judah was even worse than the others according to the Word of God.

(Jer 3:11 KJV) "And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than TREACHEROUS JUDAH."

Why do I bother with all this? Seeking the Kingdom!

(Mat 6:33 KJV) "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

When was the Kingdom Established. Hint. Start with Moses.

Don't let it get tiresome as stated in an above post. When you finally understand to seperate Israel, House of David, Judah, Jews, Ephraim, Sceptre, Birthright, and all the things I have been attempting to say here then you will see something that is marvellous...(Isa 29:14 KJV) "Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

(1 Cor 1:20 KJV) "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

(1 Cor 1:27 KJV) "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"

(1 Cor 1:28 KJV) "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:"

(1 Cor 1:29 KJV) "That no flesh should glory in his presence."

(Mat 21:42 KJV) "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?"

(Mat 21:43 KJV) "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you (Jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Israel)"

(Mat 21:44 KJV) "And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."

Marvellous! Wouldn't you say?

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2000

Have you ever in history seen an Army fall out in RED? That has got to be the dumbest color an Army could choose to go to war in wouldn't you think?

(Nahum 2:3 KJV) "The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken."

Just wondering!

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2000

You're seeking the Kingdom in the wrong place. What did Jesus say?

"The Kingdom of God is in Israel."

no.

"The Kingdom of God is in Britain."

um ... no.

"The Kingdom of God is within you."

thats it!

And he was talking to whom?

The Jews!

Do a word study on the phrase "Kingdom of God" sometime. Here, let me help you get started:

Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit." an obvious allusion to the Gentiles, for this is exactly what Paul did in every town; going to the Jews first, then giving the kingdom to the Gentiles.

Mark 1:15 "The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" His audience was: Jews!

Mark 4:11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you." His audience was: Twelve Jewish disciples!

Mark 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell" His audience was: Twelve Jewish disciples!

Mark 10:14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." His audience was: Jewish children!

Mark 12:34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." His audience was: A Jewish Rabbi!

Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Joseph was: A Jewish Rabbi!

Luke 4:43 But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent." His audience was: Jewish towns! (Why preach to a people who aren't receiving the Kingdom? That would be kind of stupid, wouldn't it?)

Luke 6:20 Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. His audience was: Jewish people! (Of course, this applies to Gentiles as well.)

Luke 8:1 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. His audience was: Jewish towns! (Again, why preach to a people who aren't receiving the Kingdom?)

Luke 8:10 He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you" His audience was: Twelve Jewish disciples!

Luke 9:2 and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. Sent them out to whom? The Jews!

Luke 9:11 but the crowds learned about it and followed him. He welcomed them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who needed healing. His audience was: Jews! Whom did he welcome? Jews! Whom did he heal? Anyone care to venture a guess?

Luke 11:20 But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. To whom has the Kingdom come? To the Jews!

These are just a few of many passages I could relate. But really, this is getting a bit monotonous ... even a child should be able to see this by now. Which perhaps is why Jesus said,

"I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

For the King of ALL Israel, the King of the Jews,

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2000

Mark,

Let me see if I get this straight:

Israel, which is not the Jews but actually the British, is the nation to whom today the kingdom of God is come. Therefore, whoever is not of British/Israeli descent cannot inherit the kingdom of God because it has not been given to them. And these British peoples would scatter about the earth. (Correct me if I am wrong here.)

If I have this right, then allow me a couple of quick question:

Personally, I'm of German descent - 100% Kraut - not British. Can I receive these wonderful things of which you speak?

Let's say that I were totally Ethiopian - not a hint of British in me. Or that I were Indian, right out of New Delhi. Or native to Sri Lanka.

If I understand what you're saying - that only Israel would inherit the kingdom of God (not the Jews, but Israel) - then people not of Israel (anyone but the British) is excluded. Is that right? Are you saying that I, a person not of British descent, can't be a Covenant People, as you described it?

You'll have to hang with me here Mark because I'm trying to understand what you're saying.

Now maybe (you haven't been real clear about this part) those not of Israel by descent can partake in the kingdom of God through Jesus Christ (becoming an Israelite by faith, perhaps?) and thereby inherit the kingdom of God. Is that right? Or am I locked out by virtue of my ancestry?

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

Gal.3:8-9 "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you". So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."

A simple question: If the British Israel were really the chosen poeple, why did God have His Apostles waste their time preaching to the Hebrews, Galatians, Corinthians, Ephesians, etc. etc.? "All nations" means "all nations". Believers (those who have faith) are the chosen people.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

"Now maybe (you haven't been real clear about this part) those not of Israel by descent can partake in the kingdom of God through Jesus Christ (becoming an Israelite by faith, perhaps?) and thereby inherit the kingdom of God. Is that right? Or am I locked out by virtue of my ancestry?"

There are Twelve Tribes of Israel! Simeon and Levi were to be scattered through out the Tribes...(Gen 49:5 KJV) "Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in their habitations."

(Gen 49:6 KJV) "O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall."

(Gen 49:7 KJV) "Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel."

I am sure of some of the Tribal ID's and many think the Germanic Tribes fit also. However this is not about racial superiority or anything of that nature. It is about Gods choice in calling out a servant People to Guide the World into Everlasting Peace. There are no superior, only Gods choosing. Israel didn't do so well even with God in there midst.

The Scriptures are very clear re: the Stranger...

(Isa 56:3 KJV) "Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree."

(Isa 56:4 KJV) "For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;"

(Isa 56:5 KJV) "Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off."

(Isa 56:6 KJV) "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;"

(Isa 56:7 KJV) "Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."

God made a promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel. That promise was the Kingdom with all the blessings, and punishments and ultimate Redemption.

We are always looking for fulfillment of Gods Word and wondering when and how these things written and promised by God have been and will be forthcoming. The spreading out and colonization of the world by Israel has been accomplished.

There is more to come!

If we as a Church begin to see what God has accomplished and place the prophecies with the correct peoples, and places then we can have a better understanding of the Word of God, The Kingdom of God, and the Plan of God. And, as far as I am concerned, everything we have always wanted to know seeing as how Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending.

(Jer 33:3 KJV) "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not."

Again, I am not trying to exclude anyone for any reason. God is far greater than that and is no respecter of persons...(Acts 10:34 KJV) "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

(Acts 10:35 KJV) "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

(Acts 10:36 KJV) "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)"

I hope this helps! It is all about seeing what God has done so far and will do in the future.

Take care.

Would have answered sooner but having trouble connecting.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2000

I repeat: Gal.3:8-9 "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you". So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."

A simple question: If the British Israel were really the chosen poeple, why did God have His Apostles waste their time preaching to the Hebrews, Galatians, Corinthians, Ephesians, etc. etc.? "All nations" means "all nations". Believers (those who have faith) are the chosen people.

We should not be confused by false doctrine. God did not present a plan to Abraham that failed to be accomplished. The one plan of salvation from the beginning of time is through Christ alone.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2000

For 2000 years, the Gospel, the good news of the Kingdom (for that is what the word "gospel" means), has always been the same:

And now I want to remind you, my friends, of the Good News which I preached to you, which you received, and on which your faith stands firm. ... I passed on to you what I received, which is of the greatest importance: that Christ died for our sins, as written in the Scriptures; that he was buried and that he was raised to life three days later, as written in the Scriptures. (I Corinthians 15:1,3- 4)

Romans 1:17 reveals the purpose of the Good News: "For the gospel reveals how God puts people right with himself." Thats incredibly good news, for everyone! It was not some secret thing, it was easily understandable, even as Paul said, "For if the gospel we preach is hidden, it is hidden only from those who are being lost" (2 Cor. 4:3).

Now along comes Mark preaching that the good news of the Kingdom is really that Britain and the United States (the white part, anyway) are actually the lost tribes of Israel. This was hidden in the scriptures such that no one for about 1800 years ever saw it! (The New Testament says that Jesus and the apostles preached "the Good News of the Kingdom" both to the Jews, and later to the Gentiles. How is Britain being Israel "Good News" to either group?)

Paul warned about such false teachers when he said:

Actually, there is no "other gospel," but ... there are some people who are upsetting you and trying to change the gospel of Christ. ... We have said it before, and now I say it again: if anyone preaches to you a gospel that is different from the one you accepted [Which gospel? The one he clearly outlined in I Corinthians!], may he be condemned to hell! (Galatians 1:7,9, TEV)

May all heed the warning. To him who has ears to hear, let him hear.

In the service of the Lion of the House of Judah,

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2000

"A simple question: If the British Israel were really the chosen poeple, why did God have His Apostles waste their time preaching to the Hebrews, Galatians, Corinthians, Ephesians, etc. etc.?"

Or James to the TWELVE TRIBES SCATTERED???? Where to? Answer?

(James 1:1 KJV) "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."

"(the white part, anyway)"???????

Why is it that a (white) person is a racist if he identifies himself? I've never heard anyone condemn any of the other races for having identified themselves with, AFRICAN AMERICAN, TO NAME ONE.

But let an Israel American claim his identity and that one is a RACIST. Your argument disclaiming the promises of God Almighty is silly.

White does not make one superior. Being descended from Israel does not make one superior.

Perhaps removing the blindfolds, and the wax from the ears makes one see and hear better, however even that will not make one superior.

Your racist argument is baseless.

(Isa 51:1 KJV) "Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged."

(Isa 51:2 KJV) "Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him."

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Titus 3:10 "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him."

C'mon guys... don't you think we've warned this guy enough? This "New Gospel" is no "Gospel" at all. You don't have to be very educated to see right through this so-called logic. It's all a sham just like Three-Card-Monty. "Where's the lady, gents?"

In Him,

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2000

Amen, Nate. And to Connie, in case you are reading this thread: We were quite nice to Mark in the beginning, and if you go back and read earlier threads you will see that. But his views got more and more heretical as time went on, and there has come a point where we have basically said, "enough!"

When Jesus went into the temple, did he pat the moneychangers lovingly on the head and say, "now now, you shouldn't be doing this?" NO! He took a WHIP, began BEATING THEM soundly, OVERTURNING their tables, and DRIVING them out! I know of so many Christians who believe in the namby-pamby "Peace-Love" Christ (who is more a flower child hippie Christ), who cannot come to terms with the Christ who hated false religion so much that he would quite literally BEAT UP those who would make a mockery of God's word, CALL THEM really rude NAMES, and tell them they were going straight to HELL!

Now I'm not advocating physically assaulting anyone, I am just trying to make a point. When I discuss religion with a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness, I am nice and polite -- to a point. But when it becomes clear that there is a hardened heart with a love for the lie which will not listen when the truth is clearly presented to them, well you gotta draw a line somewhere.

Nate's verse from Titus 3:10, "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him" is very appropos. I usually go far beyond the second time. And I think we all have in these Aryan-Israel threads. But there comes a time when Christian love must give way to Christian rebuke. Rebuke isn't always nice. Even the sound of the word is ugly. But it is sometimes necessary. In fact, it is sometimes COMMANDED in the scripture.

Your Brother in Christ,

-- Anonymous, March 08, 2000