I am looking for good responses to the "once saved always saved" doctrine.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2000

Answers

I believe the Bible to teach....."once saved...always saved"....as long as I trust.

I don't buy this business that everytime we sin we have to hurry up and confess or else we are going to hell!!!

In fact, I see no value to our confession of sin!! We come across sounding like, "You know I'm usually pretty good God, but I made a little mistake this time."

No......

I see greater value in confessing...."We are sinners"....we did it because we liked it, we enjoyed it, and chances are good....we'll do it it again....until some growth takes place in our lives."

Remember the prayer of the Pharisee and the Publican??

Our level of maturity reached in our Christian walk has nothing to do with the STATE of our salavation. I'm not guranteed my salvation once I get rid of (fill in the blank sin) in my life.

That's why I hate it when someone outlines the steps to salvation like this...."Believe, repent, confess, be baptized, live the Christian life."

What??? Since when did living the Christian life have anything to do with my salvation??

I live the Christian life....BECAUSE....I am saved.....not in order TO BE saved!! I get to....I don't have to!!!

I am never any more or less saved during my life than the second I first came out of the baptistery.

"There is, therefore NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus!!"

If I CHOOSE to turn my back and rest on something or someone else other than Jesus for my eternal security....at that point....I am lost.

Until then, how great it is to be safe in the arms of Jesus!!!!

BTW....I would like to recommend the book by Max Lucado...."In the Grip of Grace". What a wonderful book to keep on your shelf and remind you of the grace of God. I have been preaching from Romans this month and leaning heavily on some of his good illustrations.

"Wonderful grace of Jesus.....greater than all my sin".....that's past, present, and future!!!

By the way, if the death of Jesus was not able to finish what He started......why did He die in the first place??

Think about that the next time Satan whispers in your ear..."Haven't you gone to the well and asked forgiveness one too many times??"

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

Brian,

For now, here are a couple of quick thoughts off of the top of my head.

1) The Book of Hebrews spells out Apostasy. It was written to convince Jewish Christians not to fall away (apostize themselves) from the Faith. Chapter 6:4-6 spells it out for all to see and then follow that up with 10:26-31. Those are a great 1-2 punch.

2) Also bring up the 5 negative letters Christ wrote to the Churches in Chapters 2 & 3 of Revelation. If Christ is condemning those churches and the people in them, can one realistically expect Him to just turn His back and let everyone on in if they do not repent & change? That sure isn't consistant with the God who said, "Be ye Holy for I am Holy".

These are just some of many arguments you can use, and there are still a ton more of them that I'm sure others will be sharing soon.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2000

Here's a great response and already packaged...Robert Shank's "Life in the Son" There is absolutely no greater refutation on the subject than what Shank has put together. It is worth every penny.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2000

I think though you must be careful with this one. I stopped going to a fellowship in Hawaii because the pastor kept preaching week after week (based on one line of Scripture) that if a person commits ONE SIN after being saved that person is lost forever, without hope. That teaching of his is clearly in violation of other Scriptures. Where we (collectively) err is in not taking the WHOLE COUNSEL of Scripture. Don't take the easy way out and proof-text. Both sides of this issue are guilty of it, and like normal, the truth is somewhere in between.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2000

Dr. Jon

Man-O-Man, if that fellow in Hawaii was right - then we would all be doomed, with no Hope. That fellow seemed to miss the point of I John 1:9 - "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". That verse applies to both the mature Christian and the new "Babe in Christ" fresh out of the Baptistry.

The key here being confession and repentance of sin. I'm still convinced that Once saved, Always saved does NOT apply to unconfessed, unrepentant sins that are willfully committed by one who has already been Baptized into Christ. One doesn't have to go through the whole baptism thing again, but he had best come clean with God if he desires forgiveness.

You are right about proof-texting, it is a dangerous habit that preachers, teachers, etc. must be wary of falling into.

Thanks for your thoughts,

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2000

Mr. Barrie:

You asked the following question:

"I am looking for good responses to the "once saved always saved" doctrine."

Here are the best responses directly from the word of God. Study these passages in their context and know all the details of what they say. Then you will see that the doctrine of "once saved always saved" is purely false and contrary to the doctrine of Christ. If anyone wants a detailed explanation of any of these verses I will be happy to provide it but they speak very well for themselves in their context. If these are not sufficient for your purpose I will be happy to provide more. For the word of God is filled with the truth that we must remain faithful unto death and that we must beware of the devil who " as a roaring Lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour". He does so because he is definitely aware that it is possible for him to devour those who do not remain faithful to Christ. If he knew that it was impossible wouldn't he be stupid! These words were written to Christians. For he has already devoured those who are in the world. He is hungry for the saints of God. So let us be sober and vigilant. Now those that tell us that once we are saved we are always saved are asking us to give up on our vigilance. These scriptures warn us. Do not do it because you will be devoured. I sincerely hope this helps you.

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. ( Luke 8:13).

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. ( Hebrews 6:4-6).

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. (2 Peter 2:20-22).

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ( Matthew 13:41-43).

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1Corinthians 10:12).

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. ( Galatians 5:4).

But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1Corinthians 9:27).

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (2Peter 2:4). These people that Peter wrote to had escapted the corruption that is in the world. He then warns these people who were obviously saved, with these words:

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (.2Peter 1:10).

Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised;) For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:24,26).

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:29-32)

Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:38,39).

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; (1Timothy 4:1,2).

"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith. And withal they learn [to be] idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. For some are already turned aside after Satan." (1Timothy 5:11-15).

And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (2Timothy 2:17,18).

Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled; (Hebrews 12:14,15).

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1Timothy 1:19).

Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. (Rev. 2:4,5).

And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1Corinthians 8:11,12).

Keep yourselves in the love of God. (Jude 21).

Your friend in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2000

I am of the opinion that both views are true, at the same time. That we are eternally secure in Christ, yet we can fall away. I think in Scripture we often see dynamic tension like this. The trick is the viewpoint. In Christ, from Christ's eternal perspective, He knows those who are His and those who will remain faithful to the end. Those are His and shall remain His, eternally secure. From Man's viewpoint, we cannot see the person's eternal state, we only see their works. The person who seems secure now, may at some future point fall away, abandon the faith. Its all a matter of perspective. (Does that make me a Calvinistic Arminian or an Arminian Calvinist? LOL) I often joke with a dear friend of mine who is a Presbyterian that I am a "one point Calvinist," because I can accept the concept of eternal security, from a certain point of view. Its the same as the faith vs. works argument. Our faith saves us, from God's perspective, but our works show our salvation to mankind. In my humble opinion.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2000

John (mrbatman?),

You have hit the nail on the proverbal head. The way I think of it and explain it to people can be summarized as follows: we can know that we are saved if we pursue the kingdom; if our eyes are focused on Jesus and we walk in the light of His paths, we are continually cleansed, and any stumbles will be forgiven. But if we take our eyes off Jesus, if we insist on sinning, if we seek something other than the kingdom, then we are endangered.

Another related analogy: if our eyes are on our feet, making sure we don't stumble, then we lose sight of Jesus and become legalistic, falling from the grace of Jesus Christ (Gal 5:4). Yet if we keep our eyes on Jesus, our paths will be straight and our lives cleansed.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2000

Re: MrBatman

"Batman" is a nickname I've had for years now, because I resemble Michael Keaton. And when I worked at Earthlink sometimes we would be mock-formal and put "Mr." in front of people's first names when addressing them (Mr. Andy, Mr. Dave, etc.). Hence ... Mr. Batman.

And now you know ... the rest of the story.

-- Anonymous, February 21, 2000

Once saved always saved has no Biblical bearing whatsoever. It is leftoleftover baggage fron Calvin/Augustine with their warped view of predestination. Warped because instead of predestination being what "Mr. Batman" (love your name; you can call me Capt. America) has said, which is a preparation made because of God's foreknowledge, it becomes a causal factor, i'e., God's knows who are His because He made those who are His.

Calvin codified Augustine's theology. In it, man is so evil he cannot even desire to do good. That means he cannot choose to submit to God with out help. Therefore, God must choose (actually, has already chosen at the beginning of time) who are going to be saved and who is not. It is random selection. You have no choice in being one of God's elect. You must simply wait and see if you are made aware of your salvation. If you has a desire to follow God, you are one of the elect. Back in the centuries before ours an experience was required to determine God selection of you.

Now, if our choice of becoming one of the saved is left up to God and we have no say in the matter, then neither can we choose to be lost. Therefore, once you're saved, you are always saved. This is pure Augustinianism, it has no credibility in the Scriptures at all. Calvin called it "Perseverance of the Saints."

What I find interesting is that most groups that claim eternal security don't want the rest of Calvin's baggage that goes along with it. In other words, they like the "p" in the tulip but don't accept how you get to it through the T-U-L-I. But logically and theologically, it is a package deal.

Our security resides in our faith. We are saved by faith and it is that faith that keeps us. Lee did a good job in showing the Scriptural reason to reject this doctrine so I won't go into it here. Good work Lee. ope this helps somewhat.

-- Anonymous, February 24, 2000

Since when did living the Christian life have anything to do with my salvation??

Amen, Danny! That's salvation by works, not by faith. Even Alexander Campbell wasn't so presumptuous when he came up with the "five-finger exercize": "Hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized." Praise God we don't have six fingers!

-- Anonymous, February 25, 2000

I believe John wilson has it right. If the effectual call of God can be resisted, what does that say about the limits you put on His authority? God created all that is; including matter, energy and time. Science shows they are related, but the Creator is independant of them all. We see our lives as sequential, but God views them much like we see a photograph. Those He has saved are saved forever, and those he does not just aren't - even if they act like Christians and are members of a local congregation for some part of their lives. Predestination wasn't invented by John Calvin. Read all of Paul's letters, not just parts out of context.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

PS:

The law was intended to teach us we are all sinners, every day. We can't prevent that, but God can and does forgive through the finished work of His Son. Just in case (like some Jews did) you really think you can keep the law perfectly, Jesus expained the full meaning of the law so no one can think they escape condemnation by living a perfect life. Predestination is not about any of that. It is about the fact that those God has chosen to save, will most certainly be saved.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

"It is about the fact that those God has chosen to save, will most certainly be saved."

I have what amounts to a very simplistic question here. If the above is true, then what do we do with verses such as John 3:16? Should we change them to "For God so loved (only those He predestined) (a part of the world) (some folks, but not all folks) that He gave His only Son so that (some folks) (those He predestined) (some of the believers)will not perish but have everlasting life."

Just wondering!

Darrell H Combs (one who has chosen, of his own free will, to follow the Lord!

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

Darrel:

My answer would be to read any verse in the context of the whole Bible. On predestination, for example, read Romans 8, Ephesians 1, and the intent in all of Galatians. Not just man, but the creation will be redeemed with a new heaven and a new earth. God loved the world he had created, but not the sin that is in it after the fall. John 3:16 clearly does not mean that everyone will be saved, or who is Hell for, and why are we told to seek the lost?

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

dbvz (must be a Hebrew name - no vowels),

Does God cause men to be saved, thus predestinating them causally. or is God's predestination based on His foreknowledge of those who, of their free will, choose to follow His calling?

Sctt Shrdn

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

Scott;

As you know, as I have already stated in this thread, I believe the latter to be true. =)

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

John,

I understood what you had said, and pretty much agree with you (but would probably use different words). dbvz, I think, has brought Calvinian/Augustinianism into the arena. I only asked him/her to clarify. As you are well aware, as we all are on this forum, sometimes what is stated in black and white is not the intent of it's author.

-- Anonymous, February 28, 2000

dbvz --

Very few people I know would use John 3:16 to prove that everyone will be saved. That is, of course, not what it says.

Hell was created for Satan and his angels, and/or the demons. The sad thing is, Hell will be the final "resting place" for those who never accept Christ as their Lord and Savior.

"and why are we told to seek the lost?"

EXACTLY! What would be the purpose in seeking the lost, if they were lost due to God's not choosing them, and if they had no chance for salvation?

It seems very strange, indeed, for us to spend time, money and effort in sending out missionaries to "win the lost" if that is impossible. Once we start down that road, it then seems very strange to "bother" to share the gospel with anyone. Either God has chosen them or He hasn't, and no amount of my sharing the gospel is going to change that.
No, John 3:16 doesn't promise salvation to everyone ... but it does promise salvation to those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, February 29, 2000

Scott and Darrell:

I believe the Bible is clear in stating that God moves in us to cause us to seek Him, and from His perspective (the eternal perspective) He predestines His elect causally. Grace alone.

As for why we are to seek the lost, it is because we are not God. He commands us to present the gospel, and he chooses to use us to seek and save those He has chosen.

In the age old dispute over the sovereignty of God and the free will of man, I am solidly convinced of His sovereignty in all things. Anything less limits his authority, which is incomprehensable for the God who made all things and upholds all things from moment to moment throughout the universe.

-- Anonymous, February 29, 2000

So then, God also determines the guilt of man, before he has done anything to be guilty of, and he has no choice but to reject God and sin because God made him do it by His predetermined plan - yet that man is guilty and destined for hell, not for his choice but for God's choice.

That is irrational nonsense which makes a mockery of the Biblical concept of justice and grace. What a monstrous God you believe in.

Might I suggest you read the article at this site: http://www.954access.net/users/jscott/Asimov.htm

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2000

I would prefer to stick to the Bible as the authority. Read Genesis, Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians at least. If I have not made myself clear, perhaps it will help to state that I understand the complex issues were are attempting to summarize as does Berkhof in his book Systematic Theology in which every point of doctrine is supported by many passages from throughout the Bible.

Before we get into a long debate on this, I should also state that the exact understanding of the relationship between the sovereignty of God and free will is not a saving faith issue. It has no real effect on what it means to be be a Christian, and how we are expected to live. From our perspective, I believe we seem to have free will and have responsibility for our actions and must live a Christian life and seek the lost, etc. This should not be an issue that causes divisions among the people of God, over an issue that we will not know the answer to in this life.

The Bible is clear in stating that on our own we are unable to do anything good, and if we rely on the justice of God we would be condemned. His justice required the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ, so God sacrificed God for his chosen people, and that is a great mystery. If salvation were about being fair or just by human standards, we would all be lost. It is about grace and faith granted to the elect in love, and our gratitude and service rendered in love as a response.

These are not my inventions, and I am not alone. The Apostles Creed begins, "I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth." The Nicene creed adds, "and of all things visible and invisible." Those are not just words. Almighty means almighty. It should give us comfort that the God who loved us, and gave His life for us, is able to keep us so that no power in heaven or earth or hell can take us out of His hand.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2000

Scott:

I broke down and read the article, and the anti-Calvinist rant was hard to see as a Christian viewpoint. One statement was very telling. It said that Calvin's understanding of conversion was not in the Bible. Many throughout history have seen it. Read Ephesians 2: 1-10 as just one place it is clearly stated. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." "You were dead in your transgressions and sins", until God in grace rescues you. God moves first, to enable us to have faith. Verse 8 is clear that faith is "not from yourselves", but is rather the gift of God. That is the Calvinist understanding of conversion, right out of the Bible.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2000

It is not the faith that is the free gift of God, the Greek construct does not allow it. It is the grace that is the free gift, hence the name "grace." If it were only through God's electing us that we have faith, then Romans 10:17 is a lie.

Also, the word "mystery" in the scriptures do not mean something that cannot be understood. It is a military term used for when all the part of a battle plan come together. When it all came together, ti was called the musterion. Paul, Paeter, John, Luke all had their parts of the plan and it all came together creating the musterion of the Gospel.

I agree with Chambers (to the surprise of no one that knows me) that Calvins views are nowhere in the Scriptures. Truth is not gained by counting heads and the one with the most wins. Roman Catholics see Peter as the Pope in Scripture and many think they have seen that. That does not make it true.

The Grace of God is so great because, in spite of my chosen actions, He sent His Son to die for sins. Who is the greater sinner? The one who sins because he has no choice or the one who freely sins of his own free will.

Flip Wilson used to say "The devil made me do it." You say, "God made me do it."

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2000

You and Flip both are wrong.

-- Anonymous, March 01, 2000

Scripture indicates that the alien sinner cannot please God in the state he is in! The question is, can man change his state or is he in bondage to total disability? According to Calvinism, God must give a person faith for man is not capable of obtaining faith of his own accord. Man is totally depraved. Faith comes after regeneration. The Bible teaches that faith precedes regeneration. Colossians 2:12 "having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." Calvinism wrongly equates mans response with works-that-make- righteous. The only righteousness that will save us is the righteousness of Jesus (Romans 3:21, 22; 10:1-4). Calvinism wrongly attributes faith to God, by misinterpreting Ephesians 2:8-10 Faith is produced by the Word of God, not by the act of regeneration. Romans 10:17 "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures." 1 Peter 1:23 "for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."

Man sins because he chooses to sin. Man does not sin because he has no choice. As I already asked you, Who is more evil, the one who chooses to sin because he desires to, or the one who sins because he has no other option? Calvinism places the guilt and solution of sin in the heart of man. Man must be regenerated first, then he is capable of having faith. This means lostness resides in the heart of man and for forgiveness to take place, the heart condition must first be cleansed.

Mans lostness resides in the mind of God. We are sinners because God views us that way. Sin forces God to separate Himself from man, unless man is under grace. When we offend God (sin), we are not forgiven until we have been forgiven of the offence by God. It is not a matter of God changing us (that occurs after forgiveness, i.e., sanctification), but is a matter of God forgiving us.

Guilt lies in the mind of God whether we feel bad or not, therefore man is not a new creature until God views him that way. That comes after man freely chooses to have faith by accepting the Word of God and choosing to come into covenant with Jesus Christ.

Its right out of the Bible.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2000

You wrote, "Mans lostness resides in the mind of God. We are sinners because God views us that way. Sin forces God to separate Himself from man, unless man is under grace. When we offend God (sin), we are not forgiven until we have been forgiven of the offence by God. It is not a matter of God changing us (that occurs after forgiveness, i.e., sanctification), but is a matter of God forgiving us." And with some qualifications I agree with this. By grace we are elect unto salvation and become children of God. The issue we are getting at is whether the preaching of the Word is what causes faith, or whether the preaching is the means used by God who then by the Spirit of God places a saving faith in us. If we preach loud enough or with just the right words to be convincing, can preaching save anyone? God saves, by the work of the Holy Spirit causing us to respond to the Word with faith.

You quoted James 1:18 "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures." Again, this is the Calvinist view of conversion. God exercised His will, and brings the elect to saving faith. The bottom line is, no one will be saved who is not elect and none of the elect will fail to be saved. The Word is the means to bring us to faith, but none of that happens except by the grace of God. Paul calls the gospel he preached "foolishness", and I am certain that man can't reason anyone into saving faith. Saving faith is the gift of God by grace, as Ephesians 2 clearly states.

-- Anonymous, March 02, 2000

Romans 8: 28 - 39, especially:

35: Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36: As it is written, "For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for hte slaughter.

37: Nay , in all these things we are more than conquerers through Him that loved us.

38: For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39: Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

And also:

Hebrews 6: 1 - 6, especially 4 - 6:

4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,

6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is in the class of the predestination/free will discussion, and the faith/works discussion.

I've always felt we could not lose our gift of salvation, since we are 'grafted in' or adopted and are now in God's family, but Hebrews 6:4 - 6 is pretty definite.

Does anyone else take this to mean that we can lose our salvation once, but never get it back?

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2000

That passage has several possible interpretations, of course. I think the most likely, given the words "it is impossible", is that it is a hypothetical arguement indicating why such a thing could never happen if someone is really part of the Body of Christ. No one who is actually a part of the Body could "crucify the Son of God all over again" because the Holy Spirit of God is in them. It may also suggest the conclusion that if one who seems to be a member of THE Church, but is actually only a member of A church, falls away; they were never really a believer. We are limited in seeing only the outer appearances, but God knows his sheep.

I can't see how this can be interpreted to mean that a true believer who falls away can never be forgiven. We all sin daily, and are forgiven; so that opens up the question of what constitutes a falling away that can not be forgiven. Such an interpretation would also require that our salvation in Christ can be defeated by satin, but that is contrary to all the passages that you noted from Romans 8 and elsewhere. It seems that "it is impossible" literally means it is impossible, and that once you are saved it is eternal. Another reformed doctrine, Perseverance of the Saints.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2000

dbvz:

The verse says' it is impossible to restore to repentance...'.

Forgiveness for sin is an entirely different matter: 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness' - -which would be predicated on our faith. If we were confessing, it would be out of faith.

What Hebrews is referring to is a disbelief after believing. And there is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, also, an unforgiveable sin, which can be thought to be only by an unbeliever. But Hebrews 6:4 is different.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2000

Connie,

Heb 6:6 has a veyr important word in it that unfortunately gets mistranslated too often. Heb 6:6 reads in the NASB (the Bible Jesus used;o)) "and then have fallen away, it is impossible to rebew them again to repentance, since they again cruciy to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

The unfortunate translation is the word "since." It should be translated "while" and there is, as a matter of fact, a footnote in the NASB stating "while as an alternate translation. The important difference is that while a person has fallen away they cannot be brought back. The context of this is Hebrew Christians giving up their faith and going back to Judaism. While they were paticipating in that, rather than the Christian faith, there was no way to restore them. But only "while" they continued to remain fallen away. Of course, that was their choice - unless dbvz is correct, and God made them leave.

Out of time but will respond to you, dbvz. I'm not ignoring you, my friend.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2000

I agree this is subject to several interpretations. Based on the rest of the Bible, those who fall away or comit apostacy; must not have been of the elect or it would not have happened, and must not have really been the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit or it could not have happpened. As I noted before, we only see the appearances but God knows His sheep.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2000

dbvz,

This last post just crossed the "danger" line. You say...."those who fall away or commit apostacy; must not have been of the elect or it would not have happened". What you have just done is subject yourself to the condemnation of Jesus according to His words..."Judge not, lest ye be judged". By making such a statement, you have made an eternal judgment on them - a jugement that you have no right to make.

And besides, how can one "fall away" from something they never had? The word "apostasy" was used deliberately in the scriptures for a reason. Words mean something, and every word in the Bible was given to convey the mind of God. Stop trying to force different ideas into God's Words - for that is very dangerous territory to tread upon.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2000

Mark,

You seem to have missed my point. I am not judging, but if the judgement of God is that one has fallen away and as Connie and Scott have concluded it is impossible for them to be restored to repentance (a position I don't believe is required by the text); what does that mean? I believe it means that one like that is not, and never was, among the elect; because none of those God has predestined to salvation will be lost. As a fellow church member (member of a local congregation) you may see people who attend regularly, teach sunday school, even serve in office; but none of us knows the true eternal condition as God does. God knows if that person is really a member of His Church (the eternal Body of Christ). The church (small c) has been required to excercise discipline from the beginning, based on what can be seen of the behavior that is the evidence of obedience to Christ; but that is still a human judgement subject to error.

Martin Luther was considered an apostate by the Roman Catholic church, though he was attempting to restore the church to the Truth of the gospel; and was surely still part of the Church (large C) as he worked to bring about a revival.

As for "falling away" and "apostacy" as they relate to Hebrews 6, I have stated that the way my NIV Bible reads, it can be understood that such a falling away is "impossible" for the elect; and that such an apparent "falling away" that is permanent and unreclaimed is evidence that the individual was not among the elect. I am not passing judgement on anyone, but trying to understand the circumstances of the issue under consideration. We will not know for sure about anyone else until we meet in Heaven, and we can not speak with certainty about the condemnation of anyne who has heard the gospel and is resisting. We don't know with certainty, for example, that one who commits suicide by jumping off a building did not regret that and ask for forgiveness on the way down; and may die forgiven and redeemed.

I am not trying to force new meaning into the Word of God, but rather to undrstand an individual passage based on the whole Word. Any church doctrine that hangs on an interpretation of one passage needs to be thought through very carefully to see that the interpretation is not inconsistent with the rest of the Bible. I personnally believe that the pre-millennial view is incorrect, based on a misunderstanding of Revelation 20, for example; because many more passages speak of the second coming as a sigular event at the end of human history, an other inconsistencies that would result. Knowing for sure about this is not essential to saving faith, and does not have much effect on our daily walk. As one on another thread said, "pan-millennialism" is the belief that it will all pan-out according to the plan of God in the end.

It is important not to let some of these interpretation issues cause divisions among the Church. They cause enough problems between churches, but they should not prevent Christians who trust in the same Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from seeing each other is brothers and sisters. Mistaken perhaps, but still in the family of God.

On that note, I may not comment further here. I am new to this forum, and have been a little concerned from my first posting that this could be more conducive to divisions than unity.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2000

dbvz,

You need to reread what I wrote about Heb. 6. I said it was impossible to renew them while they were still sinning. Once true repentance takes place, then of course, they can be brought back in.

Getting back to your Calvinism. You seem to have this idea that there are only two views, Calvin's and Arminius. There is a third and it's found in the Scriptures. Calvinists believe that a man cannot believe until God regenerates him as one of the elect and can only then live for God. Why then, do these regenerated people still sin on occasion? If God has taken a depraived man and made him a new creature (thru no choice of his own), why, since he has no say in what he does, does he still sin? Does God like to throw a little sin in the life of the righteous for color or variety?

You don't see these issues as important to salvation. I think they go to the core of a man's salvation. If Calvinistic thought is carried through logically, and it is in many places such as the old Regular Baptists, et al., then no evangelism need occur, because what use is it to try and evangelize if only the elect can respond? So even if you don't offer the invitation, God will make sure that the elect find you - they have no choice. And if I don't offer the invitation, God is the one making me not do it, so I'm not accountable anyway. Doesn't this thinking make you dizzy? Leighton Ford and J.I. Packer both wrote that this is a true antiminy(sp?) in Scripture. In other words, God truly contradicts Himself by telling us that a man has no choice (which God does not tell us that, Packer just thinks He does) yet we are to preach to them as though they did have a choice. I would fear for my soul if I were to tell God He contradicted Himself.

If I were to believe Calvin's theology, then as a person outside the Church, I would wait before doing anything and let God assure me that I was indeed one of His elect. For centuries peoples waited for a sign. It was a bolt of lightning that convinced Luther to join a monastery. From our own history, Raccoon John Smith was tormented waiting on God to show him he was of the elect. He wanted to be, but he needed a sign. How about that. He wanted to be a Christian but because he held the irrational view that he had no choice, he waited.

The very thing that you have alluded to that can give us our assurance of salvation, i.e., God's predetermined election, I say does just the opposite. If, as you believe, God forces us to do whatever He wants us to, then your salvation rests on what He has a mind to do without regard to your own will. I have assurance because I have faith in Him and His Word, and since I have met the propositions contained therein and entered into the new covenant, I have salvation. The only way I lose that salvastion is if I choose to withdraw myself from the covenant. I do not choose to do so, therefore I have assurance. All the Calvinist has is a hope (wish) that God will not remove him from the elect.

BTW, Luther and Calvin never intended to leave the Roman Church. As a matter of fact, ALL they did was try to go back to Augustine. I prefer to go back to Peter and Paul.

I promised you a response, there it is my friend. I saw on another thread that you may not respond anymore for the sake of unity. What can be more uniting than people of good will toward each other trying to sway each other toward the Truth? I hope you will stay with it.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2000

No one has yet to respond to my last post in this thread but I thought I would add one more thought to it before the thread goes into cyber-limbo.

Calvinism destroys the whole concept behind Covenant. It takes two parties to create a covenant. The Calvinist says that only God makes a decision, forces that decision on man, and there is nothing on man's part that enters into anything.

That kind of destroys the whole book of Hebrews doesn't it? Oh well, God made it that way.

Yeah right.

-- Anonymous, March 14, 2000