Because of limited space within the church building we are evaluating the role that Sunday School plays within the church today. Is it still the primary 'small group'? Does it still have a role in evangelism? Does size matter? What to do for what age groups. Thanks Brian

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Answers

Try teaching the parents to teach their children as the Lord directed...(Deu 11:18 KJV) "Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes."

(Deu 11:19 KJV) "And ye shall TEACH THEM your children, speaking of them when thou sittest IN THINE HOUSE, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up."

Kids hate Sunday school anyway. I taught for a while. Although most kids were polite enough they were not very happy to be there. Also observed some teachers who were not good teachers.

It is easy to teach your children at home. I used to do it and would make it a bed time story and simply tried to live it with them etc. Kids loved it.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Brian,

It is impossible to advise with no more information than you have given.

Does SS still work? I would assume you mean adult SS. I think the answer is "it depends". It depends on the purposes you are trying to fulfill with it (are they being fulfilled already? are there better ways to fulfill them?) and the demographics of both your church and those you are trying to reach with the gospel.

Couple of case studies:

Three years ago, I was apart of a congregation where the answers really depended on the age group you were talking about. This was a diverse group of about 2000, with broad representation at all ages. For the older crowd, SS was great. For the younger, it was questionable. The elders made moves to make the SS time for the younger crowd more of an equipping for ministry time. Oh, for the traditionalists who happened to be young, there were options, but classes started evolving around ministries -- like the small group leaders equipping class.

I am now in my second church that doesn't use adult SS, using small groups instead. Neither one will probably ever adopt a formal SS, at least not for a generation or two, though I can see where I am at now using time Sunday morning for both short term and on-going ministry training when we move to a different facility (we rent a theatre now).

Sunday School is often a sacred cow (and sacred cows make the best hamburgers), but will probably be worth keeping or starting for some churches depending on a church's demographics and other programs. I was on the leadership team of a new church planting two years ago, and we didn't start an adult SS immediately because of facilities issues. When another church merged with us and we got the facilities, we still didn't have SS. We had a thriving small groups ministry, on going one-one discipleship (the mature individually helping the babes), etc. We saw no well-defined need to be met or purpose to be fulfilled by SS, so we decided not to require another hour of members time (not to mention the time of volunteers and coordinator(s)).

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Mark,

I agree whole-heartedly with the concept that teaching children of God is the parents' responsibility, and primarily the responsibility of the Father. Many Sunday School/Children's Church programs are nothing more than a baby-sitting service provided for the parents who typically don't want to be bothered by their kids. Unfortunately, I would also have to say that many parents are unable to teach them well because, in order to be an effective teacher, one should have a certain proficiency in what is being taught.

The old saying that Sunday School is not just for kids rings true. Parents need to be equipped to teach the matters of The Faith to their kids and sitting through 1 or 2 - 25 minute sermons a week probably isn't going to accomplish that. So some sort of classroom situation is almost a necessity to give parents what they need, whether it be a "Sunday School", "Home Study Group", or a Wednesday night program.

And to be brutally honest, if the parents can sit through such classes, their kids can do it too. "Most" kids I know don't really care for going to "regular" school either, yet would we consider cancelling school because "they don't like it". No, of course not. Classroom time goes a long way toward preparing kids for their future at many different levels.

When it comes to such educational programs like Sunday School, Home Groups, or "whatever" you want to call them, I think the most valid questions we need to ask as preachers & leaders are:

1) Can it help bring a person to Christ? 2) Can it help bring a Christian closer to Christ? 3) Can it help people in both their daily & eternal lives? 4) Can it help build up the Kingdom of God? If "yes" was answered to these questions, then....... 5) Can we afford Not to offer this opportunity?

There is a saying that "Knowledge is Power". Well since the Word of God (the Gospel) is the "Power of God unto Salvation" I think some type of education system must be maintained within churches if that Power is to be tapped - be it Sunday School or whatever.

Brian, I really can't give you much advice on how to make it happen, since I don't know your space limitations. All I can say is, do all that you can to keep some type of education system going - an educated church is a strong church - and boy, do we need strong churches today.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

"Sunday School" would still work, but usually it is the way which we perform the task which is the problem. I have to disagree with you here Mark -- just because "the kids" think it stinks is not a reason to not have it. While I listen, and try to hear what they say, I generally tend to veto anything a kid has to say because thier bias is to NOT do what is the best thing for them. The majority of kids anywhere (to include churches) are carnal and will not want to listen to spiritual truths.

Let's look at the big issues here, and why "Sunday School" is still a valid idea:

a. It is TEACHING the Bible. This is different than what a person gets in a church service, which is PREACHING. Now, this is why most Sunday School's fail. A teacher has to be one who has the gift and calling to teach. It cannot be just anyone. I have found from practical experience that kids (and adults!) hate Sunday School because they have to sit through a boring lecture presented by an unskilled teacher who has no grasp of the material and is not prepared at all to present the material. Sound familiar?

The preacher has to supervise the overall process of the Sunday School. Too often the teachers are just "out there on their own" without guidance, and without supervision. They are also usually without training on how to present material. Teaching/training is serious business. Only the most serious, the most dedicated, should apply for teaching positions. Remember the thread about elders, and the argument about I Timothy? Guess who the teachers are supposed to be. Its not a "hey-you" kinda thing.

True teaching is not just a lecture. It involves give and take on the part of the teacher and students. My biggest gripe about Sunday School is that the STUDENTS have worse attitudes than the teachers. The students have to want to learn, too...that is their responsibility. (I'm starting to digress, so on to the next point.)

b. The Small Group of the Sunday School class helps build cohesion and belonging. It is in the class that we get to know other believers more intimately. We can put down the "mask of holiness" we are forced to present in the church service, and be more transparent. (I know that many of you will not like to hear that, but it is a reality.)

Doing away with the teaching aspect is not the answer. If you don't have physical room for a "Sunday School," then you can do something else which will perform the same function. I know of many churches which have "small group" or "cell groups" at peoples' homes. The members are still taught, and the church facilities are not needed. These sessions are also more flexible for the needs of the members, because they will not all be at the same time on the same day.

There is always a solution. But don't do away with the teaching ministry.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

I say Amen to Dewey's response. Sunday School is too important. For those that don't want to keep it or do away with it, the fact of the matter is they are just not willing to do the hard word (and it is hard work) to make their Sunday School successful.

There are institutes you can attend, seminars, books you can read...there are all kinds of outlets that you can go to to get ideas on how to improve your existing situation. Don't do away with it though.

Also, just as a point in fact. Ben Merold shared that the days of growing churches being successful because of small groups is over. The largest and fastest growing churches have one common thread - a dynamic Sunday School.

You can make it happen, if you work at it.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Brian, Are there any members homes within a few minutes of your church where you could hold some classes for adults and possibly teenagers? You might have to add a little time to SS for travel time but not much. On a bigger issue, while I feel that the parents are the main teachers of their children, I still feel that SS can be effective. I feel that anyone that works with children must do some real research on how children learn. We have brought public school (even private school) methods into the SS and they just aren't working. Then we go to the other extreme and try to entertain. There are some excellent books out now to help in this area of how children learn. I have the names of a whole lot of them if you are interested.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Please allow me to introduce more information. I am the minister of a church which will soon be merging with another not because one to failing but because both are growing and we see our ministry spreading into the same area. I really am seeking advise on designing a 'new' Sunday School for a church of 600. We are attemping to design groups that will provide outreach, worship, fellowship, discipleship and service. We are building small groups now (2years before we come together in the same building) and we see these as being the primary area to introduce these 5 things. However, we also see the need for addition education and are thinking of a large Sunday School class that will provide teaching and some outreach, along with small groups that will meet not only Sunday AM but throughout the week. We are looking at this merger as a new church plant so we can remove some traditions. Number of classrooms will be the main problem because we are putting a strong emphasis on the children's classes and high school. Does this additional information help or just muddies the waters? Brian

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Brian -

On a different thread a book was mentioned that you will find helpful, I think. It is "HIGH EXPECTATIONS: The Remarkable Secret For Keeping People In Your Church" by Thom S Rainer (c. 1999 Broadman & Holman Publishers, Nashville, ISBN 0-8054-1266-2 (pbk). I heard Thom Rainer speak about the research which went into this book, and it was very interesting. He is a strong supporter of the Sunday School concept, because all the research done shows that it works -- for all the points you listed (teaching, fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, personal growth).

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

"Most" kids I know don't really care for going to "regular" school either, yet would we consider cancelling school because "they don't like it".

Yes! Absolutly! I would, if I could, cancel school as it is today because it is "garbage in garbage out". Not much good.

The finest and most educated children I have ever met were home schooled and very polite and intelligent. Biblical, as stated in my above post.

Some of the dumbest kids are Public School Kids. A tool of Babylon the Great.

Think of it.

Kids are taught to go to school approx. 8 hours a day. Why? Because Babylon wants these kids to become good workers. Then after they get home they have to do HOMEWORK??? Oh yeh! Overtime??? Give me a break.

The Bible tells parents to teach their children and that is what I am going to stick too. Prove me wrong and I will change my opinion on this.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Brian,

Do you have a budget that can be spent "touring"? Use forums like this one and http://www.egroups.com/group/newchurches/ and http://www.egroups.com/group/ministerslist/ to find churches that have been in similar circumstances, then visit them and find out what they did well and what they did different -- and look at churches outside your denomination (or in a denomination if you are non-denominational) and borrow, borrow, borrow (what is scriptural). If you hear of something strange -- check it out!

The church planting I was involved in sent our children's ministry leaders to various places -- and they borrowed from here and there and developed a children's hour unlike anyone with our church had seen (they borrowed the most from Willow Creek Community Church outside of Chicago). The best part about it was that word of mouth our own kids spread at school and in their neighborhoods and to fellow members of youth sports teams, etc. Those kids came and visited, and wanted to come back again and again -- then many of the parents started coming to check out what had their kids so excited, and a good number stayed.

I bet something similar will happen to your church if you explore the possibilities fully. If it were me, I would start with the idea of small groups throughout the week, complemented with optional classes to meet particular needs. For your church, that might be various topical classes, maybe six weeks on prayer on mondays, then after that six weeks, 12 weeks on parenting skills on Thursdays. Or it could be a singles class studying Ephesians on Tuesday, a young marrieds studying Psalms on Wednesday, seniors studying Revelation on Sunday AM. That depends on your church, and could change from one year to the next. Next, I would find similar sized churches or churches that were similar sized and similar circumstances that adopted a similar idea and see how they fleshed out the details.

Whatever idea I would promote, I would always emphasis that we need to follow God's guidance and not let what is being done this year bind us forever. Two years from now, you might switch to something completely different, then again in five, etc. If you are doing exactly the same in ten years, I would question whether you were following tradition and not God. Let the congregation know that, teach them to be flexible and adapt themselves readily to new directions that God may lead.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

I don't disagree with you about it being the parents job to train up the child, Mark. The only point I disagreed on was that something should be cancelled because of the whims of a child. I know many will disagree with me here, but it is my contention that very few, if any, children (that includes teenagers) have the requisite background to make an intelligent decision on what is best for themselves. That is why there are adults...we make the choices, because we have the knowledge and experience to do what is best (theoretically anyway).

Another of my contentions is that Sunday School should not teach what the parents should be teaching. As a former jr high Sunday School teacher, one of my pet peeves was that the material was always "dumbed down" and not challenging to the students. (I think that is another reason why they get bored.)

The Sunday School is not for entertainment or babysitting. Nor is it to fill in the gaps for what lazy parents don't teach at home. So I think we are probably mostly in agreement Mark.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Dr. Dewey,

You said...

"As a former jr high Sunday School teacher, one of my pet peeves was that the material was always "dumbed down" and not challenging to the students. (I think that is another reason why they get bored.)"

That's exactly what my sons said re: school. Never taught them anything. I covered a lot of history, Bible, math, reading, etc.for them. I think I/we did a good job. I did send them to Public School but I did not allow some of there misteaching to stick in their heads. I pointed out misteachings to them and taught them the truth about many things.

It is the parents job and should be preached as such. Kids love to lay in bed with their parents and listen to a good story, did it all the time. Wished I had done it even more. But no real regrets, just think I could have done it better. And that is how to get things going. Get the parents doing it now then hopefully the kids will do it better for their children and on and on. You see!

God knows what he is talking about.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

I agree that the main responsibility falls on the parents, however, there are parents that are not equiped to do the job. We need to educate them as well as supplement for their children.

At our church we have a large group 1st - 4th grade children who meet together for drama, music and memory work and then split up into small groups to work on application and additional Bible Skills and memory work.

We are a fast growing church and are hurting for space. However, I would NEVER think of giving up the Sunday School hour. I think we do need to approach it in a different manner than most of us have experienced.

People are short on time. The hour we spend in Bible Study must be productive and meaningful to them. For the adults, that means more than lecture. We must get to the practicality of the message. There must be much more menoring than before. People are returning to church after being gone for years, or never even being a part of a church. We have adults who don't even know the basic Bible stories. We must menor these parents (and singles) so they will be equiped to help their children. We could even approach it in such a way as teaching them lessons they could teach their children. In the meantime the adults are also learning the lessons.

For space, we are keeping the children (nursery through 6th grade) at the church and using homes for other groups. We have small groups that meet on various nights of the week. For some, that is the only time they would be able to meet for Bible Study because of work. Many of those also attend Sunday Morning.

However it is done, for the adults, it must be worth their time. It must be jam-packed with Bible learning and be applicable.

Children and Youth must have it or we will perpetuate the ignorance of the word - not because they CAN'T learn it on their own, but becasue they don't know how.

It is important for these classes to be kept small or you will have another "sermon" time. A class of 50 people will not be able to discuss adequately and get to mentor each other.

Hazel

-- Anonymous, February 27, 2000