Man am I on a roll today!!!

In my thread on "Preaching Against the Lottery"....Michael Demastus points out his plan on dealing with people that he is aware of who are playing the lottery.

He points out (correct me if I state this wrong Michael)....that he will teach them. As he consistently teaches them....the uncomfortableness will lead them to a point of decision about whether to continue or not.

Now...I don't feel as strongly as Michael on the subject of the lottery....however, I agree with his methodology...i.e., consistent biblical teaching that confronts people, often uncomfortably to make a decision.

Now that being said....what happens when that "uncomfortableness" leads to a "conspiracy" to get rid of the preacher?? That is....rather than change....we'll get rid of the source of our uncomfort.

This happened in my last church. I confronted a situation that made individuals uncomfortable....and the conspiracy began. I was not fired...however....I was lied about....and mind games were played that made effective ministry impossible.

That's not the issue....here it is.

A "Do Gooder....spineless" preacher in the state of Florida recently felt it to be his God given responsibility to call up one of my employers and say...."Didn't you check him out....he had problems in his last church."

That was a cheap shot!!!

1) I was not asked to leave. I was under contract. I chose to leave when I saw effective mininstry was not going to happen.

2) The vast majority of us leave because we are not happy with the way things are going....which causes us to look for greener pasture.

3) Mostly, though, it failed to address this issue....maybe the problems were ones that needed to come to a head and did.....through direct biblical teaching.

We as preachers have a number of sins to repent of....but one of the biggest is the glee we take in seeing our brothers in arms struggle in their ministry. We so easily want to take the side of the church with the underlying feeling "I could do better than him."

Maybe you couldn't. Maybe he did his job as "the watchman"....sounded the warning.....made people uncomfortable....and paid the ultimate price.

Is his demise different than the other prophets....or Jesus Himself?? And....did Jesus not say..."They did it to me....they will do it to you."

I can see that in some churches....especially in the "river boat gambling rich Ohio Valley".....if Michael got up and preached that on a regular basis....he would be in trouble...quick.

It is my position that our job as preachers is not to make people feel comfortable. The Bible says that it is a mirror for which I can see my true sinful self. As I read the Bible...it does not pat me on the back and say..."Oh Danny....you are such a good and righteous guy."

No....it confronts me....daily....so that I have to deny myself, take up my cross, and follow Jesus. The only other option is rebellion against the King.

My father in law use to say...."I'm convinced that a man that is consistenly faithful to the teaching of the Word of God will not be able to stay in any one church for too terribly long."

I don't know if I agree with that fully. But I do know that we live in a day when society, including the church, is increasingly intolerant of being confronted about any of their possible failings.

Think of that next time men that you feel the need to be gleeful over a fallen soldier.

I say it's time we start "weeping in Zion."

And please.....do not respond with...."Sometimes it's the preacher's fault."

That is sometimes true. I'm convinced more often....it is not.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Answers

D. Lee....

Dont' take it personally as a woman....but....you missed the point of this post.....COMPLETELY!!!!!!

Try reading it again.....carefully....and see if you come away with the right idea.

Thanks!

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Ok Danny,

I can maintain my silence no longer.

You, for obvious reasons we share, have hit this nail right on the head. Preachers have always been attacked when they proclaim God's Word. It is a mirror to the soul and the person that looks back from that mirror is often real UGLY. The only differences between the person who fights back and the one who repents & changes are personality, attitude, and maturity.

Maturity comes from a combination of teaching & experience. Attitudes can "sometimes" be adjusted through teaching. But personality is the real killer. The person whose only purpose in life is to protect his own interests at all costs will always make life miserable for those that would "suggest" that a change is in order. That is the "occupational hazard" that preachers will always face.

When I first began preaching, I adopted the attitude that if everybody walked out of the church building each Sunday happy, cheerful, & without worry - Then I haven't done my job, at least not as Scripture would have me do it. Afterall, no one is ever going to come forward and except Christ as Savior, Master, & Lord unless they have been made uncomfortable enough to take such a bold step of faith.

I guess the bottom line here is that it is not us, the preachers of the world, that are at fault when people are made unconfortable. It's God's "fault" because it is His Word that is "active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of Soul and spirit".

As far as not being able to remain in any given church for too long because of such attitudes..........So What! The average adult in secular work today is probably going to change, not just jobs, but occupations at least 3 times in his life. Are we to be considered any different? Special? I would hope not. If anything, I think this very aspect of preaching brings us closer to our congregations, at least at times. Maybe this is easy for me to say since I've already changed secular jobs once and have, and am currently facing, a loss of this position too. Of course, since I looking at fulltime preaching this year anyway, this bothers me not at all.

And to be honest, the situation at our last church, has made the desire stronger in me to be the preacher that teaches & confronts when necessary, because obviously there are still many people out there, both in & out of the church, that need it. Not for my sake, but for the sake of their eternal souls.

As far as any preacher gloating over the troubles of another, "a pox upon them"(Shakespeare) If another's trouble is a concern for us - seek that person out and get the "full scoop". Taking someone else's version as the "gospel" is unscriptural and rumor-mongering. Even if a personal sin was the cause of their trouble, they can be brought back to the fold through our care, concern, & teaching.

Brothers - we have got too stick together - because there ain't too many others in the world that will "stick" for us.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

"My father in law use to say...."I'm convinced that a man that is consistenly faithful to the teaching of the Word of God will not be able to stay in any one church for too terribly long."

That's because the Preacher will kick him out of the Church if he knows to much! Had it happen 3 times.

Bet none of you preachers ever preach on the Kingdom of God. Why? Because you haven't taken the time to "Seek first the Kingdom."

Idea!

Hidden Ones

(Psa 83:3 KJV) "They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy HIDDEN ONES."

(Psa 83:4 KJV) "They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of ISRAEL may be no more in remembrance."

(Mat 13:44 KJV) "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto TREASURE HID in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field."

(Exo 19:5 KJV) "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar TREASURE unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:"

(Hosea 2:6 KJV) "Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she [Israel] shall not find her paths." In context ISRAEL will not be able to recognize who they are until...(Rom 11:25 KJV) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Maybe if you Preachers got involved with the word of God the people would get interested in what you're saying. Then maybe, if they don't like it, they will kick you out for a good reason.

One preacher told me I was forbidden to date any of the women in the church. What? He wanted them for himself??? Not really! He was just a kid wearing busy body pants.

Based on what authority does a preacher issue such nonsense? None!

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Now if this thread is any indication of the true state of the church we are in big trouble. It seems the battle lines have been drawn, Preachers against the church...the church against preachers... Preachers against preachers. In another thread...elders wives against...

Sorry Danny..."Sometimes it is the preacher's fault". Just as sometimes it is others in the body who are at fault. Though I do believe you preachers are held to the fryer more often and longer than any others. Your lively hood depends on the good nature of the congregation where you serve.

I too am convinced that more often than not...it is not the preachers fault.

We have congregations here that do nothing, preachers that are expected to do it all, preachers that can't or won't teach from the word for fear of losing their jobs.

Both sides are at fault...I personally know a preacher that when he first started his ministry with his congregation...mowed, cleaned, taught most classes, Bible studies, did all of the calling...and on and on.

1) It is wrong for the congregation to do nothing.

2) It is wrong for the preacher to do everything.

Both make for a sick, weak, immature body.

If the preacher continues to do everything...the people will continue to do nothing. And vise versa.

Where does it end?

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Mark W...

"Brothers - we have got too stick together - because there ain't too many others in the world that will "stick" for us."

When you say the above, I hope you mean..."Brothers (all Christians) - we have got to stick together - because there ain't too many others IN THE WORLD (non-Christians) that will "stick" for us."

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

D.Lee.......

My use of "Brothers" actually has a multiple meaning.

1) Yes, obviously all Christians should stick together.

2) But the whole point of this thread is that there are some out there IN THE CHURCHES that call themselves Christian, but do not "walk the talk". In the case of Danny's original post, the person involved acted ONLY out of evil and malevolent intent, there was no Christianity evident in his life or actions. (To answer Jim Spinnati's question on Judas & Satan, I have seen Satan incarnate at that place and his first name was not Judas, but it did start with a "J".) Because this is not an isolated case in the brotherhood, Preachers must stick together and not "backstab" each other like the incident Danny mentioned had just occurred to him, one year after the fact.

This is NOT an "us versus them" situation. It is more of an "us supporting us" situation. Have you ever noticed that there are not a lot of support groups for preachers. Some churches assign members to Flocks that are given guidance and help by one of the church Elders - rarely is the preacher, or his family, assigned to such a group. Either it is assumed that we know it all and don't need support or else no one really cares if we need such support - Both are horribly wrong ideas.

Mark H..........

I pray I have misunderstood your Statement, "Maybe if you Preachers got involved with the word of God the people would get interested in what you are saying." If you are impugning my (or many others' on this Forum) Bible study habits, I am HIGHLY insulted. Between earning a living, ministering part-time (driving 250 miles a week to do so), ministering to the needs of my family, and conducting my own personal Studies; I average 3 hours of sleep each night! Don't talk to me of "getting involved in the word of God.

Again Mark, I pray I have misunderstood you. If so, please correct my error so I can smooth down the hair that is standing on the back of my neck...:~)

Also Mark, I do preach on the Kingdom of God every time I stand up, though not on the future World Kingdom that your eschotology seems to promote. The present day Church of Jesus Christ is the Kingdom I strive to serve every waking hour of the day - all 21 hours of it.

Thank you, and have a nice day,

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Mark Wisniewski,

"I pray I have misunderstood your Statement, "Maybe if you Preachers got involved with the word of God the people would get interested in what you are saying." If you are impugning my (or many others' on this Forum) Bible study habits, I am HIGHLY insulted"

Take it personally! IMO the most dangerous job on earth is to be a preacher. I think God holds the pastors to a very high degree of responsiblity and the Scriptures hold that opinion also.

(Jer 23:2 KJV) "Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD."

And there are others to quote but you can do that yourself.

Hackle raising is a good thing. When your out in the woods at night and you hear something creeping the hackles raise and say, "SOMETHING IS WRONG, DANGER."

I asked my last preacher why he didn't preach on prophesy. He replied, "Because I don't know anything about it. I think it would be a good idea to start to know something about it.

My personal plan of action was this. "Father in Heaven, I don't care what the Church leaders say is the truth re: all these things in the Bible and what is happening in the world, I want to know the TRUTH."

That was approx twenty five years ago. And I still know so little.

(Prov 9:8 KJV) "Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee."

Love ya man!

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Just another thought on this "get into the Bible."

I knew a sorta preacher who had actually memorized at least half the Bible and could run it off word for word. George is his name and preaching is his game. He preached at our church one Sunday (actually rolling on the floor) and started Quoting from memory a gazillion verses word for word.

Nothing wrong with that except he left off "the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

He couldn't figure out why his wife left him.

He could quote but he could not teach a thing re: the Kingdom of God. Seek first the Kingdom...

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Ok Mark,

I think I understand your point now. Yours was not a personal attack, but more of a general warning for preachers to make sure they preach and act upon God's Words & not their own???? That I can live with.

You are right about a preacher facing dire consequences for that which they say and do. Rare is the day that I sit down to write a sermon without first quoting to myself both James 3:1 and I Cor. 1:22- 25.

It might be "risky" to preach the Gospel the way God intended it to be done, but I feel that greater is the risk of standing by and doing nothing, thereby letting both the world AND the church go to "Hell in a Handbasket".

If you have been wronged by preachers in the past, I can relate as my family was too, many, many years ago. Unfortunately, I am the only one of the bunch who has returned to the church. That pain is as real as what Danny & I felt this past year from the opposite side of the coin.

I just thank God That one day all the pain will go away and all who remain faithful will be joined at the throne of our Lord & Savior.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Danny,

No need to put a "warning label" on any statement you make to me because I am a woman. I am not Nelta. (LOL!)

I did reread your original post...hopefully I am understanding your intent...

Sounding the warning...will always make people uncomfortable...and it is unfortunate those sounding the warning will oft times pay the ultimate price. As you say, we are forewarned and so should be prepared...even expecting this to happen. Unfortunately the hurt not only to self but to family, the body of Christ, and even Christ Himself causes many problems.

If Christians in general are doing our jobs evangelizing and being our brothers keeper, this not only happens to preachers (though because of your positions - it will happen to you guys more often) but to the rest also.

It is true that those who preach/teach it like it is will always be persecuted, unjustly accused, run out of town on a rail etc...

I am encouraged by your example, and have much respect for you...in the face of such oppositions... you stand on the Word!!

Forgive me for misunderstanding your intent in my last response to you. Maybe that should be another thread.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000

"This is NOT an "us versus them" situation. It is more of an "us supporting us" situation. Have you ever noticed that there are not a lot of support groups for preachers. Some churches assign members to Flocks that are given guidance and help by one of the church Elders - rarely is the preacher, or his family, assigned to such a group. Either it is assumed that we know it all and don't need support or else no one really cares if we need such support - Both are horribly wrong ideas."

Mark W... I agree with what you have said above!

Our congregation has what we call shepherding groups. The whole congregation is broken down and divided among the elders and the evangelist.

The evangelist works with all new people or non-Christians until it is determined that they have followed the gospel or until they submit to the gospel, at which time they are moved to one of the elders groups.

The preacher/evangelist and his family are in one of the groups shepherded by an elder. This seems to really work. None are overlooked.

I am wondering how many of you preachers are as Mark says left on your own so-to-speak with no support?

BTW...each elder is also in the preacher's group. This helps the leadership support one another, counsel one another, and hold each other accountable.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000

D. Lee.........

It sounds like you have a really good support system at your church - please be thankful for it everyday. We have a good system at my current church as well and it is like having a little piece of "heaven on earth". Maybe that is just one of God's ways of recompensing those who stand up for the truth, especially in the face of adversity.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000