The Lottery?? Do You Preach Against It??greenspun.com : LUSENET : The Christian Church : One Thread |
Here is another fun one.....What about Christians playing the lottery?? You know good in well probably a good number of your folk do it.
Do you preach against it?? If so, what is your scriptural basis??
And....here's the big one. Let's say you preach against it....and....one of the couples in your church wins the lottery and wants to donate a million to the church. Do you turn it down? Or....do you take it with the subverted logic, "The devil's had it long enough." ha!!
I'm serious....what's your position??
I know I'm throwing a lot of stuff out here. But all the sudden (I don't know if it has to do with getting older, wiser, or softer)...I'm realizing we have preached against a lot of things that, in my opinion, at best we have had to pull at straws for scriptural support.
It's only fair I share my position.
I would not preach against it.....but I would "advise" against it...for the same reason I don't participate....it is simply bad stewardship. It is a bad investment.
My money is better spent on sound investments...be it mutual funds, stock market, etc.
I simply think it is a waste of money. But then, maybe others have more to waste then I do.
As far as accepting the money....that decision would best be left to the elders and I would honor whatever they decide.
What do you say??
-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000
Mark and Michael....Thanks for the response. Not a thing neither of you said would I disagree with....outside of your strong resistance. I'm not that convinced. I'm opinionated on the issue....but not that dogmatic (does that make sense)??
Anyway....Mark's response relies more heavily on his opinons....Michael's response relies more heavily on the "gambling" side of it.
So Michael....I want to probe you futher.
Let's break it down into two questions...
1) You have a couple in your church that you know for a fact buys $5 worth of lottery tickets per week. What's your reaction?? Is it a test of fellowship?? Do you confront them about it?? If they don't repent, do you talk to the elders about them?? In other words....how far are you willing to push it if you in fact see it as biblically wrong?? For instance, if there is a man in the church that is cheating on his wife....I would push it all the way trough the full steps of church discipline. Would you do it for this?? Or, do you eventually find yourself lining it up in the category of "Christian liberty?" Is it worth causing a conflict in church??
2) Same question applies to the leadership. Would you resist a man from becoming an elder whom you knew readily admits he buys a couple of lottery tickets per week??.....or possibly he and the wife do the "riverboat thing" once in a while??
Thanks for taking the time to explore this with me. In no way shape or form am I being argumentative. I'm simply trying to do two things....1) Understand thought processes; 2) Understand what things we "do" or "do not" make tests of fellowships and why?
Thanks again!
-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000
Michael....I appreciate your answer.
Don't know that I feel that strongly about it.
I still operate from the premise of saying, "It's just not a smart thing to do".....and from the stewardship principle.
To call it a sin that needs to be confronted is uncomfortable for me.
However, your posts brings up another good subject that I will put on another thread called "When Uncomfort Leads to Conspiracy."
Thanks Michael.
-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000
It's late.....so I'm not going to answer it now.But I see a huge difference between the "lottery"....and the "stock market."
I'm not a lottery supporter and/or player as you already know.
But I am in the stock market.
I'll explain the difference the way I see it tomorrow.
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
Alright....I still got a Sunday night sermon to write and a hospital to visit....but....I'll take time to fulfill my promise.The difference between the lottery and the stock market......
1) Principle of the Lottery: In order for me to win.....everyone else has to lose. (This is one of the basic reasons I don't play....sounds like an "un-Christian" principle to me.)
Basic princple of the stock market.....everyone wins....I win....everyone loses....I lose.
The stock market, in essence, is like any other business. When you start a new business and invest capital....the business may or may not go.
2) Lottery is not based upon a work ethic.
Stock market is.....people who are "WORKING" to make money. Work, as Michael "D" pointed out....is a God ordained method of acquiring wealth.
3) Lottery requires no thought process.
Stock market....to be good at it....requires countless hours of research and investigation.
4) Lottery is bad stewardship.
Good investing is good stewardship. I've started investing since October of last year and to date have made $300 which is about $275 more than I would have made in a savings account. Just good stewardship.
From my vantage point.....lottery and stockmarket.....are equivalent to apples and oranges. No comparison.
-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000
Hey Darrell....I understand your questions....which leads to why....I have a hard time being being dogmatic about these things anymore.
-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000
Sam.....Nor should they have been forced to by an overzealous govt.
What's next.....red meat??
As Drew Carey says, "I resent the govt. telling me how many ways I can harm myself."
-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000
Call me lax if you want Michael. I'm just not going to make issues over things anymore that do not have a clear..."thus saiith the Lord."I don't have it in me anymore.
Some of it has to do with maturity......realizing....there are only so many things you can make a stand on before people tire of hearing it.
I guess you could say...."I pick my shots now." And when I pick my shots....I want an undisputable "thus saith the Lord" to back me up.
That's my personal choice....I'm not suggesting it is right....or that it is the correct one for you or anyone else.
Just the voice of an 18 year veteran who wants to make it 25 more years.
God bless your zeal and your efforts for Him.
-- Anonymous, February 13, 2000
Danny,I vehemently oppose the lottery on several grounds
1) Playing the lottery, as you mention, is poor stewartship.
2) The lottery exploits the poor; its pretty much a regressive tax. The poor not only spend a higher proportion of their income on the lottery than the rest, but spend more in actual raw dollars.
Of course, some will say the lottery is voluntary, but the lottery at best exploits the stupid (take a basic probabilty class to see what I mean) and at worst exploits those looking for any hope they can grab. In the best case scenario, the government has a stake in keeping dumb people dumb.
This might not sound like a biblical argument, but it is: we are instructed to love God and love others. That love will not let me support state-sponsored lotteries.
3) Lottery is gambling. Is gambling a sin? Whether it is a sin for everyone or not, there are many for whom it is due to their personality and weaknesses. Some will argue that gambling for the sake of entertainment purposes only isn't sinful -- but scratching a card or picking numbers is fun?
4) Government run lotteries are bad government. This is, obviously, a matter of opinion. I make this judgement based on the history of lotteries: a) after the novelty wears off, the games require increasing amounts of costly promotions to keep the revenue stream up -- making the lottery a very inefficient revenue producer for government b) most state run lotteries promise that the revenue will be directed for a special purpose -- but in every case, lottery dollars merely replace other state revenues which get shifted to other purposes.
-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000
Danny....Good one! Yes, brother I have and I do preach against it. I see it as a sin clear-cut. I have so many folks that justify, rationalize, and defend it, but what's new...most sins are. Gambling is not "just taking a chance, or "just getting something for nothing," or even "risking money to make money." Gambling is a wager placed on a chance. The outcome of a ballgame is a chance (unless your the Cubs, they always lose)...a wager on that chance is gamble. Life is uncertain, and is in that sense a chance, but chance within itself is not a gamble.
"Gambling is the act of risking what is yours to get what belongs to another and give nothing in return." (Stafford North, How Much Risk in Gambling, pg. 4-6)
The hermeneutic idea that because it is absent in Scripture means that there is nothing to say on the issue is falty and dangerous at best. The word gamble is not in Scripture, but neither is the word rape, manslaughter, larceny, suicide, embezzling, bootlegging, white slavery, racketeering. But we aren't to conclude that the evils involved in all of these (including gambling) are clearly and repeatedly condemned. The Word of God sets forth principles which are in direct conflict with the practice of gambling.
Christians are taught to work, to exercise stewardship over what they possess, to love their neighbor, and to exert the proper influence, all of which principles are violated if an individual gambles.
Let's apply logic...Scripture includes four ways of acquiring wealth or possessions.
1. The law of love in which something is given without any desire of receiving anything in return. 2. The law of exchange in which a commodity is exchanged for its value. 3. The law of labor in which one earns by time and energy expended the money he/she receives. 4. Theft.
Where does gambling fit in best?
You know as well as I what pevasive evils gambling has brought on to our society. I have personally ministered to two fractured and devestated families that were that way as a result of a gambling addiction.
I did not include a litany of Scripture references, but the violations are clear and the references are available if you'd like. This one is clear-cut with me.
And in no way shape or form would I accept the monies won from a gambling exercise. I would resign from the church. That is my earnest conviction. I can not see God having his hand of blessing in something like that.
-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000
Danny, You wrote:1) You have a couple in your church that you know for a fact buys $5 worth of lottery tickets per week. What's your reaction?? Is it a test of fellowship?? Do you confront them about it?? If they don't repent, do you talk to the elders about them?? In other words....how far are you willing to push it if you in fact see it as biblically wrong?? For instance, if there is a man in the church that is cheating on his wife....I would push it all the way trough the full steps of church discipline. Would you do it for this?? Or, do you eventually find yourself lining it up in the category of "Christian liberty?" Is it worth causing a conflict in church??
My reaction is that I am certainly not happy with it. I also have couples in serious marital difficulties. My reaction is not one of jump on them and condemn their sin, but one of (excuse the term) a "pastor". I teach and gently, tactfully and lovingly confront. Now noone is barred from walking in the doors and worshipping with us here. Not even the man caught in the sin of homosexuality. Will he remain in that condition? I don't know but I do know that he will become increasingly uncomfortable with what is taught and preached on regularly. He will face a choice at some point. If this makes any sense this would be my approach.
You also wrote:
Same question applies to the leadership. Would you resist a man from becoming an elder whom you knew readily admits he buys a couple of lottery tickets per week??.....or possibly he and the wife do the "riverboat thing" once in a while??
Most certainly.
-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000
Prov 23:4 Do not wear yourself out to get rich; have the wisdom to show restraint.Prov 28:20 A faithful man will be richly blessed, but one eager to get rich will not go unpunished.
1 Tim 6:9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
I can see that we should not be eager to get rich, and that people who WANT to get rich bring trouble upon themselves...
I don't know of any other reason to play the lottery, than to get rich quick.
But...is there a difference between that and gambling for entertainment?
Example: I go to the movies and spend X amount of dollars. or instead...I gamble with the same amount with no intent in my heart of seeking after riches.
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
I think the answer to this is similar to the one on drinking. It is a matter of personal conscience, but there are some clear no-brainer points.I personally don't play the lottery. Been to Reno a couple of times though. I didn't think there was anything wrong with pulling the lever for the sake of entertainment. By "entertainment" I mean that I started with a specific amount of money that I already decided I would spend and could afford to lose, and when that was gone, my playing stopped. The principle behind this is similar to the one of having one drink with dinner, and no more. No excess, no impulsiveness, total control.
What I have against lotteries and gambling is that most people don't look at it as entertainment, but getting rich quick. The lottery is a bad retirement plan. I agree with Mark on this -- lotteries and gambling exploit those who can least afford to play. I've lived in several states wtih lotteries, and one with legal gambling. Its not the rich people who gamble, but the poor locals, who put everything into the establishment hoping to get rich quick.
Just as it is possible to drink to excess, it is possible to gamble to excess, and have it be an addiction just as surely as alcoholism is. I would not condemn someone for buying $5 worth of lottery tickets a month. I would confront, however, someone who put $500 a month into lottery tickets and neglected their family and personal obligations. The "sin" in my mind isn't the lottery itself, its the excessive and obsessive behavior which can result. The sin is that by being an obsessive gambler the individual has made gambling their "god" because the act of gambling is expected to meet their every need. We are supposed to rely on God for our daily needs, not the lotto.
I know that not everyone will agree with this, but it is my basic conviction. Sin is not an object -- sin is a behavior. So a lottery is not a sin, but the behavior of those who rely on it instead of God is.
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
I say Baloney...with a capital "B". You have done just exactly what I said earlier Dewey, you justified your sin by saying you were in complete control. Oh really...what if that slot arm you pulled happen to give you $1 million. Would you have been in control then?To gamble violates so many Christian principles it isn't even funny. Namely love your neighbor as yourself. You can justify Dewey all you want for pulling down the arm of a slot machine, but I'll keep calling the spade a spade and say it is sin.
You look at my above post where I told Danny that there are four ways of acquiring wealth and possessions in Scripture...I asked, "Where does gambling fit in?" You know good and well where it fits in. It is theft. Lottery, gambling is sin, pure and simple.
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
Michael and others,Do you similarly counsel your people against high-risk investments that are taken in stock trade? Isn't the bubble.com craze gambling as well?
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
Gads, Michael, such venom!I justified nothing. On the contrary, I accepted responsibility for my own actions by stating that I acted on my own conscience. And I also expect people to be held accountable for their irresponsibility.
Michael, whether you know it or not, you deny the concept of free will and free conscience. You also oversimplify. Gambling is theft only when the person gambling is unwilling. (Stealing: to take and carry away without right or permission. [Merriam-Webster Dictionary]) If I willingly chose to lose money, then it is not theft.
Like I have said on previous posts, life is not either/or. It is not balck or white. There are multitudes of choices. Each individual is ALLOWED to make their own choices on certain matters (and it is biblical, under the principle of the priesthood of the believer). Its obvious that you have your convictions, Michael, and I will respect that. What I don't respect is how you responded, and I will call you to task for your attitude toward me in your response. No doubt you will now "justify" your actions by stating some "baloney" about your need to "confront sin." The truth of the Gospel may be offensive, but WE are not supposed to be, especially if we act out the Christian principle of loving our neighbor as ourselves. I am sure you would be offended personally if I spoke to you the way you just did to me.
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
If the lottery is gambling for the "stupid"......is the stock market gambling for the "smart"? What say U the difference? Just curious? :) KRC
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
Okay -- a couple of folks have brought up an intersting idea here ... just how do you define gambling? Preachers used to preach agains gambling because anytime you were involved in it, you were doing something illegal ... unless in Atlantic City or Vegas.
Today you can legally gamble most everywhere ... lottery, horse track, riverboats, cruise ships, etc.
Is investing a gamble? What about taking out life insurance (you are gambling that you will die and your family will get the $$$). Just where do we draw this line? And for those who are 100% against the lottery, where do YOU draw the line?
Darrell H Combs
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
Kathy, GREAT point! I guess I am neither smart or stupid.... I don't play the lottery or the stock market! I hope things are going well, Sister! :0) Teresa
-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000
Danny -- I agree. Lottery -vs- stock market is no contest.
But our discussion did turn to gambling, not just lottery. What about someone who "plays the horses" professionally?
Having been raised in horse racing country, I know for a fact that there are many who make it their profession to play the ponies. And I also know that they spend as much time researching their work as people who play the stock market do.
Just thinking out load, so to speak.
Darrell H Combs
-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000
Down here in my area, North Carolina, the lottery is a big question, on account of folks who make it their yearly mission to get a referendum on it.But a bigger problem for the churches is the question of the tobacco farmer. Hundreds of churches have thousands of members who have made their livlihood from the raising and selling of tobacco for 8 to ten generations or more. What do we say to the man whose family is dependent upon the proceeds of a product grown almost exclusively for use in a way that kills you? Men and women who have spent their lives in tobacco can't just start growing corn. The work is different, the tools and machines are different, the processes are different, the market is already full . . . you can't just easliy switch from one to the other.
And many of these folks ahve spent their lives as the best Christians they know how to be. Shall we tell them that they're killing people, and God will hold them accountable?
I don't have a good answer for this one.
-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000
Anyone besides me find it peculiar that our government wants to legislate tobacco (not that I'm for tobacco), putting on it a so-called "sin" tax, yet when it comes to abortion, they say, "you can't legislate morality?"
-- Anonymous, February 12, 2000
I've been wrestling with an issue lately that this thread has got me thinking about. Because our church URL is so long, I started using a virtual redirection service to shorten it, so our members and others could easily remember it. I thought it was really neat, just type in come.to/qhcc. They just put a pop-up banner add when they redirect to your site. And since it is a ".to" address, which is registered in Tonga, I figured I wouldn't have any problems with pornographic banner ads (Tonga is a Christian nation and they have very strict rules about that). The problem is, every now and then one of the banner ads is for one of those online gaming sites. Very rare but it does happen. So, what to do, what to do. I am thinking of posting a disclaimer at the top of the page ... or I could try to convince the elders to put out $18 and they will take the banner ads away. If I got rid of it entirely, a lot of people would be sore; we've had things printed with it on there. And the older folks just can't remember those long URLs.
-- Anonymous, February 12, 2000
Darrell...You said that some guys really "work" and "investigate" "playing the ponies."
Thieves also "work" at burglary and "investigate" the houses they case out for a robbery. Do we need to reconsider our position on stealing now?
-- Anonymous, February 12, 2000
Well, God's wonders never cease. Just to let you know, my request was approved and we will no longer be advertizing gambling from our site, even by accident. :)
-- Anonymous, February 13, 2000
Come on Michael ... that is against the law ... something totally different.
The point I am trying to make is, what is the difference between LEGAL gambling on slots, the ponies, Vegas-style stuff, and other legal activities that (a) are a gamble, and (b) are to make more money?
I wonder if our feelings against gambling stem at least somewhat from the idea that, until very recently, most gambling WAS against the law?
Darrell H Combs
-- Anonymous, February 13, 2000
Darrell...So?! There are many movements to legalize smoking marijuana. Does that mean we will have another view of it then after it is legalized? Don't base your views on man's laws. Man's laws are corrupted at best, God's laws are uncorruptable.
The fact that gambling has been legalized changes nothing about how gambling violates the work ethic in Scripture, the love your neighbor principle, the not loving money principle...and many others. It is sin, pure and simple.
We should not complain when our people are confused and have laxed morals because we, as preachers, don't have a clear voice anymore. We rationalize...argue over...and justify sinful behaviors. Not here.
-- Anonymous, February 13, 2000