This is a take-off on my question about abstinence in drinking.

Some are probably thinking...."Oh boy....Danny is turning worldly on this drinking issue??"

Let's examine that.

I enjoy playing cards. 25 years ago.....playing cards was considered "worldly" by the church and preached against vehemently.

My wife enjoys wearing pants....sometimes to church. 25 years ago....that was a "wordly sin" to be repented of.

Add to the list of worldy things 25 years ago.....movies (or more specifically..."the movie house", mixed swimming, dancing in any form, makeup, et. al.).

So the question is....worldliness....what is it??? Who defines it??

This ought to get things rolling.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Answers

Michael....

It makes sense....just doesn't answer my question. ha!!!

Probably my fault for not asking it right.

Let me ask again with just one example.

We hear the word "worliness" thrown around in the church a lot.

I want to know......what is wordliness?...i.e., what conduct of mine can be accurately described as worldy and therfore should be a cause of concern to my Christian conscience??

Now the example.....card playing.

25-30 years ago....to play any game of cards was considered "worldy." I remember Jenny talking about her grandparents putting the cards away when the preacher came to visit. (By the way....the preacher was Roger Chambers.)

Now people play cards...even in church. As you probably know, your grandma is a real card shark!!

You see...someone changed the definition of worldly. What used to be "worldly" is no longer "worldly."

I could go on "ad naseum" with other examples.

Therefore, "wordliness".....what is it??....who decides??

We having fun yet??

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Very good thoughts Elaine....very well presented.

For what it is worth....I concur.

God's best to you.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000

Danny...

John 3:16 states that "God so loved the world"...and then we have 1 John 2:15 which states "Do not love the world." There is not much help from Greek in the specifics of what you ask other than this. When kosmos contextually refers to people (John 3:16), the world must be loved. But when it is employed to refer to a system that is evil and under the dominion of Satan, then we must hate the world. Does that make any sense?

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Good lines of thought you are starting here, Danny.

As you mentioned, most understanding of the meaning of worldliness would seem to be relative or, better, shifting.

The earliest challenge to my understanding of worldliness was the story of a missionary to the natives of some Pacifica nation. There, toplessness was the norm. For assemblies, though, for his own peace of mind, he bought and distributed T-shirts for the women, mumbling something about his cultural thinking and the way they dressed, and would they wear for his own comfort. They did, but misunderstood -- each of them modified the shirts so that their shoulders were covered, but nothing else above the waist was.

I don't have an answer, I merely want to prompt thinking with a refining question: can worldliness, whatever it is, be clearly defined in terms independent of one's culture or times?

Actually, maybe I do have an answer. Let me propose a starting point: is worldliness merely a subset of the many forms of idoltry? Maybe all idoltry is either worldliness (obsessions or misplaced passion with things of the world) or religion (non-Christian religions, false teachings, false gods, legalism/rules and regulations like 'don't play cards').

Enough stream of consciousness.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

Maybe being worldly has to do with obeying Gods Laws as opposed to The Laws of Babylon. (Rev 13:4 KJV) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Remember the three in Daniel who would not bow to the System. They were thrown into the fire and lived.

It is a long study but the Law of God is not "done away with". The sacrificial, ritualistic ordinances are done. Gods Law will always be in affect. Love God and Love Neighbor. Hard to say you love your neighbor if, for instance, you charge him interest on a loan. Babylon loves to charge interest but a Christian should never conform to the Law of Babylon by charging interest to his brother.

So, if you say you love God but charge interest to your brother then you show by your action that you are a liar. If you lend the money or give it to your brother then you show that you love God and your brother, even if it hurts. This is "other worldly" Kingdom Stuff.

-- Anonymous, February 10, 2000

Danny, I thought about how to best phrase my thoughts overnight, before posting. Let me couch them in a little background of how I came to realize my own position on your good question of what is and who defines worldliness.

I was a deeply committed Christian who wished to study and spread the Word of God, and who even in high school took Bible courses through the Jack Wyrtzen school. Then in 1952 at age 16 I entered a famous Bibe Institute because my family would not allow me to go to the Bible College of my choice, on condition that I first "try" their choice. At the institute, the rules of dress were stringent: gloves, hat and nylons to leave campus, even to get toothpaste, and blouses under sweaters, and no tight skirts. I transferred to the college, which taught The Victorious Christian Life movement, and found it even more stringent. The dean of women made life hard for the undergrad girls, setting her standard of holiness as being God's word. She actually told me that because I planned to be a missionary, I should not casually date anyone who was planning on being a minister! And not to wear earrings. Each as from God via her. There were nervous breakdowns, exits (voluntary and involuntary) from the school, and a general sense of tension at all times. Students were asked to report one another for infractions, even of the lights-out rule, even if by a few minutes. You get the picture. This led me to leave after my junior year, to marry a seminarian, after finding out no mission board would accept me anyway with a low thyroid. I graduated in late life finally from a rational and conservative and wonderful Christian college, Trinity Intl. University of Deerfield, IL. But I lost a lot in between that seriously damaged my life from this damaging beginning my eager soul experienced while seeking holiness.

This caused me to examine seriously who sets standards of worldliness and what it is.

In many years of seeking that answer, I have concluded that no man can declare for another man what is worldly and tell him to live by his own standard. Each man must come humbly before the Lord and seek His face on the matter of what is right for him.

With that said, I see the Scriptures as being the only absolute authority, and find in it the principles which, if taught faithfully to one's flock, should ensure that they find the mind of God on their individual standards. What does the scripture say?

Jesus said "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." (Matt. 5:8) which tells me that inner purity is paramount to Him.

Paul says athat we are to be "perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (II Cor. 7:1)

And that we are to have "hearts unblamable in holiness." (I Thess. 3:13 and to "share His holiness." (Heb. 12.10)

He reminds us that our bodies are temples and that "the temple of God is holy." (I Cor. 3:17) He again says we are to "be holy and blameless before him." (Eph. 1:4, Col. 1:22)

That we are to "keep your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice." (Rom. 12:1)

Ephesians 4 is a whole moving chapter on how not to grieve the Spirit of God.

But what encourages this holiness? Paul tells us in Phil. 4:8 that we are to guard our minds, and "whatever is true...honorable...right...pure...lovely...of good repute...if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, let your mind dwell on these things."

I believe that if we can bring our minds into this type of obedience, and feast on the Word constantly, the Lord Himself will reveal to us what worldliness is and is not, and we will produce this in our lives as a result of being close to the Holy of Holies.

If we preach this, the Lord will convict each of us, and our congregants, of what things need to be shed from our lives. We do not need anyone else to prescribe or proscribe for us. Long before I entered Bible college, the Lord had already shown me His own standard for me, as He does again today. It was much deeper than anything that was forced upon us in school!

P.S. In 1988 when I visited that institute, the kids were running around the halls in shorts and sandals, sans nylons, and sexy sweaters, with open buttons at the top. Interesting.

-- Anonymous, February 11, 2000

Its funny you ask that question because the scope of it is monumental .what is wordlines? and how can it be defined .Personally to me it is choosing to have ,live and fellowship with anything but God.Why do we trust and live by the worlds standards instead of god.Why do we settle for the worlds redefining definition such as love ,peace and joy when the worlds definition for love is selfish lustful and looking out for no.1 Or for peace they run to prescription bottles Or for joy whenever good comes into their lives.Im convinced that this world chooses the love of pleasure and ungodly entertainment more than lovers of god.You see it begins with our committment to choose first the interestof god waysIf we choose god love we will be real men and women who grow into maturity by feasting on his word and growing in grace than we will know that the world substitute cannot cohabit withgodly men and women

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2001

Its funny you ask that question because the scope of it is monumental .what is wordlines? and how can it be defined .Personally to me it is choosing to have ,live and fellowship with anything but God.Why do we trust and live by the worlds standards instead of god.Why do we settle for the worlds redefining definition such as love ,peace and joy when the worlds definition for love is selfish lustful and looking out for no.1 Or for peace they run to prescription bottles Or for joy whenever good comes into their lives.Im convinced that this world chooses the love of pleasure and ungodly entertainment, more than lovers of god.You see it begins with our committment to choose first the interest of god ways.If we choose god love, we will be real men and women who grow into maturity by feasting on his word, and growing in grace. than we will know that the world substitute cannot cohabit withgodly men and women

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2001

Dennis

Are you from Illinois?

-- Anonymous, June 03, 2001

no, why you ask?

-- Anonymous, June 04, 2001