I thought it best I clarify something. Sure, I believe in elders (older Christians) who God holds responsible for guiding and teaching the less mature in the faith. Those who are less mature must want to listen to the elder people who should be apt to teach and guide them. First and foremost is the godly life the older people live in front of and in the presence of others.

The elder people do not, however, work through anything or anywhere. Their obligation is to meet the spriritual needs of those they are leading. This happens, not in the gatherings but in their daily lives. Not in a Church building but as they interact with those they are trying to guide and help stay on the narrow road. This is not necessarily group activity but individual.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

Answers

Mark....

What does you last post have to do with anything??

I've know Michael a lot longer than you....and not once have I have seen him wear robes.....and platitudes have never come from his mouth.

He is every bit as committed to the Word of God as you are.

You may not agree with him, but your "ad hominem" attacks only discredit anything you say.

Respectfully,

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

Fine...and I believe in the tooth fairy. The problem is that my belief in the tooth fairy and your belief about elders has nothing to do with Scripture but everything to do with how I feel about the subject.

Nelta...your view is not a-typical but quite typical of the group of people I know that have a background from the a capella tradition who now worship men like Shelly and Beam (and they are great men, mind you) and fantasize about your ideal non-biblical church.

1 Timothy 3 or Titus 2 is not important to your "wise old sage" view of eldership. In fact, your view sounds a lot like the guru teaching of Hinduism. Sounds great, Nelta...but as is so often the case with your views, it ain't Bible.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

You pontificate, Mike. And take me out of the list with those two men you mentioned. I wouldn't walk across the road to hear them. As far as I am concern they have *run so far from tradition that they ran right past Jersulem.*

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

(Mat 23:5 KJV) "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,"

(Mat 23:6 KJV) "And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,"

(Mat 23:7 KJV) "And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi."

What Jesus said re: Religious leaders.

Nothing is more disgusting than to watch a priest or preacher get up in his Religious Garb, strut to the pulpit and spew his platitudes.

(Mat 23:8 KJV) "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren."

(Mat 23:9 KJV) "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."

-- Anonymous, February 08, 2000

Nelta:

I see that you still want to teach this false doctrine that the elders in the church are nothing more than the "older Christians" in the church and that they have no authority in the church. You tried to teach this in another thread and you were sufficently answered. You did not even attempt to deal with the responses that you received. According to you, Nelta, when Paul told Titus to "appoint elders in every city as I have charged thee..." (Titus 1:5) he did so because there we no "old people" in the church and therefore it was necessary for Titus to "appoint" some! How obsurd can anything be. We grow old in life but I have never met an old person who became such by "appoitment". Then Paul gave certian qualifications that one must possess before he could be "qualified" to be appointed as an "older Person". " If a man be blameless, the husband of one wife..." Titus 1:6. Therefore, if elders were nothing more than the "old people" in the church then one could not be "appointed" as an "older person" in the church unless that person was "male" and was the husband of one wife. If they did not meet these requirments they could not be "old pepole". Now the absurdity of your false doctrine should be clear to all. In fact, I am convimnced that it is clear to any thinking and honest person. But you refuse to even attempt to answer those who have responded to you in thses matters. No, Nelta, the elders are not just the "older people" in the church. For they are to be "appointed" if and only if they meet the qualifications outlined in 1 TImothy 3 and Titus 1.

Now that there is in the New Testament a "post of oversight" which is referred to by the words "Elder", overseer, and Shepherd cannot be doubted by anyone who is a serious and diligent student of the word of God. Now we have shown you to be in error on these things. You even fallaciously argue that there is no "Greek word for authority in the New Testament". I will therefore quote our answer to you which you continue to ignore so that all can see that there is clearly much more to the elders of the New Testament than merely being an "older Person" who is mature in the faith and that they do have authority in the church and that they have been given that authority to go with the responsibility and accoutability that Christ has given to them to watch for our souls. Heb. 13:17;Acts 15; 1Peter 5:1.

Now they are not to be "Lords over God's heritage" but be ensamples to the flock. They are to exersize their authority in the samme manner and for the same purpose that Christ our Lord exersized His authoity. For the salvation of the souls that are among them. They cannot exersize their authority in the same manner and the same purpose as the leaders of the world for such "shall no be so among you" as Christ our Lord has clearly said. But they have authority for the scriptures are clear that they do. Now, that ther does exist among us men who have been appoited th office of an elder or overseer who should never have been appointed there is no doubt. That we have men, who are elders, in some congregations who fail to walk uprightly according to the very word of God I do not doubt. But let us rebuke those whom we can establish with evidence that they are unfaithful to Christ rather than condemning the fathful who are doing the very work that Christ has given them to do. But your proceedure is to condemn the very idea of the elders having authority in the church. This is false doctrine and I urge you to repent of teaching such things, and I continue to call upon you to repent of your false accusations against Brother Danny in this forum wherein you falsely accused him of "having something against women. You have much to correct here Nelta. I am speaking to you because your soul is in danger. You have sinned in these matters and refuse to even think of repenting for your deceptions and lies. Yet, you think that you can tell us about what "spiritual" leadership should be. You example in this forum is completely contrary to your words about spiritual leadership.

My post following this one contains the arguments that I presented to you on the subject of elders which you have completely ignored. Inasmuch as you seem to want to continue to discuss "elders" and that you intend to continue to teach this false doctrine that they are nothing more than the "older people" in the church and that there is no "Greek word for authority in the New Testament and therefore the elders do not have any authority I challenge you to answer the arguments that have been put to you in this and all of the other post which you have ignored.

It is clear that you do not want to hear what others say to you and their admonishions from the word of God. You only want to BE HEARD. Well, Nelta, we have heard your false doctrine and we have responded with arguments that you cannot answer. So you refuse to hear what we have said to you. It is clear that all you want is a "one way" conversation. We must accept what Nelta says without question, even though it is completely contrary to the teaching of God's eternal word.

I pray that you will repent Nelta for your sins against your brethren which you have committed in this forum and that you will turn from your false doctrine. For you are by it rejecting even the authority and Lordship of opur Lord Jesus Christ. For you do not believe that "anyone " can exersize "authority" in the Church because there is no "Greek word for authority in the New Testament". Submit and yield to the doctrine of Christ our Lord Nelta.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000

As I have promised Nelta, here is the post that you hace constantly ignore and have yet to even attempt to answer. It refutes completely your false teaching that the elders in the church of the New Testament we nothing more thatn the "old people of the congregation and that there is no Greek word for authority in the New Testament and that therefore the elders do not have ANY authority in the church.

I therefore invite you ONE MORE TIME to read it and either accept it as true or refute it.

Your Brother in Christ

E. Lee Saffold

It is my intention in this post to examine in some detail several passages of scripture that contain words that would help us to reflect accurately concerning some of the things that Nelta would have us to believe about the existence of authority in the scriptures and the authority of elders in the church. I do not now nor will I ever apologize for the Length of this post. If you have ever tried to untangle a group of ropes or twisted wire or electrical cords that have been tied into seemingly impossible knots you know that it takes far less time and effort for a person to entangle and tie the knots than to untangle them.

I will also not apologize if I am accused of being unloving in my efforts to correct her egregious errors that she has sarcastically and arrogantly expressed in this forum. This is being written with love in my heart for the Lord Jesus Christ, His eternal word, and the precious souls that he seeks to save through the gospel, including our sarcastic friend, Nelta.

Now the New Testament is much easier to understand than the almost innumerable volumes that have been written about it. In fact, it seems that the very nature of man is to constantly rationalize the corners and sharp edges off the rugged bare word of God. His intent is to mold and shape it so that it fits into what he perceives to be the perfectly smooth and round hole of his reason, and sense of what is fair, just, right, and workable. Many have thus, as Peter has warned, wrested the scriptures to their own destruction.

Nelta has developed a consistent pattern in this forum of challenging all authority. In much the same fashion that Satan ask our mother, Eve, hath God said? Nelta once asked in this forum, Just how inspired are the scriptures? Then on one occasion she defied the authority of the man over the woman in 1 Corinthians 11:3 by a completely false assertion that the Greek term kaphale does not mean head in the sense of chief but rather means source as origin. The fact that absolutely NO reputable Greek Lexicon so defines the word did not cause her to even question her view. You see, she does not like the fact that the scriptures say that the head of the woman is the man and she considers this view to be completely incompatible with her modern day feminist sense of what is fair and reasonable. She has also demonstrated an extreme prejudice against men through her recent false accusations against Brother Danny and her statements that men usually do not take the writing of women seriously". One with such prejudice against men is not likely to appreciate the fact that God has determined that men would serve as overseers in the church and has excluded women from serving in this post of oversight. She cannot find any way to twist the scriptures in order to allow for women to become elders.

Therefore she has now attempted the next best thing, which is to deny and twist the plain teaching of scripture so as to take away all authority from them so that the women can have an equal voice in leading and directing the church!

This rebellion is much the same as the gainsaying of Korah which Jude accused false teachers in his day of following. For these reasons I now ask you to give attention to this examination of the passages which she has sought to pervert and twist to her own destruction in her clear rebellion against the elders whom the Holy Spirit has made overseers in the church. (Acts 20:28). This rebellion against God will not go unpunished nor will the LIES and false accusations against her Brothers in this forum and her extreme prejudice against men. We have dealt with her false accusations against Brother Danny and her extreme prejudice against men. Therefore we must now deal with her continuing efforts to deceive the weak and ignorant by perverting the word of God with the intent of challenging the authority of those whom the Holy Spirit has made overseers in the Church of Christ.

I will now compare three arguments or statements made by Sister Nelta with expositions of a few of the passages that she claims supports the things she would like for us to believe. First of all, Nelta wants us to believe that her reference to Matthew 20 is proof that no one in the kingdom has any authority over others. Her words were Jesus said in Matt. There would not be people exercising authority over others in His kingdom "as the gentiles do". Second, she also wants us to believe that there are no Greek words in the New Testament for authority. Her words again were, There is no Greek word in the N.T. for *authority.*. Third, based on these two erroneous premises, she draws the outlandish conclusion that we MUST reconcile the words of the inspired writer of Hebrews 13:17 (Whom I believe to be Paul) with HER understanding of the limits that Jesus placed in Matthew 20: 20-28 and Matthew 23:1-12. (Notice that I have taken the time to locate for her the exact passages that she could not remember and would not take the time in her argument to find and thus was unable to give the specific reference. I can only imagine that she was more concerned with brevity than accuracy.) I quote her words again, Heb. 13:17, "Obey them who have the rule over you and be submissive. This must be reconsiled by the limits Jesus placed in Matt. 20 and 23.

With these statements of Sister Nelta in mind let us examine the scriptures that she claims to support her view that 1.) There is no Greek word for authority in the New Testament; 2.) That there would be NO ONE in the kingdom of God to exercise authority over others. 3.) That Hebrews 13:17 must be reconciled with the limits Jesus placed in Matthew 20:20-28.

(Please notice just here that Nelta does not tell us exactly what Jesus placed these so-called limits upon? She knew that we would understand, but she did not want to say, that -according to her view- he placed these limits on AUTHORITY. But she claims that there is no Greek word for AUTHORITY in the New Testament. Which would mean that there is no AUTHORITY to be found in the New Testament. How then could Jesus be found, in the New Testament, placing limits on something that is not even mentioned the New Testament?) We will see, however, that the following passage, which is the one that Nelta referred us to, uses one of several GREEK words for Authority. We shall also see that this non-existent word is used in a context that places absolutely no limits whatsoever on the exercising of Authority in the Kingdom. Rather Jesus presents us with a contrast of the differences between the Kingdoms of this world and the Kingdom of God as seen in the basic reason for which and the manner in which they exercise authority. We shall see that Christ is not here condemning the use of authority. Rather he is forbidding the worldly, selfish, abuse of authority. For little can be accomplished without the exercise of some form of authority among men. All who know anything about leadership know that authority must be exercised. Whether it is the authority that comes from the force of strong character, evidenced in what the military often calls "command presence", which naturally compels others to follow. Or those who lack such character and must resort to the exercise of authority either by brute force or lies and deception to make others reluctantly follow them. Regardless of how it is exercised it is impossible to have any cooperative endeavor without it. Our Lord made it clear that authority would be exercised in the same way and for the same reasons that He exercised it. Read the passage below for yourself.

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping [him], and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father. And when the ten heard [it], they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20: 20-28).

Notice that Jesus did not say that there would not be any chief among us without authority. He simply showed that those who would be chief would not have others serving them but rather would become Chief or ascends to such a position of authority in the process of and in order to be of service to others. He gave himself as the example saying,  Even as (meaning in the same way) the son of man came not to be minister unto but to minister, and give his life a ransom for many If he meant that there would be no one with authority over others in His Kingdom then He would not be a good example because we are told that Jesus spoke as one having authority and not as the scribes. Jesus also made it clear, all authority hath been given to me in heaven and on earth Matthew 28:19, 20. In fact he gave the apostles authority and set them on thrones judging the tribes of Israel. He had authority and he exercised it but the difference is that he exercised it through persuasion and for the purpose of serving our great need of eternal salvation. He did not come as a worldly King would come and gather servants to carry him about, cook his food, wash his feet and tend to his every need and mindlessly, and reluctantly obey him. He was a king, using his authority as the Son of God to redeem us from our sins and his love compels us to obey Him and his words persuades us to submit to him. He is referred to as the Chief Shepherd and the lesser shepherds under him are to exercise authority in the same manner and for the same purpose under the guidance of the chief shepherd in service of those souls He died to save. The authority of the lesser shepherds resides not within themselves but rather in the Chief Shepherd. He directs His subjects through the Apostles doctrine in the New Testament and the Elders are to teach us the apostles doctrine and lead us to follow that teaching in our worship and work.

Notice also that Jesus, in these passages, uses a Greek word for authority which our sister Nelta would have us to believe does not even exist. But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. The Greek word that Jesus uses here is the term katexousiazo which is defined as to exercise authority, wield power. It is derived from The Greek term exousiazo which means, To have power or authority, use power. 1.) To be master of any one, exercise authority over one; to be master of the body; to have full and entire authority over the body; to hold the body subject to one's will; to be brought under the power of anyone.

This word exousiazo is derived from the Greek word exousia meaning: power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases; 1.) Leave or permission; 2) physical and mental power; the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises; 3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege); 4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed); 4) universally; authority over mankind; specifically; the power of judicial decisions; of authority to manage domestic affairs; metonymically; a thing subject to authority or rule; jurisdiction; one who possesses authority; a ruler, a human magistrate; the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates; a sign of the husband's authority over his wife; the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself; the sign of regal authority, a crown.

Therefore we can readily see that Neltas contention that there is no Greek word for Authority in the New Testament is proven to be a complete fabrication. If she had only read the passage that she quoted she would have seen the word authority there. And if she was competent enough in the Greek language she could have looked up the Greek word. If she had read several translations she could have learned that it is translated in all reputable translations with the English word authority if she had studied before she wrote she would not have mistakenly told us that there is NO GREEK WORD FOR AUTHORITY in the New Testament! But then she would have to abandon the idea that there is no one in the Kingdom of God that exercises authority over others.

If she had taken the time to follow the use of this Greek term exousia she would have found that the apostles not only possessed but they also exercised authority. Read the following passage from 2 Corinthians 10:5-12.

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.

For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed: That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters. For [his] letters, say they, [are] weighty and powerful; but [his] bodily presence [is] weak, and [his] speech contemptible. Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such [will we be] also in deed when we are present. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you. ( 2 Corinthians 10:5-13).

Here Paul said that he should boast somewhat more about our authority which he says,  the Lord hath given to us for EDIFICATION, and not for YOUR DESTRUCTION. You see the authority was there for a different purpose than its purpose among the worldly kingdoms and Paul exercised it in such a way that he was in danger of not boasting enough about it. Which shows that Christ meant for CERTAIN ONES in the Church to have authority for the edification and service of others and that it is to be exercised through persuasion until discipline, as a last resort, is necessary for the edification and protection of the body. Be all of this as it may, no one can doubt that Paul and the other apostles had authority in the church. The word that he uses here for authority is exousia which is the same word that Jesus used in Matthew 20:20-28.

So Neltas contention that Jesus taught that no one in the kingdom would have authority over others is clearly false. Paul had authority and he claimed that the Lord had given it to him. Now why would the Lord give authority to anyone in the kingdom if he intended to teach in Matthew 20:20-28 that no one would have authority over others in the kingdom as Nelta wants us to believe.

With this information from 2 Corinthians still fresh in our minds it would be wise for us to look at a record that we have in the book of Acts. It is an account that gives us a picture of the Apostles and the ELDERS of the church in Jerusalem actually exercising their authority in the church. We can see that their authority was recognized and that they exercised it in accordance with the principles of Christ in Matthew 20:20-28. That is, they exercised it under the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the purpose serving the church and in a manner that used their recognized authority through the wisdom of persuasion. We see them appealing to the scriptures and the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit that confirmed the words of Paul and Barnabus so that the facts in this matter could be accurately established in the presence of the whole church. They then made a decision; it was expressed by James, written in a letter and sent to the church in Antioch and was the duty of the church to obey.

There is much to cover in this passage but I site it to show that it is impossible for anyone to read this and draw the conclusion that the elders do not have any authority. Certainly no reasonable person could read this passage and conclude that no one could exercise authority over others in the kingdom. I commend it to your reading without further comment.

And certain men which came down from Judea taught the brethren, [and said], except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and [of] the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men [and] brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as [he did] unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; [namely], Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: And they wrote [letters] by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren [send] greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no [such] commandment: It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: [Which] when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed [them]. And after they had tarried [there] a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. Acts 15:1-34

Now let us consider another passage wherein we see authority being used in the New Testament. Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have [free] course, and be glorified, even as [it is] with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep [you] from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing. And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.

Here we have the Apostle Paul alluding to his AUTHORITY which he received from the Lord in his expression of confidence that these brethren would do as he had commanded them. Notice his words, And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. One without authority does not command anyone nor does he have even the slightest reason to believe that anyone would obey his command should he issue one. In this verse Paul is doing both! I can just hear those who teach no one in the kingdom would exercise authority over others saying Paul does not have any authority to give commands. He may call us all in and we can have a congregational dialog and then vote on the matter but he has no such right. However, if they did such a thing and the vote was cast requiring a brother to be withdrawn from then each individual would have to submit to the authority being exercised by the entire congregation. This would be the entire church doing in concert the very thing that Nelta wants us to believe no one would do in the kingdom. This would be the entire church exercising authority over others in the kingdom! The truth must be obvious by now that it is impossible to escape authority. It is naturally inherent in any cooperative action whether it comes in the form of strong, wise individuals in positions of authority or the entire body combined as an individual in the same position, authority will be exercised! Our Lord simply changed the purpose and the manner in which it would be exercised in the kingdom but he surely did not prohibit or eliminate its existence! God is not the author of confusion. (1Cor.14: 33). The church is a BODY and it has a head that controls its actions throughout.  And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the Church. (Col. 1:18) He exercises His divine authority through the Holy Spirit who exercises it through the Apostles who continue to this day to exercise it through the word of God which is the very word that has taught us to submit to the elders (Heb. 13:17) who exercise the very authority of Christ when they lead us to continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrine which is in fact the very doctrine of Christ our Lord! Therefore, those who rebel against men who are qualified according to 1 Timothy 3: 1-7 and Titus 1:5-11 to be overseers in the church are actually in rebellion against our Lord Jesus Christ! That, brethren, is the truth and a warning! God will not fail to punish severely those who rebel against His anointed! Just witness what happen to those who rebelled against Moses and Aaron. Look at what happened to Ananias and Saphira who in the act of lying to the apostles were found, in fact, to have been lying instead to the Holy Spirit. They both fell DEAD at the apostles feet. (Acts 5: 1-4). Beware of this rebellious spirit! Beware!

Now I must stop here though there is much more to discuss about this subject. I only want to remind you that Nelta was right about one thing. She said, Enough is enough. I agree. We have seen enough of this rebellion against the God given authority of the overseers of the church. We have seen enough of accusations without evidence to sustain them. We have seen enough of this extreme feminist prejudice against men just because of their gender. We have seen enough of this shallow sophistry that affirms that the word of God teaches something without any evidence from the word of God that such is true. We have seen enough of this refusal to engage in meaningful dialog with those who would sincerely desire to question our comments. For are we not told to,  be ready ALWAYS to give an answer to ANY man that asketh thee a REASON for the hope that is in us?

Let us study diligently, discuss matters sincerely, and let the Word of God be our ONLY rule of faith and practice. Let us endeavor to approach these subjects with a desire to be lead by the Holy Spirit through the teaching of the word of God. These matters are high and holy in that we are talking about GODS WILL. This is not the same as discussing politics or matters of opinion. We are discussing matters of faith. Let us ever contend for the ONE faith that we have from the ONE God that is intended to make us ONE people in Christ our LORD. Yes, Nelta, Enough false doctrine, enough false accusations, and enough feminist SEXISM that condemns a persons views and attitudes solely on the basis of the fact that he is a man! Enough!

I pray that we can learn the truth and express it in this forum so that others are not confused by those who do are not even sure that the scriptures are inspired.

-- Anonymous, February 09, 2000