Ok, a strange subject I admit, but how does Iconoclasm fit in today? Does it have any bearing on western churches? Does anybody discuss Theology anymore or just modern trends? How many of you have the faintest idea what i'm talking about?

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

Answers

Iconoclast: person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional, institutions, etc.

Do you mean like the (IMO) unscriptural Rapture?

(Phil 3:11 KJV) "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

Is it resurrection or rapture?

What else do you mean? Got a more direct question?

Most Christians like to talk about social things, or whatever they do...(Luke 18:12 KJV) "I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

Mark how do you fit the rapture into icons? I do not mean to be negative, but I often have no clue to where you go sometimes. By the way I do believe in the principle of the "rapture" .

Jeremiah, iconism is a big part of R. Catholism, but should have no place of the Christian. In fact, God said not to make any idols- which are just about the same.

-- Anonymous, February 03, 2000

"Mark how do you fit the rapture into icons?"

-- AKelley (wwjdkelley@hotmail.com), February 03, 2000.

If a Christian holds onto something that is not true and refuses to give it up then he has set up an idol. IMO the rapture theory is that. A theory with no basis in fact. Resurrection yes. A secret rapture where all Christians are popped out of trains, planes and automobils is not what the Bible teaches us. Acts 23:6 "of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question."

(1 Cor 15:51 KJV) "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

(1 Cor 15:52 KJV) "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

(Phil 3:14 KJV) "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

I was raised a Catholic and quit when I was thirteen. Although I didn't know much about Christianity I did figure out that going to Mass on Sunday and Confession on Saturday was a useless waste of time. I told my dad I would rather go pray sitting under an oak tree.

I gave up the idol and will do so if and when I discover others. Christians should be pressing "toward the mark", this necessitates searching out and exposing false doctrine.

The following is Jesus showing us what an idol can be, even though it is taken out of the Scripture it was turned into idol worship...(Mark 2:27 KJV) "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

(Mark 2:28 KJV) "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath."

Jesus is Lord of the Rest. God instituted that we rest one day out of the week. Not to do some Holy thing, like going to church, (not saying anything against going to church) but simply to take a break. The Rest was made for you and I, not because God needed anything.

(Rom 14:5 KJV) "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

The Rest can be on any day of the week. For example, some people need to be at the old folks home on Sunday in order to care for the patients, they can take another day off to REST. Personaly I take Sunday off like most others in this country. I thank God for the Rest, my body needs it and my arm needs it, and I use it to relax, study, talk, enjoy Gods creation, etc.

Take care and reach for the prize.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Well, the original argument over religious icons was pretty complicated, but, basically, Constantine V said that iconodules (slaves to icons) were misusing icons (heresy). "An image of christ must show him as either both god and man confused,implying monophysitism, or as a man distinct from god implying nestorianism."

Now, John of Damascus defended icons saying that they allowed poor illiterate peasants to be able to worship Christ through the icons. He added also that whatever was done to an Icon was done to the person it represented. Now, john's first argument is from the practial, the second seems doctrinal, and I don't know how to support ordisprove that.

Warren Treadgold (historian) had this to say about the whole conflict: "By denying pictoral representations of christ and his siants a place in chrisitan worship, Iconoclast doctrine tended to assign god and the saints a restricted role in the world. moreover, especially because the iconoclast emperors made conspicuous use of portraits ofthemselves, Iconoclasm gave emperors wider authority than bishops who represented christ, or monks, who imitated Christ and aspired to be saints." (388)

Funny, it seems most people on this forum are pro-Iconoclasm?

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Jeremiah, this is an iteresting thread, one that is worthy of much thought and study. I agree that many tend to worship idols- in fact I saw a clip on TV about Lady of Guadalope ( Maryology). In fact, in Mexico and part of the US, Mary is the chosen icon. You will not see pictures of Jesus but rather pictures of Mary. But, of course how did Mary or Jesus look like. Much of icons are people trying to put a face or an image on their faith. I do not agree with icons, but I understand why they do this.

Mark, again, you go off on another topic that has no bearing on this thread. I would say that I disagree with your statment, and I can prove the concept of the rapture even thought the word itself is not in the scripture. But, just because someone believes in the "rapture" does not place them in idolatry. Please stick to the thread topic. I can disprove you from the scriptures on this topic as easily as you can quote them. But, this is not the place.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

AKelley,

An icon is an icon. Form one in your mind, form one out of Scripture, or out of wood, stone, mud, paint, photo, dollars, they are all the same and lead to confusion.

Have you ever seen a person pray to an icon. It is mind numbing to see it. Thousands of people go to the church I went to when a child and I still am amazed that a believer in Jesus Christ would pray to a stone.

Christ still hanging on a cross even though they claim to believe he has risen?

If you can't tell you are worshipping false doctrines then I guess there is little to do but pray about it. The Rapture theory is false doctrine Resurrection is True Doctrine. Rapture Theorists worship a false doctrine, that is my point and call me an...Iconoclast: person who attacks cherished beliefs, traditional, institutions, etc. Jesus was an Iconoclast wouldn't you say?

(Rev 3:18 KJV) "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and ANOINT THINE EYES WITH EYESALVE, THAT THOU MAYEST SEE."

(Rev 3:19 KJV) "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Take care!

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Mark, believe as you wish. We do not see eye to ey on this issue. I believe that there is grounds for a rapture- but I do not worship it. You do not. You believe passionately as do I. Leave it at that.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000

Icono-what? Hieria who? No speaking in tongues without translations! Dem's da rules!

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2000

I just don't understand THAT at ALL. What is your job, that your arm needs a day off? (not being smart-alecky, but truly curious.)

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2000

Iconoclasm was a movement that said we should break or destroy all icons or representations of Jesus or Mary or the saints. However it is based on false presuppositions.

First of all, those who have statues or pictures do not "worship" them, so do not ascribe to them an action that they are not actually doing. Just because you see people praying in front of them does not mean they are worshiping them. When I see someone praying in front of a blank wall, I do not assume that the person is worshiping the blank wall. When I see someone praying while looking at a bible, should I assume that he is worshiping the bible?

Secondly, if God forbade people to make graven images of anything why did he command Moses to make cherubim (angels) Exodus 25:18-19, the bronze serpent for people to look at and be healed Numbers 21:8-9 and the engraved forms in the temple 1 Kgs. 6:23-29 and 7:25-45. God forbade people to worship images as though they are the true God.

If we should not have images or pictures of anyone then you should throw out the pictures of your family on the wall and the pictures of your kids from your wallets. You should also tear down the statues of famous people from city squares and the Congress. Pictures and statues are there to remind us of the person that they represent. When you pray before a statue of Jesus, you are praying to Jesus himself, not to the statue. A statue is only made of wood or plaster, so how could it possibly hear or answer prayers? Iconoclasm was condemned by the Universal Church at the Second council of Nicea in the year 787 and this decision was accepted by all Christians worldwide.

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2000

my point exactly. I knew about the council of nicea... The question is, if Iconoclasm has been condemned,why do we find underpinnings of it here? you'd be surprised what people consider to be idolatry these days.... so,isa conflict 1200 years old have relevance today?

-- Anonymous, February 05, 2000

As a Catholic I think I should point out that we do not Worship Statues as you claim. When I pray at the foot of a statue of Jesus I know that statue is only stone but it reminds me of the REAL Jesus that lives in all things.( Do you worship pictures of your grandmother?) When we pray to Mary or any of the Saints or to our forefathers we are not praying in the sence of WORSHIP but we are asking for intercession. We believe that Mary and the saints in heaven are not cut off from us but are instead alive and thru the power of Christ can hear our calls and intercede to God on our behalf. You need to expand your understanding on types of prayer and Worship. In saying all that we do however beleive that Jesus Christ is in the Eucharist ... We take a literal interpretation when Jesus told the Apostles "This is my body..... This is my blood...". So in the Eucharist we do Worship our Lord and Savior and our God because that is what Jesus the Lamb of God told us to do in remembrance of him.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

To Sam: I said what I said because the huge words that were being dropped were truly greek to me, and I wanted someone to fill me in on a little background, some definitions. "Interpreting the tongues" was a humorous way of expressing that. Some of us who participate in these threads are not PhD's.

To my Catholic friends: I appreciate the history lesson. And now I have "the faintest idea" what you are talking about. (Although I don't particularly agree ...)

God bless,

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

David ... or anyone else for that matter:

When we pray to Mary or any of the Saints or to our forefathers we are not praying in the sence of WORSHIP but we are asking for intercession. We believe that Mary and the saints in heaven are not cut off from us but are instead alive and thru the power of Christ can hear our calls and intercede to God on our behalf.

Can you show me from Scripture where we are to pray to God through anyone other than Jesus Christ? If this belief is not supportable through the Scriptures, how is it supported?

Also, I have always believed that all Christians are saints. Again, are there any Scriptures that can support certain people being set aside as saints, over and above the general Christian population?

Not trying to start anything here, but maybe you can help me understand those beliefs somewhat better than I presently do.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

It is absolutely correct that Jesus is the only mediator between us and God the Father. Catholics would assert that as well. However, is it possible to have a mediator between us and Jesus, to ask others to pray for us? That's all Catholics do when they "pray to" the saints, they are asking them to intercede for them to Jesus who is God. The word pray originally meant "to ask."

Moreover, there are also Scripture passages that refer to intercessory prayer being asked of the saints: Rom 15:30, join me by your prayers to God on my behalf, Eph. 4:3 pray for us, 2 Th 1:11, we always pray for you, Eph 6:18, make supplication for all the saints and for me, Rev. 5:8 the angel offers the prayer of the saints to God Rev 6:9 the souls of those who had been killed for their faith are asking the Lamb to avenge their blood.

The term saint comes from the Latin sanctus, meaning "holy one." Anyone who is joined to Christ on earth and is a member of his body, the Church (Eph 1:22-23) can be called a holy one or a saint. This union to Christ does not end when someone dies, rather that person continues to be a member of the Body of Christ and is still able to intercede for us, even more so because of a more direct relationship to God.

Scripture passages that refer to the souls of those who have died as still existing and capable of prayer: Mk 12:26-27 He is a God of the living, not of the dead, Mk 9:4 Jesus seen conversing with Elijah and Moses, Heb 12:1 We are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, Lk 16:19- 30 departed rich man intercedes for his brothers

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000

You said, As a Catholic I think I should point out that we do not Worship Statues as you claim.

As a former Catholic and Sicilian gang leader I can tell you that we worshiped the statues. And anyone that was in our parish did the same. Our way of life was outside the law and yet the priest knew what we did. He knew how we made a living, but he loved the money my family put in the coffers.

You say the Catholic organization doesnt worship statues. We did! The cry of the priest was Pray to Saint Christopher, pray to Mary or light a candle. As a Catholic I was ignorant of God's word. I allowed myself to be led around by "the nose", all the while the "Father" was telling us that we were too ignorant to understand God's word and the "church" must do the interpreting.

David, you might be able to fool the others, but I have been there. Your statement, Do you worship pictures of your grandmother, was not a good point. No, we dont worship the pictures of our grandmothers, but neither do we pray to them. The Bible tells us who to pray to and Ill give you a clue, its not Mary or one of the saints.

You said, We believe that Mary and the saints in heaven are not cut off from us but are instead alive and thru the power of Christ can hear our calls and intercede to God on our behalf. David where is the Scripture to back your last statement? Its not there. Jesus is the ONLY Mediator between God and man. Look at 1 Timothy 2:5 and there are many others.

You said, We do however believe that Jesus Christ is in the Eucharist ... We take a literal interpretation when Jesus told the Apostles "This is my body..... This is my blood...".

Jesus also said He was the door. But was He a literal door? And if you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, then why doesnt the Catholic organization Immerse? That is what the Greek word means.

Listen, I have been where you are at. And I pray that you will do what I did. Read the Bible. It is amazing how much the Catholic organization believes that is foreign to the Word of God. Ill pray for you, but when I do, Ill pray to the Father in the only name that can save, Jesus Christ.

-- Anonymous, February 07, 2000