As noted in photo.net some new products from Nikon. The AF module and display of the F80 seem promising. Its synch speed does not :-(

http://www.klt.co.jp/Nikon/Press_Release/index.html

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), January 27, 2000

Answers

Well, they got it almost right this time. It's basically an N/F8008 with better autofocus and something other than the Death Star interface on the N70.

Excellent things: grid screen on command, DOF preview, and if I'm not mistaken, standard screw-in cable release.

Suspicious but not necessarily bad things: "viewfinder image dims when batteries are not installed" (?!).

Things that suck: IR film advance detection (am I the only person who shoots EIR?), 1/125 synch speed (Nikon still makes an all-mechanical shutter that synchs at 1/250), no MLU of any kind.

And no MLU will return to Nikon's amateur bodies very soon, it seems. That new "VR" lens must have been delayed until this camera could debut, because this lens's main (and I assume expensive) feature works only with the four newest Nikon bodies -- the F5, F100, F80, and D1.

I'm about as happy as I expected with these moves by Nikon, I guess. The F80 camera isn't going to suddenly become the camera I need -- I'll need an FM2N first -- but as long as the price isn't exorbidant I'll be happy enough to get one eventually.

Suggestions for new VR lenses, to get the ball rolling here: the macro lenses would be handiest, followed by a fast prime -- 50/1.4 & 1/15 second, anyone? I'd be in clover... I'd need 150' of Tech Pan and a bulk loader in a hurry!

-- John O'Connell (joconnell@adelphia.net), January 27, 2000.

When I first brought my N70, my only wish is it could have a DOF so I can use my ND filter. When I first got my F100, my only wish is that it could have a built-in flash so I don't need to carry an extra flash. Now the dream comes true.

Great to see the 80-400 VR too. I guess my wallet sinks. Hope the Canon can come up more innovations to keep the Nikon humble and remain competitive in prices.

Eric.

-- Eric Chi (echi@cisco.com), January 27, 2000.

Anyone know how the Nikon VR system works? They seem to have a mode which stabilizes the image on film, but not in the viewfinder (to save power). This isn't an option on the Canon system.

The only way I can think of is that the VR only kicks in when the shutter is fully depressed, but I'd have though that would introduce a substantial lag time while the VR system kicks in.

-- Bob Atkins (bobatkins@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

According to the Nikon promotional info, something called moderate VR kicks in when only film plan VR is used. Sounds like the VR system is allowed to operate but no allowed to fully eliminate the vibration. Sort of get things calculated and put in a bit of VR but wait for the shutter to be depressed before fully reducing the vibrations. I assume that when the shutter is depressed full VR kicks in with a lag of some sort as the VR system finishes the job it started. Again, I assume that a photographer would use full VR for a moving subject or when timing the shutter is critical in order to minimize any lag time. For static subjects that can be shot at anytime, the moderate VR could be used. This is all speculation on my part.

-- Stanley McManus (stanshooter@yahoo.com), January 27, 2000.

Thing that sucks: No metering at all with non-CPU (Manual Focus) lenses!

-- Walter Newton (waltern@spectralogic.com), January 27, 2000.

the 80-400 VR lens only uses the TC14A which means no electrical connection, so i imagine the VR doesn't work as well? Also i don't think it is a silent wave motor. Basically means I need a third 1.4x TC.........

-- Scott Fairbairn (sfairbai@netcom.ca), January 27, 2000.

I think the new lens is interesting because while it doesn't seem to be an AF-S, it allows for simultaneous AF/MF. Perhaps this is going to be the new wave of Nikon's second tier autofocus lenses?

-- Matthew Smith (mpsmith@email.unc.edu), January 27, 2000.

I think this new lens is interesting because it hints at what is to come from Nikon. While this particular lens will probably not see the inside of my camera bag, it does indicate that Nikon is getting on the bandwagon finally. More VR lenses to come? Well I'd imagine. As far as the full time manual focusing in AF mode, from the picture I would guess not (despite the wording in the PDF); it has the standard M-A switch like the current non AF-S lenses. The reduced body compatibility is a drawback though and the 'no metering' on the F80 with manual lenses is a big mistake. Luckily you can have most lenses converted fairly cheaply or use your current body. As far as no AF with converters, some might see it as a negative but IMO I can't see putting any converter on a 5X zoom, let alone a f/5.6 lens.

-- Rob Landry (rob_landry@hotmail.com), January 27, 2000.

No metering with AIS lenses: aaarrggg! So now all of us who prefer our metal barrel & smooth helical lenses will have to have them chipped if Nikon continues to go this way. And good luck getting your 6mm/2.8 or 13/5.6 or 800/5.6 chipped.

Nikon already lost one sale to me this way with the N60 (crappy camera, but if it could have metered with all of my lenses, I'd have bought one for my sister). May the FM2N & F3 outlive the F80!

-- John O'Connell (joconnell@adelphia.net), January 27, 2000.

Matthew, I don't think the lens will allow for simultaneous AF/MF. The pictures seem to show an AF/MF ring on the lens, similar to the non-AFS 80-200/2.8, 20-35 and other similar lenses.

As for metering with a 6/2.8 or 13/5.6, I don't think many people will be worried about this.

-- Paul Wilson (pauldwilson@mediaone.net), January 28, 2000.

Hmmm . . . do I understand this correctly? Nikon has introduced a new body that will not allow ANY metering whatsoever with my 800mm f5.6 IF-ED Nikkor? Or any of my other old MF Nikkors? Hard to be too enthusiastic. Even, my EOS-3 meters just fine in manual mode on the old Nikkors when used with an adapter. I don't quite understand precisely how the meter becomes totally inoperative when an MF lens is mounted.

-- Terry Danks (danksta@ns.sympatico.ca), January 28, 2000.

Terry, the body doesn't have the metering "tab" requied to know what aperture has been set on the lens. So if the lens doesn't have a CPU to convey this info electronically, you're SOL.

Theoretically "stop-down" metering should be possible, I guess only Nikon knows why they got rid of that feature as well. My guess is they didn't want to kill F100 sales.

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), January 28, 2000.

I noticed that on the Nikon Japan press release the camera is designated as the F80 while on the Nikon USA page it is listed as the N80.

-- David Cunningham (dcunningham@ibm.net), January 28, 2000.

Terry, I wouldn't worry about not being able to meter with the F80/N80 with MF Nikkors. I guess Nikon must feel that few F80 customers are gonna have a stable of older MF Nikkors. Maybe their wrong, but I'm certainly not buying an F80, so I guess it doesn't affect me. On the other hand, my MF 600mm f/4 now has the metering CPU installed so I wouldn't have to worry even if I did buy the F80 because I would get full functionality. The thing to remember is that Nikon has probably made a decision to lessen support for their MF lenses on anything but their top tier cameras (cutting costs) and of course the still-in-production FM2N and F3 cameras. So essentially, you may not get full MF lens support on all bodies; I think we still have enough bodies to choose from.

-- Rob Landry (rob_landry@hotmail.com), January 28, 2000.

I'd guess the omission of MF lenses support is more to differentiate expensive and very expensive Nikon camera bodies.

Eric.

-- Eric Chi (echi@cisco.com), January 28, 2000.

I'm not real happy with Nikon's decision not to include AI (non CPU) metering with the N80. However, I've decided that it probably is not that big of an issue for the following reasons:

If I decide that I want an AF body I'm not too likely to get rid of my F3 and FA.
My MF lenses couldn't take advantage of all the neat new features of the N80. The AI metering isn't free so removing it will save money and reduce maintenance (one less part to fail).
There are more than 10 years worth of used AF lenses on the market (so you're not stuck with new lenses).
Many users with AF cameras don't own any manual focus lenses (I bet most just have the cheap AF zoom that came with the camera).

Now if Nikon decides to discontinue (and not provide replacements for) the F3 and FM2n, I will get mad.

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), January 28, 2000.

If the N80 does not meter with manual focus lenses, what happens with AF lenses that are used with non-AF teleconverters or with extension tubes. If these are unusable with the N80, the camera will be of no use to anyone but the rankest amateur.

-- David S. Cox (dscox@gwi.net), January 28, 2000.

Where did the information on incompatibility with AIS lens came from? Nikon's brouchure indicates N80 has combined AI and CPU meter coupling, same as F100, F5 and N90s.

-- chuck fan (chaohui@msn.com), January 29, 2000.

Chuck: the press-release http://www.kl t.co.jp/Nikon/Press_Release/f80.html say the meter doesn't work with non-CPU lenses. The lenses can be used, but only in manual.

-- Alan Gibson (Alan.Gibson@technologist.com), January 30, 2000.

Please note that the weight of the F80 is just 515g(!), which is much lighter than F70 and even the cheap model like F60/F50/F401x. Is it prism-free or all plastic like some EOS models? I also concern about the country of assembly. Some people say that the quality of Tailand F601 is lower than that of the original Japan made F601(really?).

-- Dennis Tsang (dkmtsang@yahoo.com), January 31, 2000.

Regarding the viewfinder/prism, details seem to be tough to come by. From the Nikon GmbH (Germany http://www.nikon.de) I found the following in a PDF file about the F80: Sucher: Feststehendes Dachkantprisma mit Dioptrieneinstellung (-1,8 bis +0,8 dpt)

Which roughly translates to: Viewfinder: Fixed [roof]prism with diopter adjustment from -1.8 to +0.8.

My German isn't good enough to get a good translation of Dachkantprisma. I know that Dach is roof and Prisma is prism. but the kant has me pretty much baffled.

I looked up the .PDF file for the F100 and found this: Sucher: Feststehender Dachkant-Prismensucher mit Dioptrieneinstellung (-3 bis +1 dpt). They changed how they compounded the words (there's just something about the German languange and compound words), but it seems to be more or less the same.

According to the specs listed, the F80 has an eyepoint of 17mm, a coverage of 92% and a magnification of 0.71x to 0.75x with a 50mm lens at infinity.

If there are any native German speakers who can explain the difference between "Dachkantprisma" and "Dachkant-Prismensucher" and if either of these words really say that it is (or isn't) a real glass prism in there I'd love to hear from them. BTW, the .PDF file can be found at: http://nikon.de/assets/pdf/F 80.pdf.

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), January 31, 2000.

A Dachkantprisma is a pentaprism. A Dachkanprismensucher is a pentaprism finder. Given this, I don't think there's enough information to know if there's a real glass prism in there.

-- Pete Dickson (dickson.pn@pg.com), January 31, 2000.

Bob, there's some info on a VR patent that Nikon has at http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/details?&pn=US05926656__&s_all=1.

Hope this helps.... Jeff

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), February 01, 2000.

I find this discussion rather amusing:

Before Nikon made the F90/N90 serie, everybody was complaining about AF and said that Nikon isn't modern enough. Now, they got AF-S lenses, VR lenses, a new midrange multizone AF body and everybody complain that Nikon is too modern!

I guess you cannot please everyone. :-)

lp

-- Louis-Philippe Masse (phisa@generation.net), February 02, 2000.

And all this whinning about the N80 not being a pro body...how many pro biodies does Nikon need? What they needed was a lighter, fully-loaded, fast AFing, easy to operate competitor for all those Canon bodies who've been eating their lunch - sales-wise - for the past 6-7 years! It's easier to use than the N70 and more complete out of the box than the N90s. WHAT'S THE PROBLEM??

-- BART (GBA-OPUS@HOME.COM), February 06, 2000.

"a faster focusing N801s" someone said. Sounds good to me! And better equipped than the N90s. Too light? For who? Sounds like a Canon (lighter) body capable of handling Nikon lenses; pnly faster. How bad can that be? The heavy ones (F5,F4,F3,F100) will still be there for those of you who need your heavy-iron to go along with that 80-200 f/2.8 handful. MF lenses? I'm keeping my 801s for that.

-- Bart (gba-opus@home.com), February 07, 2000.

The problem here is that Nikon always gives it's users something to complain about with new bodies.

I have an F100(among other Nikons), it's great but I really could have used MLU. I would have been happy with a 2 second pre-fire. I guess I have to buy an F5(sarcasm). The N80 seems great for my wife and for when I want a really light body. For this I could deal with no MLU but I have some AIS lenses and would like some kind of metering. Sure, I could have Rolland Elliot add a chip to the lenses but one is a Sigma 14 so no dice there.

I use Nikon and can't see myself changing so it would be nice if Nikon showed it's customers the same respect and stopped making cheesy feature decisions. Canon seems to always include all of these features. All Nikon had to do was spend the extra money (what could it have cost? $10?) on the N80 to include metering with non-AF lenses and nobody would have complained. Hell, Canon EOS bodies will meter with AIS Nikon lenses when mounted with an adapter.

-- Paul Wilson (pauldwilson@mediaone.net), February 15, 2000.

It seems Nikon users have to wait another 2 years until all the missing features (synch. 1/250s, metering with AIS...) are corrected in a F80x.

-- Ivan Verschoote (ivan.verschoote@rug.ac.be), February 16, 2000.

I tend to look at things the other way around, Paul. It is not that Nikon always gives people something to complain about. Rather, regardless of what Nikon does, people will always have something to complain about. As a serious amateur, I have never had any interest in the N70, and most likely I'll never buy an F80/N80. For those who want a faster sync speed, more compatibility, etc., there is the F100. And if you want even more features and durability, there is the F5. Of course, the complaint is that the F5 and the F100 are too expensive.

To me, it makes a lot of sense that Nikon gradually phases out the compatibility with very old accessories to save some cost. For a body that costs a few hundred dollars, even a $10 cost saving means a pretty important competitive advantage. There is also the need to differenate the F80 from the F100 as well as the F100 from the F5 so that they won't compete against one another too much within the family. For example, if you add MLU to the F100, at least functionally, it would have been awfully similar to the F5. From Nikon's point of view, it is probably better to sell a few more F5's than a few more F100's. From a photographer's point of view, it would have been nice if the F5 costs $500 new. :-)

-- Shun Cheung (shun@worldnet.att.net), February 16, 2000.

Now that hurts. Canon EOS can do stop-down metering with Nikon AI-S lenses. But 2 of the 4 Nikon AF cameras can't.

-- chuck (chaohui@msn.com), February 16, 2000.

Here's a new webpage on the F80: http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/comp anies/nikon/htmls/models/specroomy2k/f80/index.htm.

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), March 04, 2000.

Some more info from Nikon Corporation (Japan) can be found at: http://www.klt.c o.jp/Nikon/35mm/f80/index.html.

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), March 17, 2000.

Why, oh, why, is a useful and cheap vertical shutter release button not included in the bettery pack for the N80? Nikon seems to have made a policy of omitting very simple and cheap features that could not possibly make a significant impact on the overall cost of the product. Do they really think its a good idea to systematically design useful features out of lower tier cameras? Does Nikon not think the buyers of N80 to be good enough to warrant their best efforts? Canon doesn't seem to hold that view about their lower end customers.

Sorry, I need to rent. The N80 looked so good otherwise, and I use vertical release extensively.

-- Chuck (chaohui@msn.com), March 17, 2000.

>Nikon seems to have made a policy of omitting very simple and >cheap features that could not possibly make a significant impact on >the overall cost of the product.

That tells me that you've never worked in the consumer electronics industry. Over a large production run the _tiniest_ cost savings are pursued and the specs are always gone over with a fine-tooth comb with manufacturing cost in mind because per-unit costs multiply with the popularity of your product.

An extra shutter button or getting rid of stop-down metering are _exactly_ the kinds of things that can make a difference between a product being financially viable and not -- and while Canon does include certain features Nikon does not, they're giving something up in order to do so. Maybe Canon is giving up profit per-unit for the higher volume of a bigger feature set, I don't know. However, these decisions are ALWAYS made with manufacturing costs firmly in mind, at every company.

-- Mark Wilkins (mark_wilkins@yahoo.com), March 24, 2000.

Hi Geoffrey, I don't know where my posting went to, so just again. Don't worry about the "kant". It means just the angle of the prism, without saying a number. It is a technical word. The word came from the design of those prisms. They look like the roof of a house. Feststehender Dachkant-Prismensucher and the way they explained the F 80 view finder means just the same, but less "technical".

I'm pretty surprised about the metering thing with the F80. A few weeks ago, I answered a question of a guy at Euro-Photo.net and told him that the f80 is a good camera for his use. I may have to update myself. The German Nikon side doesn't say anything about it. The Nikon News No. 1/2000 (Nikon Flash) says following to this: Compatible with all Nikkor lenses. (Translated) I try to believe, that Nikon is able to use the German langguage in a right way, then this means: Compatible with all AI and AI-S Nikkors, with all AF lenses (I don't believe that, I'm sure they forgot the F 3 AF lenses), with all Non- AI lenses (I don't believe that too) and not compatible with Serie E lenses! There is a saying in Germany: The German langguage is not easy to learn. Hmmh. May be there is one around who got the Nikon News in English. I like to know, what Nikon wrote. Many greetings, Ralf.

-- Ralf Grambrock (101.51955@germanynet.de), April 09, 2000.

Ralf, that .pdf file I quoted earlier (http://nikon.de/assets/pdf/F 80.pdf) also says this on page two:

Objektivanschluss: Nikon F-Bajonett (mit AF-Kupplung und AF-Kontakten)
Geeignete Objektive: AF-D-Nikkore (au_er IX-Nikkoren): AF und sdmtliche Funktionen nutzbar; PC Micro-Nikkor 85 mm/2.8D: AF und sdmtliche Funktionen, jedoch nur mit manuellem Belichtungsabgleich nutzbar; AF-Nikkore ohne D-Charakteristik (au_er AF-Nikkoren f|r F3AF): sdmtliche Funktionen au_er 3D-Matrixmessung nutzbar; I-P-Nikkore: sdmtliche Funktionen au_er 3D-Matrixmessung und Autofokus nutzbar; IX-Nikkore: ungeeignet; Objektive ohne CPU: mit manuellem Belichtungsabgleich einsetzbar (Belichtungsmessung nicht mvglich); bis zu grv_ter Vffnung 1:5,6 ist elektronische Einstellhilfe einsatzfdhig

(I added the underlining).

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), April 10, 2000.

Sorry about the italics.

-- Geoffrey S. Kane (grendel@nauticom.net), April 10, 2000.

Hi Geoffrey, I'm sorry about the mistakes with the lenses. As I visited the Nikon homepage, they had only one side about the F80 and it didn't say much. No further informations. So I looked into the Nikon News, with that result. I didn't use your link. Shame on me! If you like to have your last posting translated, just let me know.

-- Ralf Grambrock (101.51955@germanynet.de), April 10, 2000.