Id like to get some thoughts on the following: What do you think about the use of a Congregational Covenant to be signed by members of a congregation? It would be used following attendance at a new members / seekers class where the statements in the covenant are explained in detail, so the new member understands just what they are getting into.

I know some congregations are using these now, and I am leaning towards using one in our new work when it gets going. It amazes me how people will join fraternal and civic groups and clubs that have very stringent membership requirements, yet balk at requirements to be involved in a local congregation. One man comes to mind from South Carolina. He was required to be in attendance at all of his fraternal meetings (Masonic Lodge  dont get me started on that one). In his case that meant 3 meetings each week. In addition, there was a high level of financial commitment to the lodge  much higher than a tithe I might add. He was able to do all of the above (even serving as Chaplain or whatever his position was called) but he couldnt make it to Sunday School, and attended AM worship maybe 1-2 times each month.

Under another thread we have discussed the need for a radical change in our congregations to get the people involved in ministry. This could be a tool that could be used.

Are any of you using such a tool now? If so, is it a requirement? If it is required of new members, do the current members get grandfathered in or are they required to sign as well.

Take a look at this sample, and let me know what you think. What would you remove or add, and why? Either from a personal pov, or from Scripture. And if you are totally against the idea, please share that, and why. Sample Congregational Covenant

Because I am saved by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, a member of the body of Christ, and of __________ Church, with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as my help I agree to do the following:
1. I agree to read the Bible, meditate upon the Word of God, and pray daily during a planned time.
2. I agree to pray with and for the members of my household daily, and provide biblical instruction for those under my care.
3. I agree to regularly attend the worship services at ________ Church unless hindered by health or circumstances beyond my control (Heb. 10:25).
4. I agree to abstain from gossip, backbiting, murmuring and negative talk to or about others (Eph. 4:29).
5. I agree to respond to personal conflict and disagreement according to Matt. 5:23,24; 18:15-17; Gal. 6:1; Eph. 4:31,32, and other scriptures that govern human relationships.
6. I agree to regularly and consistently share my faith with others who are unchurched or unsaved and invite them to attend _______ Church (Matt. 28:18-20).
7. I agree to regularly participate in a biblical course of study that is consistent with the doctrines of the Bible as presented by ___________ Church.
8. I agree to be involved in at least one ministry of ________ Church in order to personally glorify God, edify believers, and persuade sinners to be saved through the ministry of the church.
9. I agree to give the Lord a tenth of my income through my tithe to _________ Church, and to give additional offerings as God prospers me (Mal. 3:8-11).
10. I agree to abstain from acts of sexual intimacy with any person other than my spouse (1 Thess. 4:3-5).
11. Foremost, I agree to love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, and might, and to love all others as I love myself (Matt. 22:37-39).

Member Signature ___________________ Date ____________

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Answers

Darrell....

As you know.....I tried it. Didn't like it.

Doesn't work. People break "The Book".....they'll break the covenant.

I know "Rick Warren" does it. He can get by with it....he doesn't have anyone to answer to.

The only way it will work is to have elders who will back up the "if you don't do this....." part of it.

It's a rare church today that can find elders that will back up the Bible.....let alone a Covenant Agreement.

Save yourself the heartache. Just do your best to disciple them.....before their conversion.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Darrell, I hope we never come to this. The early reformers tried it and we have been fighting it for centuries. On the other hand it reminds me of that great commission and the need to Teach the potential converts. I have always thought that, in order for a person to repent of their sins, they needed to have a fairly good understanding of what sin is. This involves more that out arguing a person or manipulating them with an emotional whip to get them in the water. Some of these items will come in time as we began to see the spirit change their lives, but not up front. We should be teaching and preaching on these. Even a class to follow up on new converts would cover such things.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

While I understand and sympathize with your reasoning for this, I think that forming such a covenant departs from Jesus' words in Matthew 5...

"Make no oath at all, either by heaven... or by the earth... nor by your head... but let your statement be 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no.'" (Matthew 5:34-37 - NASB)

Let the people who come desire to be there, not be forced by contract to be show up or to give money. Our Lord had no problem when the uncommitted walked away. He simply put His word out there and allowed people to freely come or go. Any congregation should be, as I read it, no different.

God gives us freewill and takes us at our word when we convert. And every one of us breaks that covenant to love Him supremely for all our lives at some point, at which time we repent and get back aright.

I'm not sure you want to introduce what is in essence another law for people to live by when God already asks these things of us. If people couldn't keep it, or felt led to walk away from the fellowship of your church, then you facilitate a broken covenant or potential condemnation or a heart that grudgingly sticks to a contract.

Discipleship, as Dr. Jon put it on another thread, takes time. If people truly want to be a disciple, they will be. But in the meantime, let the uncommitted come near and soak up the light of our Lord that you offer - they may change. "Give to him who asks of you," even if they are wishy-washy, or worse, evil. (Matthew 5:39-42)

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Duane, I generally agree with the tone of the first two answers. I do, also, understand intimately the problems you seek to address and your desire to adress them. Certainly, these are issues that must be dealt with at length in any congregation.

Here's an idea, that may or may not be any good. It might be useful to use a covenant like this on two levels. On one level, it would certainly be good to introduce, congregation-wide, the idea of a covenant, to teach on the issues at hand, and to call Christians to a higher devotion. But on a strictly voluntary basis. Something like, "I and my family are going to covenant with God and with this congregation in this way. Who will join us in this covenant, and join us in helping to hold each other accountable for our commitment?" I don't think you can or should make it a requirement, but I would encourage such a "voluntary" effort.

One reason why you can't make it a requirement is that you cannot legislate maturity. To covenant in such a way takes a Christian of some deeper level of growth and understanding about what they are signing up for. To make less mature Christians join such a pact will be asking to much of them, at their present level of growth. Yes, it should ENCOURAGE proper growth to take place in them, and you will find some who see or feel the need and jump in chin deep with you. But remember that while the thousands that left Gideon's army (leaving the 300 to fight the battle), while they were not allowed to lead in war, were not disqualified from being God's people. Even the apostle Paul went off to nowhere important for three years to study, to learn, and to prepare to be the spiritual giant he became.

On a second level, however, I can see working such a covenant as this into such a position that it is a requirement for the church LEADERS - - ministers, elders, deacons, Sunday School teachers, etc. No one should be in a leadership role without the kind of commitment to our Lord and to His church that such a covenant calls for.

You're gonna have trouble with the mandated requirement of a tithe, however. As a verse to an old song goes, (sung to the tune of Red River Valley),

"Oh, you said that we all should be tithers. When you said it, you looked straight at me. And from that point 'til now, I've been angry, Because I'm saved by grace, which was free."

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Oops, sorry, Darrell. I forgot who started this. My apologies. To Duane, as well.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Darrell,

I too have seen people willing to dedicate themselves to other things before the Church. The answer is not in some oath they need to sign. Most preachers don't know or follow Jesus' teaching on discipleship - why should we expect it out of the person in the pew? If we would intensely teach on discipleship we would be accused of, as in Acts 17, turning the upside down.

Luke 923ff "And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

This is strong stuff: Self-denial, daily cross-bearing. Notice the word "must."

How about Luke 14:26ff "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

If a person does not do these things, he IS NOT a follower of Jesus, that is, if Jesus meant what He said, and of course He did! The modern Church has grown comfortable with mediocre discipleship. Jesus hasn't.

This goes to the heart of another problem. Many times people are "saved" without ever knowing why they were lost. They do not understand what is important about Jesus so of course they don't place any importance to Jesus.

Well, all this to say, I'm a'gin it.

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Brother Darrell:

All Christians, in every congregation, already have a "covenant with God". " "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days saith the Lord; I will put my Laws on their heart and on their minds I will write them; then saith he, their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." Heb. 10:16,17. " And for this cause he is the mediator of a new covenant, that a death having taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they that have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Heb. 9:15 If they will not honor that covenant, which has been dedicated with the precious blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, all other covenants made by men for their own reasons and not dedicated with innocent blood, are not only fruitless but are sinful!

If they do honor this covenant with God, one with the Church is not necessary for this covenant tells us how we ought to behave ourselves in the "house of God which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." 1 Tim. 3;15. This covenant of Christ is sufficient for every good work that we may attempt to do. " Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in rightousness: that the man of God may be COMPLETE, furnished COMPLETELY unto EVERY good work." ( 2 Tim. 3:16,17.)

In fact we have no instruction or authorization from God to have such human covenants in the Church. For if such covenants say anything LESS than the word of God they say too little. If they say more than God's word they say too much. If they say exactly the same as the word of God, we have the word of God already, and thus those human covenants and creeds are not needed. There is absolutely no scriptural or even reasonable justification for such human covenants. Jesus warned us, " But in vain do they worship me teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men." Matthew 15:9.

Brother Darrell, if they are Christians where you worship (I do not doubt it) then they are already subject to Christ as Lord and thus are bound by the new covenant which He dedicated with his precious blood. Hold them to that covenant by teaching the word of God without ceasing and the problems you are trying to solve with this human covenant that you are considering will be resolved.

I pray that this will help you as you contemplate possible solutions to the problems that you are trying to correct.

I pray that our Lord will be with you and direct you through His Holy Word into the "Faith once delivered to the saints" and that he will bountifully bless you and your family.

Your Brother in Christ,

E. Lee Saffold

-- Anonymous, January 25, 2000

Great responses! Thanks a lot.

My first reaction to the whole idea was kind of negative. Yet there are a number of reports that show this has worked very positively over the past 5-10 years.

One such report highlights mainly Baptist congregations. I wonder if there is any reason why it would work better for them than any other denomination.

I agree that there is no NT command or directive in this area ... yet we do a lot that there is no command or directive for. Maybe it would work, and maybe not ... might depend on the people. I know it would be hard for an established congregation to accept, but maybe not as hard for folks entering a new work. And it is, after all, just a tool to be used to help people understand what they are getting into.

Maybe the same thing could be accomplished by a new members class, where everyone would get an understanding coming in the door.

And I like the idea of using something similar to this for leadership and teaching positions. I agree ... we can expect more from those in leadership. Maybe we shouldn't have to, but it may be the truth nonetheless.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, January 26, 2000

Years ago I asked the preacher why he did not follow the Biblical formula for conducting a meeting of Christians. (1 Cor 14:29 KJV) "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge."

(1 Cor 14:30 KJV) "If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace."

He responded, "Well, I would lose control."

Why do you Pastors feel this uncontrolable urge to control.

(2 Cor 3:17 KJV) "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

Where the spirit of control is there is not liberty.

(Exo 5:1 KJV) "And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, LET MY PEOPLE GO, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness."

(Acts 7:38 KJV) "This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

I currently serve with a congregation that uses covenants extensively, and it works great. All the covenants are not as extensive as the one listed. There are three covenants currently, each which gets signed after a class which in some small part explains the covenant. The first class/covenant is membership, where membership is explained and related issues such as what it means to become a Christian in the first place (the covenant is not "validated" until immersion baptism is done or verified). There the obligations are to pray for leaders, fellowship with the family, attendance at services, that sort of level.

The second class/covenant is spiritual habits -- prayer, tithing, bible study etc. Signers of this covenant promise to pray, give, study, etc, and if they have trouble establishing the habits, seek help.

The third class/covenant is ministry, and signers of this covenant are promising to seek how God has shaped them for ministry and seek God's will for their ministry.

In the future, a fourth covenant will be added, one for evangelism.

It has worked well so far, for leaders know better who they can rely on and members know what is expected of them and at the same time are equipped to meet the expectations.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000

Why can't we just obey Jesus and let it be. (Mat 5:37 KJV) "But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

In a CA church I was in the deacons were strange:

One Deacon told me to buy a suit in order to attend Church...(James 2:2 KJV) "For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;"

(James 2:3 KJV) "And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:"

(James 2:4 KJV) "Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?"

Another Deacon beat the living tar out of his wife when he found she was having a sexual affair...(1 Tim 5:22 KJV) "Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure."

Another Deacon left his wife for his secretary.

If these men had signed a covenant and broke it then not only have they committed the original offense but they have lied in that they could not keep the covenant and that is wrong.

Don't make covenants IMO.

-- Anonymous, February 04, 2000