On another thread, I mentioned that there was an interesting fuel cell article in the Backwoods Home magazine...Wrong!! It was Mother Earth News, the November 1999 issue. The address is in the title to this thread....very good reading!!

-- jeanne (jeanne@hurry.now), January 17, 2000

Answers

Now all you "purists" that may be "lost in the 60s".....I do know that Mother Earth News is not the same as it was way back when. I realize that it did change hands in the past year or so; when the original guy sold out. However, this article is really worth a look. Just think::: if all the money that could be spent on WWIII in protecting our energy supplies could instead be spent on the development and distribution of these fuel cells (preferably hydrogen)...AMAZING to consider!!

-- jeanne (jeanne@hurry.now), January 17, 2000.

The only ecofriendly way to get hydrogen is using solar panels...so fuel cells represent a potential replacement to batteries.

Otherwise, the hydrogen has to be made from nuclear energy or fossil fuels...

This is a cool technology to watch but it is not an energy panacea.

-- not too fast (think@it.through), January 17, 2000.

As currently constituted, fuel cells are not very efficient. Even using methane or petroleum as a source for hydrogen, it is more effective and efficient to use batteries and solar. Or burn fuel and use a stirling engine.

Fuel cells are neat in space but offer litte advantage here on terra firma.

What we need are all the boring technologies of biodiesel, methane digesters for waste, solar, wind, et cetera. The sustainablility of the technolgy will determine its value in a commodity scarce future.

Ever see one of the fuel cells? These are not made in third world environments and that is where we are heading shortly.

-- pliney the younger (pliney@puget.sound.clear.cold), January 17, 2000.

Pliney - There are experimental cells which run on alcohol as well as methane, both of which can be easily generated from agricultural or human waste. Just think, today's lasagna, tomorrow's lighting ... ;-)

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), January 17, 2000.

The early solar panels took more electricity and other power to manufacture and distriute than they could produce in their lifespans. They were not really green at all. It is my understanding that the average "modern" solar panel takes about 2 years to reach break even. This probably does not include the energy and power to produce the mounts, cables, batteries, etc. Does anyone have a source of info to find out what the actual breakeven point is? If it is at or below 3 years finally, I will have to finally buy in!

-- tree (thetrees@bigfoot.com), January 17, 2000.

Jeanne,

Good work on finding more info on fuel cells (although I don't remember the 60s because someone spoke and I went into a dream; and when I finally woke up, it was 1982!)

I think this new tech has promise, especially if the fossil fuel prognosticators are correct about oil at $80/barrel. Even at $40/barrel, new energy sources will become more cost effective.

Plug Power (PLUG) had an IPO in Oct 99 and stock went from $15 to $84, and has now settled at around $55. The Big Oil cartel needs some innovative competition.

-- phoneman (bcrefrig@excelonline.com), January 17, 2000.

After looking at the article more carefully, I see that it could be that Plug Power simply has a joint venture with GE instead of being actually acquired by GE. The article does mention other competitors in this area; I don't know if they are publically traded though. This area might be a good investment. If it were available, I would pay 4,000 to 6,000 for a unit in order to NEVER again depend on the overhead lines(we are at the end of a line).

Here's a part of the article:

"Fuel cells are exceptionally clean power producers. Because fuel cells do not combust fossil fuels, they emit none of the acid rain or smog producing pollutants that are the inevitable by-product of burning coal or oil or natural gas.

"The temperature of the fuel cell stack is below the boiling point of water," Acker explains. "It's warm, but not real hot like combustion." The result is power with none of the sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, unburned hydrocarbons and particulates that are spewed by conventional generating plants--and that makes the electricity industry one of the heaviest polluters on the planet (see "The Dirt on Utilities," page 33).

Fuel cells that use "reformed" hydrogen from fossil fuels do, however, emit CO2, a major culprit in global warming. Take again the example of natural gas: For every four hydrogen atoms that go to power the fuel cell, there's a carbon atom to be dealt with. "The carbon atoms have to come out, and they come out as carbon dioxide," admits Acker.

But even so, he stresses, fuel cells will emit no more--and in most cases far less--CO2-per-kilowatt than do central power plants, particularly given the industry's heavy reliance on carbon-rich coal. "They'll also produce a lot less CO2 than your home furnace," adds Acker, noting that this is especially true if you heat with oil or propane, each of which has a higher carbon-to-hydrogen ratio than does natural gas.

While reformed hydrogen is by no means a perfectly "green" energy solution, it's a giant leap in the right direction."

I also understand that the excess heat that is generated can be used in assisting hot water supply,etc...what about warming a greenhouse? Interesting possibilities!

-- jeanne (jeanne@hurry.now), January 17, 2000.

A fantastic site recommended by The Economist (UK) as "a source of information on hydrogen as a fuel." http://www.ch2bc.org

-- Rick (rick@wmrs.edu), January 17, 2000.

In addition to PLUG, you can invest in MKTY(mechanical Technology) and a Canadian outfit called Ballard. I think their symbol is BALP.

What we need in power is a development curve the same as the one in PC's. How long ago was the 486/33 king of the CPU's.

-- woody (woody11420@aol.com), January 17, 2000.

Plug Power (PLUG) was up 15.45% to 63.5 today! What happened? Did everyone buy in today but me???

-- phoneman (bcrefrig@excelonline.com), January 18, 2000.