I work with a minister who baptizes many of the people in our congregation in "private services", consisting of himself and the person being baptized (occasionally a spouse present). Many times he will announce to the elders after the "private service" that such-n-such came to the church this week and was baptized and placed membership (please don't touch the membership can-of-worms). Needless to say, it has been a while since someone has "come forward" on a Sunday morning to "confess with their mouth..." (Romans 10:9) Not one of these "private services" have an extenuating circumstance like disabilities, illnesses, time-restraints, sudden conversions (Etheopian Eunich), etc. I ask you, "Am I insane?" WAIT! Don't answer that; just stick to the subject...thanks! I do appreciate all input and look forward to your thought-provoking insights!

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Answers

Answer me this question Jason (which in turn will answer your question:

Do you not see it as inconsistent to teach for hours to someone about the need for Christ, and the need for baptism in order to be saved.....and then, when they are ready.....tell them they have to wait till Sunday??

Wait a second....if it is important, if it where I come in contact with the blood of Christ, if it is the point at which I am saved.....then we need to do it.....RIGHT NOW!!!

Correct???

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

EVERYONE.....HOLD THE PHONE....HOLD THE MOUSE.....CHECK YOUR PULSE......WE HAVE BEEN BLESSED WITH NONE OTHER THAN THE IMMORTAL WORDS OF ONE....JAMES BOOK!!!! OH PRAISE THE LORD....HE TOOK TIME TO SPEAK TO US FROM THE MILLENNIAL KINGDOM IN WINTER PARK!!!

Jason.....another question for you....where in the New Testament is the "public confession of faith" that we require people to do on Sunday AM's....i.e., "I Believe....I Believe.....That Jesus is the Christ.....That Jesus is the Christ....etc....

The first century context of "the confession" had much more meaning in a culture of persecution where the consequence of "confessing" Christ often brought death.

I'm sorry....but there is absolutely nothing, speaking from the N.T., that this person your speaking of is doing wrong. Nothing.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

Jason -- in 15+ years of ministry and of immersing people into our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, only a small handfull were immersed on Sunday morning, following an invitation.

In most of the cases, while there wasn't a "sudden conversion," the people came to their understanding of their need for Jesus and to be immersed at a time other than following the morning sermon. I would council, as I do now, that they be immersed at the soonest possible time ... right then is the best time! So, I have immersed people late in the evening, early in the morning, Saturday afternoons, etc..

I don't believe I have ever counciled a person to wait until Sunday. I do, of course, understand that their coming forward, moving to the baptistry, giving their confession of faith, and being immersed is a great testimony to the rest of the congregation. And if that is what they choose to do (and a few have), then that's cool. .

The concept of the modern-day invitation song and coming forward is fairly new, as I understand it, coming out of the revivals and even from the use of the "mourning bench." Of the examples of conversion found in the Book of Acts, all were immersed when they made their decision for Christ ... not at a later time. Yes, Paul thought it over, but was, I am certain, in the process of making his decision. Is there anything wrong with an invitation hymn ... and giving the opportunity for someone to come forward to make a decision? Of course not.

I have found that bringing the person(s) forward at the end of the service (or at whatever point you like ... maybe during praise and prayer time) so they can acknowledge their decision and immersion before their brothers and sisters is just as effective as a witness as having them come forward to be immersed on a Sunday AM..

Should they "confess with their mouth..." (Romans 10:9? Of course ... but that confession can be after the fact just as it can be at the time of immersion.

Then, if you like, they can place membership or ???

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Several thoughts:

1) I myself did a "private" service. I was too shy to go forward, and the subject came up on a Monday night after a scout meeting. (Our preacher was the scoutmaster.) I believe the "confess with the mouth" is not a one time thing, but an ongoing, near constant event. I continue to do that.

2) I am now at my second church where we do no coming forward on a Sunday morning. Why? I can't speak for my current church, but my last church the reasons articulated had to do a lot with perception: i) Coming forward for baptism was felt to be putting too much emphasis on baptism and not enough on committing and constantly recommitting one's life to God. Baptism is only one element of the process, and we consiously made the effort to not overemphasis while not belittling its importance. ii) Coming forward was felt to de-emphasis the concept of "every member is a minister". Instead of a typical invitation, whoever preached that day encouraged the dedicated disciples to speak after services with a fellow dedicated disciple if they needed to respond, a "wayward" Christian to seek out a dedicated disciple, and non-Christians to talk to those who invited them. Members knew that if they couldn't handle that, then they were free to direct them to someone else, like their small group leader or another leader. iii) Acts 20:11 does not say "Then he [Paul] went upstairs again and broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he issued the invitation, and then left". No, Paul simply talked until daybreak then he left.

Bottom line: I think "private services" and "semiprivate services" are more in keeping with Biblical example than "altar calls".

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

Hey lets get these people baptized {Immersed} Plunged dipped whatever you want to call it as soon as possible. This business about waiting till Sunday morning is for the pomp and circumstance crowd Hey I encourage a baptisim in front of the church, but if Now is the hour of salvation than Now is the Hour of salvation.. Paul and Silas did it the same hour of the night etc...

I have told my people at First Christian Church Winter Park Fl that I would love to stir the waters of the baptisimal pool every day of the week.... Just settin the record straight..... Jim Book

-- Anonymous, January 12, 2000

I think all of you are in the ballpark on this one, and are basically saying the same thing. Mark, I struggle with the idea of the altar call too. And baptism being only at a "set time."

What I think this all is, is a result of our modern way of worship. We don't have worship -- we have a "morning program." Everything is lock step, like -- dare I say it -- a variety television program! We have the "Introduction," "Musical Selection," and finally the "Speaker." Its just like a TV show or concert. The minister/speaker is the "headliner," and everything points up to that point. The choirs and prayers are the "opening acts." The fact that we have televised worship services only aggravates this matter. Heaven help us if something out of the ordinary happens!!!

There is no place for the Holy Spirit in such an atmosphere. We have scheduled Him out.

I cringe in my home church when they do the "invitation." "Anxious inquirers" (as Finney and that generation would call them) had better have their minds made up already, because there is no time for anything else. The "decision" is expected to be announced THEN, not after seeking after God. The idea of those seeking after God to come to the front (ala Finney and Moody) has been so distorted. If you came to Finney's "anxious bench" you could expect to be there all night, and the next day, if necessary, praying to God for Him to save you and receive assurance of your salvation. There was no "easy believism" here. You were expected to actually repent of your sin, confessing those sins to God personally. No "sinner's prayer," just real prayer.

I'm starting to drift away from my original point so I will quit. The NT example is repentance, faith, and then baptism immediately. Waiting until the next available service is man-made and for our own convenience.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

I have been unable to read the posts on this subject until Jon's came in. I may be repeating what has been said.

First of all some people put great stock in WHO takes the baptizee down into the water. It matters not who does the act. The act is between God and the person baptized. An illustration I always use is a three year old child could do the *taking down* if he/she could hold the baptizee up. Once, someone said it took a preacher to perform the act. Of course, that is incorrect since the preacher system we have today is not authoritized in scripture. Anyone anywhere can assist the person. In fact, if one were out on Gilligan"s Island and being all alone, and coming to realize he was a sinner, repenting to God for his sins, then he could go out into the ocean and baptize himself.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

In churches today, we have become too traditional with the "invitation" only being on Sunday mornings. I was blown away last year when, I had a first time guest come to me during the week after the service they visited and say "I want to be baptized right now!" I asked him a few questions (to see if he knew what he was talking about- he did), then I immersed him. There was not another soul around except him and myself. Was this unbiblical? No. Was this odd? Yes. Of all the years of bible college learning and years of ministry, no one has ever come out the blue and tell me to baptize them in like manner.

Perhaps, it would be more consistant of biblical presedent to do this. If we look at every case of a "conversion" experience in the book of Acts... no where is there anyone coming forward during the service for salvation, nor do we finding anyone waiting to be immersed, they were either that "hour",or "night" after they were taught about Jesus. To me this is more special because there is an intimacy thing going on. People plainly accept Christ and are immersed into Him. Now, honestly there are times when I struggle with this issue. Can a person accept Christ and be immersed, yet refuse to confess him with their mouth? Perhaps I will always struggle with this one.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

Oh no...I am putting myself at risk here, because I agree with Nelta! ::laffs::

The whole idea of a clergy system is another whole subject, but...as far as I have understood the New Testament, yes indeed, ANY BELIEVER can baptize a convert. Our thinking has been so steeped in "tradition" that sometimes that point is forgotten. The only thing a "lay person" CANNOT do is marry someone, and that is only because of the laws of the state, not the Bible.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

Jason, I once got in trouble with some elders who said that I always immersed someone other than Sunday morning, and that it would be nice to have an immersion during the worship services. I believe that they were all wet.(NO PUN intended) I simply stated that as long as I was doing the immersing, that I would do it the same hour that they made a decision that they needed Christ, unless they specified otherwise. I believe that it is a greater testimony to hear on Sunday morning that so-in-so was immersed for the remission of their sins and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit last _______ and to welcome them into our family, than it is to see someone wait to do this. The waiting may influence others that are in the decision process, but it says that immersion is not a vital part of the plan of salvation by waiting. If the bible teaches that immersion is a necessary part of the plan of salvation, then waiting to do it is saying that it is not. What do we want to teach by example? I have been preaching since 1975 and most of my immersions were done other than Sunday.

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

I consider myself a conservative but far from a traditionalist. Perhaps my wording made it seem so... I agree with the posts up to this point. I DO believe the time of salvation is NOW (24/7) and action is prompted sooner (present) than later (wait 'til "invitation" time on Sunday). The point was made that the "Believeing/Confessing" of Romans 10:9 is an ongoing expression of one's faith. Is that an outward expression of the faith or inward? Shouldn't there be at least a mention that such-n- such has entered the kingdom to at least be a testimony to the congregation? On this end it appears these "private" baptisms are also "private" conversions; this is my difficulty in understanding. I know it is God alone who knows the hearts of man, but shyness aside, it IS pretty easy to find out...."Do you believe that Jesus is The Christ,... etc. etc." and this normally happens on a Sunday morning as a testamony to the faithful. Thank you all for the insights!

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

re: the public confession. How many of us have said or heard these words when someone came forward: "There is only one question I have the right to ask you: Do you believe Jesus to be the Son of God, and do you take Him as your Lord and Savior?" (or words to that effect -- and actually that is two questions)!

I'm sure I used words to that effect on a regular basis. Yet there really are a bunch of questions we could ask of someone submitting to immersion. The above questions are good, as would be inquiring of their committment level ... will they support their local congregation in the Kingdom work ... etc.

The confession of the mouth is certainly an ongoing thing.

re: who is doing the immersing. I try very hard to have the person who "won" the new convert to the Lord to do the immersing. There is a connection there, especially in the case of children. There is something very special about seeing a parent immerse their child into the Lord. I suggest this whenever possible, but at my last congregation found that the elders (and a couple of other folks) balked at the thought ... and when I suggested a mother could immerse her child, they thought I had gone off the deep end. How sad.

Isn't it great to see the rest of the ministers of the congregation (that is the congregation themselves) getting involved in the work of the ministry!

re: where to take the confession. Most of us take the confession on the floor once the person(s) come forward. I started taking the confession in the baptistry, just before the dunking. I wanted to help the person see the connection between their decision, confession and the immersion. Some might think that, now that they had come forward and became a Christian, it was then time to get immersed. This is just one way to help educate about the biblical connection between immersion and conversion.

One other thought while we are on immersion. Just curious -- how many of you, when dunking someone, put your one hand behind their neck or something like that, then raise the other hand high in the air while saying whatever you might be saying at the time? I did at the first immersion I was blessed to participate in ... but about halfway through the "You are now being immersed int he name of ..." I looked up and couldn't really figure out why my right hand was raised to the sky. Maybe an antenna to help receive God's grace for the person I was dunking? Since that time I have chosen not to raise the hand up ... nothing wrong if you choose to do so ... I guess it's what we are used to.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, January 13, 2000

I baptized my wife in a hot tub after a home fellowship meeting, with just a few friends in attendance. I have no problems with public baptisms on Sunday mornings, as it certainly is a great picture of following the Lord in His death, burial and resurrection. But it is not written that baptisms must always follow our Sunday morning services; that is just a modern convention. Baptism in the Bible almost always took place immediately after conversion.

Re: the confession, I was a little disturbed a couple years ago when a survey of ministers appeared in the Christian Standard magazine which said that a majority of Christian church pastors would welcome a Mormon into the fellowship. This points to two things: One, we are seriously lax in good Biblical teaching in our churches (something our local church is currently acting on) and two, Mormons, JW's, and a great many other cultists could easily say our pat formula "Good Confession" without any problems (they have, of course, redefined all the terms). If that is the only question we ask to ascertain a believers committment level, we are in serious trouble!

As to the raising of the hand, I think it has something to do with the solemnety of the ceremony. Like when a bailiff raises his right hand and has the person being sworn in to do the same. Or the Chief Justice with the President (not that it did us a fat lot of good with Clinton hahaha). Another contemporary custom.

-- Anonymous, January 15, 2000

Howdy folks~

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

Cute Duane:)

-- Anonymous, January 17, 2000

This doesn't exactly fit in this thread, but it was a great thought I thought I would share. This is from Greg Koukl of "Stand to Reason" ministry. Not meaning to start the whole "Baptism/Salvation" thread again (this person comes from a Calvinist background and believes baptism to be the first act of obedience of a saved person ... so you might find his comment surprising!) ... but this person's comment, on how to deal with those annoying people who glibly say "Oh yes, I believe in Christ, yada yada," is excellent and I think people on both sides of the issue can agree with it, so I thought I would share it with the group.

Curing the Intellectual Assent Problem

In the New Testament there were no "altar calls." Instead, baptism was the public focal point of conversion in the early church. It served to protect against substituting mere intellectual assent for genuine faith, and it can serve the same function today.

If people tell you they already believe in Christianity, but you suspect something's amiss, ask, "Are you willing to be baptized? Are you willing to stand up as an adult in public and confess your faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and to publicly identify yourself with Christ's Church?" If they're not willing, I suspect their so-called faith is just intellectual assent, not saving faith.

Willingness to be baptized separates the sheep from the goats, spiritually speaking. It separates those who have a genuine faith in Jesus Christ from those who are merely giving intellectual assent to the doctrines of Christianity. True biblical faith entails action and identification. If one acts to publicly identify himself with Jesus Christ and with His people in baptism, then he's probably moved beyond mere intellectual assent.

-- Anonymous, January 30, 2000