Hello all: I found this board about two weeks ago and have been lurking around since then. I am highly appreciative of all the reports and info made available here. I'll start with a glitch report. Here in the Southeastern Ohio, West Virginia area, a local Kroger lost all ability to accept credit card transactions. Interesting thing is that the workers were afraid to even report it to their superiors initially. Does it make sense that maybe Kroger would not want to report this to their accountability people - the public? Further, at around GMT - about 5 hours before our 12:00 midnight 1/1/2000, a local power plant's primary system switched to date 2/26/2006. They had no idea why, had to switch the plant to manual, reset comps after the rollover. They did nothing to fix the problem - if called upon again in a similar way, this program will spit out bad info.

There have been various other "little" glitches that have affected video stores, etc . . . but nothing "major." Of course that is coming. . . Please bear with me in the following - I will get to some VERY interesting Y2k info at the end of it.

Which brings me to the sceond part of my post. Why do most people in the world, but especially the pollys, feel the need to be prophets? What do prophets do, according to the scriptures? Predicting the future is a/the primary job of prophets, no matter what religion you belong to. Yet almost everyone in the world makes their prediction. "It's over . . . (followed by name calling)" OR "This is going to be REALLY bad, (followed by well reasoned logic)"

Well, there are false prophets and true prophets. The only true prophets base their prophecies on revelation from God, either through dream, vision, or word of knowledge - any of which must be in line with the principles of scripture to be valid. (Note Daniel, Joseph, Apostle John, Elijah, Peter's vision of the sheet filled with unclean animals). Most people in the world are guessing and yet "predicting" the future - The polly says, "It's over," and is predicting a future which he or she DOES NOT know. Many of the "Doomers," as they like to call us, are also making predictions based on NOTHING other than reasoning.

Let's face it people, regardless of your religious orientation or lack thereof, we humans know VERY LITTLE of what goes on in this world in the past or present tense, much less what is going to happen. Reasoning will not get us very far in being able to predict future events. However, there are two things that will, which have already been mentioned. (1) The scripture of truth; and (2) revelation from God.

If we look at several scriptures, we can see confirmation of what I am saying. . .

" . . . if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments . . . that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, because you obey the voice of the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 28: 1,2

Now, if we look at this passage as related to America today, we are on top of the world at present - high above all the nations. Has America as a whole been keeping the commandments of God? No - the public has approved of our leader being an adulterer,(just as an example). Yet. we are high . . .? How can this be? Well, either the scriptures are imperfect and ALL Christians throughout the centuries have been deceived and wasted lots of time and effort, OR Deuteronomy 28:15 is coming to pass shortly. It reads:

"But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: . . . Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land . . . The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke you in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. . . He (the alien) shall lend to you, but you shall not lend to him (already true with our trillions of dollars of debt in what, 50 years?) From Deuteronomy 28

Now, if the scripture is true, then America is due for some cursing. If it's not, then it's time for me to PARTY!! Of course, we are to consider the goodness and the severity of God - the goodness is that more people will be brought to knowing "The Eternal One" and therefore, to salvation from their sins if this prosperity is brought to an end. Thus, while God will bring curses down on this people, it will be for the greatest good of the universe.

One other scriptures before I get to the Y2k info. This is the aforementioned Amos 3:7:

"Surely the Lord God does NOTHING unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets."

Hmmm . . . Could this still be true? Well, the scriptures say that it is. Therefore, either it is, or again, it's time to PARTY!!! Infomagic and Cory Hamasaki say that the party is over. As far as I know, Cory is basing his "prophecy" on reasoning. And, as far as I know, Infomagic is basing his "prophecy" on reasoning and, more importantly, the principles of scripture. I note that I have yet to see anyone attempt to actually refute Info's "I was wrong, It will be worse". Most respondents over at Deja have merely called him names and been mean - even so far as to call him a servant of Satan and accuse him of storing up "treasures on earth."

I'm here to say that no less an authority than God says that "The Party's Over." Here is a portion of the revelation which God has given to persons in my assembly which confirms Infomagic's and more or less Cory's scenarios nearly perfectly. Enjoy, and I look forward to the responses to this post.

Dream: Susan Wendelken I am with Gloria and we are running through city streets, eluding a policeman who is chasing us. The reason why we are being chased is not given. Throughout the dream, we are always a step or two ahead of him. I am carrying in my arms a package of raw hamburger. There is chaos in the streets. People are running madly in all directions. Policemen are also running about to keep order. I know two things: 1: the season is Spring, 2: is understanding of what Harold Moore (pastor) meant when he referred to the downfall of America as ...the end of life as we know it. The American way of life - prosperous ease - was over.

Dream: Gloria Houchens, December 14, 1998 I knew that the electricity would be shut off for an extended period of time due to the Y2K problem. I knew that my family would have to move in with another family and other families would likewise have to bunch up. I walked into the house that we would be living in. As I walked through the kitchen, I looked to see if we were prepared for cooking without electricity. It was important to be set up to do so, and anyone not prepared would be in big trouble. I walked into the bathroom and looked at the supplies that were available. I was going to bring up arranging the belongings of both families so that everyone would know where things were so that they could be found without lights in the evening.

Dream: Andrea McComas I was coming off of a bridge in preparation to observe the Year 2000 problem/activities. I saw a train coming down the tracks. The train began weaving sideways on the tracks, very slowly at first. My thought was "This doesn't look too bad." The weaving of the train began to increase in intensity, swaying further and further to the each side, until it eventually derailed. The pace escalated greatly. Another train likewise derailed (coming from the opposite direction). Then an airplane overhead crashed. Calamities began unfolding rapidly. I wished I had stayed home because of the danger.

Dream: Gloria Houchens A messenger and I were standing on the balcony of a tall building overlooking the Ohio River. He instructed me to behold the following event unfolding. There were many people swimming on the banks of the river, like one would find at the beach. I watched as a very large aircraft carrier came up river. Its wing span went from bank to bank. It was moving very fast and leaving a wake. The people on the banks of the river watched as it went by. Taking it lightly, and never having seen such a phenomenon before, they played in its wake. Most thought this to be a harmless activity, but what they did not know was that after the first small waves, the waves would increase in size until it ended with a giant tidal wave. The small waves the people enjoyed, encouraging others to join in the "fun". The waves increased in size before people could get back and away from the danger. Then I saw from around the bend, a wall of water at the finish which came all the way up to where I stood on the balcony sweeping away all that was in my view. It was a shocking thing.

Dream: Tina Morris Several years ago I dreamt.......that an earthquake hit our area. I was standing in the Cheshire area looking west to east. I saw two smoke stacks begin to sway back and forth. I knew one of them was Gavin Power Plant. They swayed back and forth, back and forth. Finally, they collapsed and there was mass destruction as far as I could see. There were huge chunks of concrete and injured people everywhere. I did not know where my children were so I began to look for them. I was weeping and mourning like Ive never mourned before. I found each of my children one by one except Josiah. There was doubt he would be found. In the end I found him and wept for joy. Interpretation: I told Bob Davidson (pastor) the dream having heard nothing of the upcoming Y2K trouble. He said that the two smoke stacks represent the prosperity of this area and its downfall. My children would be saved but by the skin of their teeth, so to speak.

Dream: Linda Sheets 12-29-92 I looked and saw Kyger Creek Power Plant. The stack began breaking in two in the middle. When it fell, the top touched another building, setting off a string of exploding buildings. It looked like a whole city of buildings going up in explosions. There was a lot of fallout. The fallout was poisonous and everyone had to leave their homes.

Dream: Andrea McComas Monday, April 6, 1998 I was talking to Meigs Christian Center people who were seated in a classroom. I was telling them about reading the book The Hiding Place and about the characters Betsie and Corrie Ten Boom. People werent listening well. (The night before at Rosemary Pierces house, we had prayed about how bad was it going to get.)

"REALLY hard times" dream: Rosemary Pierce I was in a local diner, full of local people. Some I knew, some I did not. I saw that they were under a strong slumber, full of their prosperity. I spoke out across the diner so that all would hear, " Hard times are coming, REALLY hard times!" The people began to rise out of their seats, furious at me for implying that their prosperity would end. They were yelling and the place became very disrupted. So much so that the waitresses threatened to call the police on me. I said, "Fine, I'll leave." At a later date, Mark was there with me. I knew that the people still hated me, but they left me alone because he was there.

"For when they say, "Peace and Safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape." I Thessalonians 5:3

To all you believers in Jesus Christ out there, Do not forget the scriptures and remember that God will tell you portions of the future . . . If you ask, believiing. He exalts His Word above His name.

Robert Bright roosterbos@go.com

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 11, 2000

Answers

Wow. This thread will probably get deleted within an hour or so, as it falls outside the posting guidelines. But I gotta respond anyway. I agree with the Amos 3:7 idea. God does reveal what He's about to do. But Satan is able to appear as an angel of light. The only way to "test the spirits" is to line up the "revelation" with existing scripture, and to examine the track record of the "prophet". With the dreams related above, there is no way I can see to test them against any scripture. They may as well come from a ouija board. Also, we have no idea the track-record of the "dreamers". Have they ever issued a prophesy which didn't come true? If so, according to Old Testament law, they should be stoned to death. But most "dreams" I see above are not specific in time. It's too vague as to WHEN these things are supposed to take place. I can make any prophesy I want, as long as I keep it vague enough. If Mr. Bright could enlighten us as to these dreamers track records it would help. We should be very careful not to pass on personal speculation as a word from God. I think our focus should not be so much on trying to divine what is to come, but rather on what God would have us doing. Focus on NOW, not the future. What does God want for you NOW.

-- RPGman (tripix@olypen.com), January 11, 2000.

(IF) THIS is from The LORD it will come to pass.AS IT IS WRITTEN "I WATCH over MY word to perform it."

-- J (jax@borg.com), January 11, 2000.

Thank you

-- ImSo (happy@prepped.com), January 11, 2000.

I vote to keep this, it's just precious!

"making predictions based on NOTHING other than reasoning"

"we humans know VERY LITTLE of what goes on in this world in the past or present tense, much less what is going to happen. Reasoning will not get us very far in being able to predict future events"

Did I just blink and miss the rescindence of Free Will? Y2K is a human problem; it's the only (potential) large scale disaster that is purely due to the hand of man, therefore understandable, therefore predictable. It just turns out that Big Business got it right in this instance, and us uninformed speculators screwed up.

"Let's do nothing until we hear from God" is a fine attitude if you want to live in trees and get eaten by leopards. Oops, sorry, slipped right into heresy there, I forgot that we were created "as is", weren't we? Can't type any more, laughing too hard. Thanks, you've spread some joy today. ;)

-- Servant (public_service@yahoo.com), January 11, 2000.

Interesting post for some of us.

Note, though, that dreams are very tricky to interpret (I'm talking divine interpretation). Unless I know you, the dreamer and have a specific illumination from the Holy Spirit, that confirms known scripture, they are of little or no value.

It is certainly true that divine judgment will overtake America, but I have very little confidence in our ability to date it.

For myself, I have described my Y2K impact opinions as "expectations" though they could certainly be taken by many as a prediction. Anyway, we make predictions all the time, often unconsciously ("I predict the sun will come up tomorrow and will do 'x' and 'y' during the day") though the Lord could certainly return before then to "spoil" those plans.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 11, 2000.

RPGMan - The only way to "test the spirits" is to line up the "revelation" with existing scripture If you question the source of any message you receive, you need only ask the Creator if it was from him, the answer will remove any doubt....

Servant, ...large scale disaster that is purely due to the hand of man,... Is not the hand of man driven from beyond the man, everything happens for a reason....

BigDog Note, though, that dreams are very tricky to interpret Especially by others, dreams are meant for the ones that have them and it is theirs alone to interpret....

Blue Hawk

-- BH (bh_silentvoice@hotmail.com), January 11, 2000.

None of those dreams were necessarily prophetic anyway. They were just dreams of disaster, which aren't particularly unusual.

I used to have them (dreams involving global disasters) when I was a teenager. Lots of dead bodies & burned animal carcasses, columns of starving refugees streching to the horizon, ruined cities, all in technicolor & vivid detail. Yuck. I'm thankful they're gone now. Probably some kind of puberty-related/hormonal crap. If I have to live thru any of that in real life, it will be major deja-view.

-- not looking (forward@to.it), January 11, 2000.

I find prophets and dreams very interesting. We are to test them against the Bible-if they disagree with it they are not from God. If their predictions do not come true, we are not to listen to them or be afraid of them. Chuck Youngbrandt,Henry Gruever, and Daniel Rodes,( all prophets whose predictions have come true) have said that after the year 2000, nothing will be the same. Chuck specifically said the Lord showed him after August. He predicted the assasination attempt on Reagan. Thanks for sharing, Robert. Feel free to contact me via email if you have more to share that is not welcome on this board.

-- morgan (bitbybit@eoni.com), January 11, 2000.

.....A "prophet", per se, has zero to do with any fortune telling, as the term in the Hebrew means simply, "a spokesman for God" and no more; as God said he would not reveal Himself to man, (ish, meaning *mankind*, no gender implied), after a time. The only "seeing" ability that a prophet has, therefore, is from his knowledge of Scripture, and what it holds for the future. If the "visions" purported by a "prophet" are not completely in line with the written word, then he is obviously a false prophet, and yes, the Old Testament punishment was stoning unto death. .....I sometimes wonder how much better this world would be if there was a universal death-penalty for lying.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), January 11, 2000.

Well . . . Having reveiwed the responses thus far, I am pleasantly surprised at the lack of "You're a crazy religious fanatic" answers. But, there are obviously some dissenters and questioners. So be it - I expected no less. That said, I reply to several of the responses individually.

"-RPGman": No way to test them against scripture? In what way? They line up with the principles of scripture which I pointed out, do they not? Further, they line up with each other, even though they came from different people and even in different years. As to the track record of our dreamers and whether persons here should believe these dreams or not - I did not post this to see if someone might believe them. I posted them to get responses - to see what was in people's hearts and whether they would harden their hearts to the principle that God speaks to persons through various revelations today. There is really no way a dream in itself can be "false" - the interpretation can be, however. Admittedly, our interpretations have on occassion been flawed, as we have learned about interpreting these revelations. Note that as we have learned about these revelations, we have had little support from various religious circles - more like persecution. But, the Lord did tell 5 or 6 people in our assembly the precise moment of the top of the market in 1987 - it was 3:03 PM on August 25. We announced this to brokers in the area prior to the 25th, and they confirmed that the market did indeed peak and start dropping from there. The Lord also told us of the actual crash. He told me of my fiance's "adultery," before anyone else knew of it. And more and more and more. So, as I said, there have been mistakes in interpretation, particularly as regards timing. But, as everyone here might note, the Apostle Paul expected the return of Christ in his lifetime. He was off by about 2000 years. Timing is a very difficult thing to obtain - God generally seems to save exact timing for right before the event.

Finally, to RPGman and Patrick: I assume you refer to Deuteronomy 18:20 - death penalty for false prophecy. Well, lets look at it. "But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded Him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." Ok - shows the death penalty, but for what? Two verses later, ". . . when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hsa not spoken; the prophet has spoken presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. Hmmm. . . The previous verse speaks of presumption and speaking in the name of other gods - death penalty. This second verse speaks of presumption and something which has been spoken not coming to pass, yet no death penalty. Hmmm . . .

Then, in Deuteronomy 13, we see the prophet and dreamer of dreams drawing people after other gods and the people are commanded not to listen to the prophet or dreamer and to put that prophet or dreamer to death. Could there be a difference between the offenses in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, and 18:20 as opposed to 18:22? It would appear so.

And, RPGman and Patrick, the Apostle Peter made a false prediction to Jesus Christ in Matthew 16:22, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You." Did it happen? Should Jesus have stoned Peter?

Further, there was a "school of prophets" in the O.T. If I recall, Samual had such a thing, and the "sons of the prophets" in II Kings 2 went around prophecying to Elisha that Elijah was going to be taken away by the Lord yet they weren't qualified to be prophets yet - they were learning. What were they learning? How would they learn?- "Sons of prophets" from Bethel and Jericho both told Elisha about Elijah's taking, but he knew it already. Then, when Elijah was taken up by the Lord, the sons of the prophets were concerned that the spirit of the Lord might have dropped Elijah. Is this the maturity of a full-grown prophet walking in the Spirit of God at all times? No. Were they stoned? No. Were they criticised? Yes, a bit.

As to "Servant", did I say anthing about free will being removed? Nope, and didn't even imply such. If you think that God does not use human stupidity and oversight in His plan, then you must not think he has much of a plan, if any at all.

BigDog - Agreed - as I mentioned to RPGman and Patrick, interpretation has been the primary problem - it MUST be done by the spirit, and as our church is filled with "spoiled" Americans who God is teaching to listen to Him rather than their flesh and Satan - to walk by His Spirit in season - and out of season - we have had difficluties. I say spoiled Americans because there really is no other way to look at it - we live in the most prosperous time, I suppose, in history. We probably have more "things" to distract us than some kings had 1000 years ago.

And BigDog, as far as these "daily" predictions you speak of "I predict the sun will come up tomorrow and will do 'x' and 'y' during the day, I refer you to the writing of James 4 - "Come now, you who say, 'Today or tommorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit'; whereas you do not know what will happen tommorrow . . . Instead, you ought to say, 'If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that.' But you now boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil." I'm sure I have done this many times, as we all have - say I was going to do something tommorrow without taking the Lord into account. This is considered presumption here - Hmmm . . . sounds a bit like Deuteronomy 18:22. For your interest, check out my website on the end times at www.angelfire.com/wv/robwbright.index.html

"not looking" perhaps your dreams in childhood were telling you something and you weren't and aren't listening. "To him who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

"Morgan" - you virtually quoted Deuteronomy 18:22 - I suppose without even knowing it - "not to listen to them or be afraid of them" Great!!! - you understand the principle - If a prophet would draw back from the Lord, his revelation would, of course, be less clear or perhaps wrong. If, though a prophet is filled with the Spirit of the True and Living God, then NOTHING he says will fall to the ground - he would be speaking the PURE word of God with none of himself invovled in it. I may well contact you.

"Patrick": Have you considered what Daniel "SAW" He was shown the end times, thousands of years before they happened. Further, he SAW, to the day, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem, to Messiah the king would be an exact number of days. The prophecy is perfect, to the day - Ivan Panin, a mathematician, did the math and its perfect. Hmmm. . . did Daniel get this only from knowledge of scripture. I think not. Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

Thanks to all who haev read and replied to my post. I've enjoyed the comments.

Robert Bright

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 11, 2000.

Robert...

.....I have two replies for both times you have addressed me above. One, the only "life" the Father is concerned with is eternal life, so the dying due to false prophesy is, I suppose , that life. Peter is "the rock" and had earned his way beyond his earthly errors.

.....Secondly, I qualified my statement regarding the modernday prophets, which would exclude the prophets of old. Naturally, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah, et al were given vision. None is to be given to modern man, as God had said he would no longer reveal Himself to man, (ish).

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), January 11, 2000.

Patarick said:".....Secondly, I qualified my statement regarding the modernday prophets, which would exclude the prophets of old. Naturally, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah, et al were given vision. None is to be given to modern man, as God had said he would no longer reveal Himself to man, (ish)."

Patrick you do err. I thought I dealt with this in another post a week or so ago but here it is again. If it is true that God said he would no longer reveal Himself to man would you please cite the chapter and verse. You can't because it is not in the bible. Nowhere to be found!!! In fact just the opposite. God did say that He would reveal Himself. So now let me cite some verses in the NEW testament that supports what Robert Bright just said in this post and what I have said here in this forum many times.

Ephesians 4:11 "...And He Himself (Jesus) gave some to be apostles, some PROPHETS, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers".

I Corinthians 12:28 "...And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues."

John 14:19-21 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me, Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

I Corinthians 14:22 "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not but for them which believe." This explains why the world and many on this forum mock prophesy.

I Corinthians 14:3 "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church."

I Corinthians 12:4/5 "There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord."

John 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; AND HE WILL TELL YOU THINGS TO COME."

Robert: Thank you for the excellent post.

S. David Bays, prophet of the Lord Jesus, who is Commander of the Army of the LORD. By His grace and despite my unworthiness, My Lord Jesus appeared to me in a dream as He appeared before Joshua before the Battle of Jericho, with His sword drawn. For He is most alive.

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), January 12, 2000.

Mr. Bays: Thank you for your support - I appreciate it. I think I and others in my assembly would enjoy contacting you further. I suppose I'll e-mail you personally

Robert Bright

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 12, 2000.

Robert: 12 years ago the Lord told me of very hard and difficult times to come and to prepare. - I have been talking about it ever since and warned. I must admid that I have felt like Jeremiah during the "fat" years of plenty during the Defense time eara (Silicon Valley) to proclaim of extreme hardship to come. I am not waivering, God said it and that settles it! - Over the past several days the Lord has also been talking to friends concerning "milk for children" and to prepare. - Remember, God will tell us ahead of time what is to come, however, in His time and space and not ours. Therefore, be watchful and vigilent, rough times are just ahead of us.

-- Barbara Alexander (ba3_4him1@yahoo.com), January 12, 2000.

Patrick--on what scripture do you base your belief that God would not give any more prophecies to modern man? I haven't seen that phrase. Interesting. I would agree more with the poster who referred to the Holy Spirit who continues to interact with us and reveal things to us.

Robert, I was also feeling that God led me to prepare this year (plus I read everything I could get my hands on so I analyzed the situation too). And I am a Christian of 20+ years. I am a bit stunned by what I consider to be miraculous results (apparently the same for countries that didn't prepare as for those who did) and am very thankful. So far I havent figured it out but have asked God to give me some insight because what I am really concerned by "is did I misunderstand God's leading?"

I would be leery of the dreams. Many many many people had dreams this year. I saw Christians get pretty freaky right out there with the other religions and new agers. Again, I would primarily trust the scripture and what I am seeing with my eyes unless I have confirmation of the dream through scripture and possibly through another means of confirmation. Remember, even the "elect" can and will be led astray. That also is true for taking scripture out of context and using single verses as a basis for making "prophecies" for the future--I am cautious of that. Because some of those verses were truly meant for those recipients at that time (although I agree they do show general principles as well).

Personally, I don't have a clue what is going to happen now and guess I will just leave that up to God. So far he has done pretty well.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 12, 2000.

tt (cuddluppy@AOL.com:

As regards the dreams, I did not post them expecting anyone to believe them. However, they are in accordance with the principles of scripture and with the revelation of other prophets (David Wilkerson, for instance). Further, they come from people I know, at least one of which is standing in the office of prophet now. Finally, they are only a small portion of the revelation God has given us regarding things to come - these dreams are our "public" dream pack that we have passed out to many people - to be a sign. I have some revelation of my own that the Lord has given me regarding calamities and blessings in the future, but they are not appropriate for this forum at this time.

Thanks for your response.

Robert Bright

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 12, 2000.

Robert, tt, and my friend, sdb...

.....I am engaged in activity at present, but I fully intend to provide reference for that which I have said, if not this evening, (the 12th), then tomorrow evening, so please check back in.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), January 12, 2000.

Joel

2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning [clouds] spread over the mountains... The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.

11 The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong [is the One] who executes His word. For the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

12 " Now, therefore," says the LORD, "Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning." 13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the LORD your God, For He [is] gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm.

17 Let the priests, who minister to the LORD, Weep between the porch and the altar;...

23 Be glad then, you children of Zion, And rejoice in the LORD your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, And He will cause the rain to come down for you -- The former rain, And the latter rain in the first [month.] 24 The threshing floors shall be full of wheat... 28 " And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on [My] menservants and on [My] maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days. 30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

There will be another outpouring of God's Spirit even greater than at Pentecost, for the latter temple shall be greater than the former. They will dream dreams and see visions referring to the little people of the earth, those we know not. You will know if their word is from the LORD if you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned and the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit. (1Cor. 2)

Christians have always known that bad things will happen before His appearing. There cannot be dates put on these things. Jesus said, "I tell you these things before they come to past, that when they happen you may believe that I am He." John 14:29. This is referred to as the moral purpose of prophecy. Thus, when these things happen we are not taken by surprise. No, rather our faith is strengthened in Jesus to endure and stand.

There are very strong warnings about false prophets rising up to deceive the people before the coming of the LORD. Matthew 24. This means that there are true prophets during that time. We are told to test the prophets. By their fruits you shall know them.

Having said that do not dismiss our brother Patrick so quickly. In Hebrews 1 it reads that God has spoken His last word through His SON. The revelation has been completed. The Bible is all we really need to endure unto the end. The prophets must prophecy according to the Word and to the testimony. Paul wrote, Despise not prophesying, hold on to that which is good. God be with us all.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), January 12, 2000.

One word says it all: AMEN

Robert - I would like to know if I could e-mail you a few items. David Wilkerson is one the best. - God bless.

-- Barbara Alexander (ba3_4him1@yahoo.com), January 13, 2000.

BB said: "Having said that do not dismiss our brother Patrick so quickly. In Hebrews 1 it reads that God has spoken His last word through His SON. The revelation has been completed. The Bible is all we really need to endure unto the end. The prophets must prophecy according to the Word and to the testimony. Paul wrote, Despise not prophesying, hold on to that which is good. God be with us all."

Well yes. Jesus, The Son of God, The Commander of the Army of the LORD, our Saviour and King, IS the last word. He IS the WORD. He is the Alpha and the Omega. I can't even comprehend that and anybody who claims to is a liar. However, if we are to interpret Hebrews 1 so narrowly as you are perhaps suggesting, then it would have been heresy for any of the "inspired" new testament books following the gospels to be written much less to be regarded as inspired in the wake of the crucifiction and ascension. But God has always worked through people and I suspect He always will.

Clearly, the Apostle Paul acknowledged the gift of prophecy as being active in the church. The problem with the modern church is that it has a form of Godliness but denies the power thereof. A pole taken a couple years ago confirmed that 62% of the church in America believes that Satan is nothing more than a symbol or is an outmoded teaching and aproximately the same percentage does not believe that there is such a thing as a Holy Spirit. Many of these people are pastors and teachers in the church. It is no wonder that the church is so complacently and comfortably anemic. Many of these pastors will attack you if you claim to have had a revelation from God. Here, here now, we can't have any of that. How many pastors do you know of or have you heard thunder in the pulpit about the heinous evil of infanticide being waged in our country today? The silence of the church on the abortion issue is deafening. Oh, that's right, because of the 501c3 tax exempt status which makes the church now a "child of the state" the church has been effectively silenced. Don't want to lose that tax status, after all, can't talk about anything political don't ya know. That money thing is real important to the board and to the congregation. Hogwash!!! I believe that God will hold His church accountable.

A good Y2K jolt would have probably strengthened and wakened a slumbering church. I'm just wondering, is America being set-up for a fall every bit as alarming as the dire predictions were for Y2K. I believe so. I have seen the mushroom clouds, and the pillars of smoke and fire and I know that God has raised up His prophets all over this land with similar warnings. Will the church listen? Some will but many or most won't. Nothing has changed since the days of Jeremiah and the prophets of old.

John 16:3 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."

Ephesians 4:11 "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers."

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), January 13, 2000.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

I thoroughly reject the notion that the only people who should ever be listened to regarding the future are ones who are believed to be a mouthpiece for one's own god. The consequences of failed prediction by anyone who presumes to speak under these conditions should not be the possibility of death at your hand. The idea that every expression of even one's own plans for the future must be preceded by some religious mumbo jumbo (in order to avoid the possibility of accidentally making a failed prediction) is ridiculous. Watch your back around anyone who unquestioningly follows such scripture. They believe that they have been instructed by their god to murder people for speaking about the future.

I do not speak against every wrongheaded belief that I see. In this case, though, a climate of murderous intimidation is encouraged against those who merely dare to speak about the future.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), January 13, 2000.

Dancr:

1: The point is to avoid making predictions based on knowledge and reasoning because both are quite limited and flawed. Thus, the person who is a true and obedient believer in Jesus Christ will say, "If the Lord wills, I will do this or that" - simply because you do not know whether you will or not. It is presumption and pride to do otherwise. True, you can control what you do to some extent, but you cannot control the things around you.

2: Notice that some here, including myself, do not back the idea that we should stone people for making a false prediction. The Old Testament, which is God's law, did state that a prophet should be stoned for leading people off to other gods, and surely you can understand why this would be - consider it from the Christian's perpective: If the God of the Bible is the only way to eternal life and happiness, and every other way leads to death and destruction, then would it not be a serious offense to lead people to death and destruction? Thus, the law was established.

3: We are not living under the O.T. law now - we are governed by the laws of the United States and according to the scriptures, are to obey those laws - thus, this is a theoretical discussion based on what a person deserves according to God's law - a much more effective system than what we are living under - not what we will do to them if they make a mistake.

robert bright

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 13, 2000.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

...the person who is a true and obedient believer in Jesus Christ will say, "If the Lord wills...

If everyone did this the unbeliever would stick out like a sore thumb; all the easier for the clergy or other zealous practitioner to identify and eliminate.

It is presumption and pride to do otherwise.

And, as you pointed out, you really should throw any such presumptive "sinner" a rock party if you can all swing it.

An obvious capital crime in your mind would be ...leading people off to other gods...

...such as mammon? This

... leads to death and destruction...

...not to mention paltry collection plates.

We are not living under the O.T. law now - we are governed by the laws of the United States and according to the scriptures, are to obey those laws ...

So, then we would definitely have something to fear if there were a breakdown in civil government.

...thus, this is a theoretical discussion based on what a person deserves according to God's law - a much more effective system than what we are living under - what we will do to them if they make a mistake.

If I understand you correctly, here you're saying that you see yourself as the stonor, rather than as the stonee. Some people believe one has to say "thus saith the lord" for the penalty to stick. Obviously, some people don't think that way.

I have to thank you. You've finally managed to teach me something that several other posters and I have been puzzling over, across several threads. Whether we buy into your belief system or not, those of us who were raised in a western culture have probably been at least somewhat contaminated by this bizarre idea that making a false prediction (as defined by whoever happens to be around) merits a painful death, if only symbolically.

Wow! That's kind of enticing. Is it time for your annual church membership drive? This culture is one sick puppy, and you're not helping matters.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), January 13, 2000.

However, if we are to interpret Hebrews 1 so narrowly as you are perhaps suggesting, then it would have been heresy for any of the "inspired" new testament books following the gospels to be written much less to be regarded as inspired in the wake of the crucifiction and ascension. But God has always worked through people and I suspect He always will. -sdb

I'm not sure you are clear on the writing of the NT sdb. The writings of the NT were written by the Apostles. There are many many writings from the first and second century written by prophets and others and pseudo apostles. But the only writings allowed into the NT were those of the Apostles and those like Luke who was connected to Paul.

Furthermore, you say the epistles were written after the gospels. The truth is that the gospels were written after the episles or contemporarily with them! Look in your study Bible for the supposed dates.

The prophets are subject to the spirit of other prophets and all prophets are subject to the apostolic authority. Hebrews one states that God has spoken His last word to this world in Jesus Christ. This refers to doctrine, truth and the way of salvation. It also means that the prophets cannot contradict or go beyond the NT. I do believe that God continues to make revelations and give visions and dreams. What I am concerned about is that a Christian not go to one extreme or the other. Some are too quick to listen to any supposed prophecy or revelation. Others won't listen at all. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I listen to prophecy as I hold it to the light of the gospel and NT. I do not despise it and hold onto that which is good.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), January 13, 2000.

.....As promised, and I apologize that it has taken me so long to shake free, I really wanted to reply last evening. I apologize as well if this becomes a lengthy response, but this is the deepest of subjects.

Robert...

.....I am fairly certain that your heart is in the right place, I commend your courage in posting a message of this nature. If you have any questions after reading below, please feel free.

tt...

.....Its nice to see youve begun using a capital G when writing the term God. I did admonish you in regards to that some time ago, but dont know if you saw it. I hope your question will be answered below as well.

BigDog...

.....Hello, again. I always enjoy your posts on this topic, and wish I had gotten in on the thread with eve before it got so long. You express concern about mans ability to date the actual overtaking by judgement of America, you are quite correct, but we are able to discern the times and the seasons, (and weve been under judgement for quite some time now). As far as the dream issue is concerned, you were correct as well, but Blue Hawk nailed it when he said that dreams are solely for the dreamer to interpret.

Dancr...

.....Hello to you as well; I hope youre still interested in this thread, as Ive included something below, that may very well interest you, regarding that which Ive seen you concern about in the past, and again on this thread. I would be very interested in your comments, as this is truly what the Scripture says to that issue.

Which brings me once again to S. David Bays...

.....How are you, sir? Most of the questions should be covered in this response, although I doubt that youll find that it aligns with your doctrine, not to say that it fails to align with Scripture.

.....As I opened the concordance last night to prepare a list of passages, I started down the list of the word face as I knew this would lead me to where the Scripture says I have hidden, turned away, etc. my face. I also turned to the words withdrawn and withdrew for mention of the withdrawn hand of God. What I realized when I did is that the Scripture is so replete with references to this effect that Im amazed that I found myself responding to such a challenge, as I dont see how they could be missed. Do a word study of those words, and Im sure youll find plenty of examples. 1 Corinthians 10 tells us these thinks are ensamples for our edification, that we may learn. I dont typically throw verses around like the Jack Van Impes of the world, lest I be tagged as a Scripture lawyer as well. The man can throw out verse after verse, all day long; but it does no good if he has none understanding. In fact, sdb, you gave an example yourself when you quoted John 14:19-21... The world will see me no more. Are we not the world?

.....The term prophet is the word 5030 in the Hebrew, (from Strongs Exhaustive Concordance), derived from 5012. While there is mention of predictions, the context I understand a modernday prophet to be predicting from, is as BB says above, strictly from The Book.

.....sdb, the quotes that you used are all speaking to that former rain that BB addresses above, there are those youve spoken of being called, but many are called and few are chosen. This also ties in to Servants remark of free will, which not all have. Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 speak of predestination. Did Saul have free will after he was throw to his face and told to see Annaniahs and to discover that which he would suffer for My Names sake? Obviously not. There is a latter rain coming, as BB so posted, however, we have yet to achieve that point in prophecy. This is when the old men will dream dreams and the young men will see visions.

.....To deal with the death sentence for false prophets issue, this is an historical reference, but not valid for today in the sense that we are to do such things, as we were made to question by Roberts lengthy first response to his own thread. The parable of the tares tells us that it will not be by our hand that the tares shall be rooted up, but by His. We are also admonished to take extreme care in all dealings with man, (again, ish, as in mankind), as we may be entertaining angels unawares and will know not when we are in their presence. I would say that that this pretty well puts the issue of actions harming another to rest. Let us use the golden rule instead; Ive found that it has served me very well in my life. As an aside to Robert, I really dont believe that Peter, Petra was quite foolish enough do presume to prophesy unto Christ Himself, do you?

.....sdb, on a personal note, a while back you had posted a response to something I had said, and before I could even reply, you reposted an apology for your condescending tone; yet I somewhat detect that same tone in this post. Might I remind you, sir; that I do have you at a distinct disadvantage. Ive been to cuttingedge and seen first- hand that which you teach. If I recall, you have a section that deals with the rapture doctrine. Are you aware of where this abominable teaching originated? Do you not know that it was derived from the ramblings of a mentally unstable woman on her deathbed, and at the time she told those around her that it was an evil vision? There is a book to document these facts called The Incredible Coverup by one David MacPherson. It can be found if you are of the mind. And in reference to this teaching the same chapter comes to mind... Ezekiel 13 speaks directly to todays prophets. as it brings the context into focus in verse 5, as being to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord. God is NOT happy with the modernday prophets of Israel who prophesy from their own spirit and have seen nothing! Read it for yourself, I assure you it is there. Here is where God deals with this so-called rapture. In verse 20 where pillows are sown to the armholes, (Hebrew idiom meaning to hide the hand of God), and it speaks to the hunting of souls to make them fly. Pure and utter deception, which the Scripture so warns against.

.....I dont abide by such deception any more than I do the abominable Easter fertility rites that is practiced in most beth- avens, (supposed to be bethel), of this day. Jeremiah 44 speaks to this queen of heaven offering of drinks and cakes, and on the Passover Lambs day, no less! If in fact you are caught up in any of these things you need to come out, and repent. The whole world has gone to Babylon. Get on your knees and ask for that wisdom that can only come from God, ask for that understanding that only He can give; while youre down there, you may as well trouble Him for a little strength so that you might just bear up under the strain, (to increase knowledge is to increase sorrow, recall), because this knowledge of the Word will rend your heart, as again, BB posted. Again I would admonish you, sdb, that any man that thinks he knows something, (Scriptural), he knows it not as he should. I believe this the most vehement warning against allowing oneself to lean toward that condescending tone you seem to be so fond of.

.....I find many scoffers in these days, just as Peter said I would, but I submit to you that the true scoffers are in the church. As a voice in the wilderness, I cry aloud and spare not, face to face with the most ardent of them; quite the burden, wouldnt you agree?

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), January 13, 2000.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

To deal with the death sentence for false prophets issue, this is an historical reference, but not valid for today...

Patrick, I would accept your word that you don't follow this doctrine, although I find it hard to know just which of the tenants are supposed to be followed and which are not. The people who alarm me are the ones who, as the original poster on this thread has done, seem to believe that this portion of scripture is something that they would follow, if the opportunity to do so should present itself.

It seemed to me worthwhile to pull into bold relief what they had said. Sometimes people's eyes glaze over when they hear quotations from the bible, and they do not actually listen to what is being said. I believe that there are many people who are not aware of this passage, and many more who are not aware that there are actually modern day people who would choose to follow it literally.

To the extent that there is any possibility of a breakdown in civil government, it is wise to be aware of the existence of such people no matter what your own personal beliefs may be. Discretion may be the tool of choice for this situation.

It's not clear to me what the motivation is behind their placing that material on this forum. Is it supposed to serve as a warning? If so, to whom? And why is it being brought out at this time? Is this an attempt at intimidation by someone who is unknown to us? Is there some reason why it is important for us to be motivated to keep quiet?

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), January 13, 2000.

Patrick said: "sdb, you gave an example yourself when you quoted John 14:19-21..."

Thank you. I'll take that. (He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.") This is what I strive for and hope that you do as well.

Patrick said: "The world will see me no more. Are we not the world?"

No, Patrick. Hopefully not you either. I am not the world. I belong to Jesus. The world has rejected Jesus. The church, or the body of Christ, is not the world. Are you argueing with the Lord Himself when, in John 16:13, He says that "He (the Spirit of Truth) will tell you things to come".

Patrick said: ".....The term prophet is the word 5030 in the Hebrew, (from Strongs Exhaustive Concordance), derived from 5012. While there is mention of predictions, the context I understand a modernday prophet to be predicting from, is as BB says above, strictly from The Book."

I don't think that it is my role to go about "predicting" as you say. But to speak from what God has revealed. If God has not given dates (and God rarely does) then don't give dates. I prefer to state the dream or vision just as it occurred and give the listener or reader the opportunity to judge.

Patrick said: ".....sdb, the quotes that you used are all speaking to that former rain that BB addresses above,"

Huh? Please tell me where it is written that that the 1st century church is the "former rain". I think you are creating your own doctrine out of thin air. Relegating all the verses (by Paul to the church) relating to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, prophecies and the holy spirit showing us things to come to the "former rain" is pure intellectual laziness and sloppy biblical discernment. Come on guys. You can do better than that.

Patrick said: "There is a latter rain coming, as BB so posted, however, we have yet to achieve that point in prophecy. This is when the old men will dream dreams and the young men will see visions." and "There is a latter rain coming, as BB so posted, however, we have yet to achieve that point in prophecy

This may or may not be true. I believe we are there but I'm not going to fight over this. Neither you nor BB can prove that we are not there or entering that period. I have seen the pillars of smoke and fire (in our near future) that Joel refers to. But what's the point in clawing away at one another over it? What is true is this. We serve a merciful God, bounding in love, and that when He is about to judge a nation He will send many warnings. Warnings to repent and to turn back to Him or else Judgement will ensue. As we see in the bible, God's judgments begin light and gradualy ratchet up to strong as He tries to get the attention of a nation. Hense this verse: Amos 3:7&8. "Surely the Lord God will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. The lion hat roared, who will not fear? the Lord God hath spoken, who can but prophesy?" In your discussion of "withdrawn" and "withdrew" (above)as in "withdrawn hand of God" perhaps that is what God is warning this nation of through prophetic dreams and visions.

Patrick said: "sdb, on a personal note, a while back you had posted a response to something I had said, and before I could even reply, you reposted an apology for your condescending tone;"

(We both had several replies at that point, if I recall.) Yes I did and was somewhat disappointed in your refusal to join me in taking the discussion tone down a few notches. I thought that I would take the lead in that respect but now you are going to throw it back in my face. That's mighty big of you.

Patrick said: "Might I remind you, sir; that I do have you at a distinct disadvantage. Ive been to cuttingedge and seen first- hand that which you teach. If I recall, you have a section that deals with the rapture doctrine. Are you aware of where this abominable teaching originated?"....."Ive been to cuttingedge and seen first- hand that which you teach. If I recall, you have a section that deals with the rapture doctrine."

Sorry Patrick but you must be confused. (Are we on another topic?) I do not teach the "pre-trib rapture" doctrine if that is what you are hinting at. Never have. Never will. I teach that it is a false doctrine not to be found anywhere in the bible. By the way, I have no web page and don't know what in the world you are talking about. You must have me confused with someone else.

Patrick said: "Do you not know that it was derived from the ramblings of a mentally unstable woman".

Yes Patrick, I know that.

Patrick said: "God is NOT happy with the modernday prophets of Israel who prophesy from their own spirit and have seen nothing!"

Yes Patrick. But what if the prophet HAS seen something. Does he bury his gift as in the parable of the talents? What if the Lord HAS appeared to me? Do I bury this in the dirt as you suggest that I do? Are you going to deny this prophecy before our brothers and sisters in Christ? If you are then you are acting every bit like the pharisees who scratched and clawed at our Lord trying to catch Him in some little technicality.

Patrick my friend, are we not off point on "Easter" fertility rites and such.

Patrick said: "I believe this the most vehement warning against allowing oneself to lean toward that condescending tone you seem to be so fond of."

It has been Patrick attacking sdb nonstop here. I haven't even addressed Patrick. Patrick took it upon himself to address me and accuse me of condescension. Why don't you be more specific. But is this the pot calling the kettle black?

Patrick said: ".....I find many scoffers in these days, just as Peter said I would, but I submit to you that the true scoffers are in the church. As a voice in the wilderness, I cry aloud and spare not, face to face with the most ardent of them; quite the burden, wouldnt you agree?"

My dear friend, I agree whole heartedly with that statement. The most profound thing you have said all day.

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), January 14, 2000.

BB said: "Hebrews one states that God has spoken His last word to this world in Jesus Christ. This refers to doctrine, truth and the way of salvation. It also means that the prophets cannot contradict or go beyond the NT."

Amen. I agree. But that is not how you put it earlier. You were using this to deny that God speaks through dreams and visions in this day and age.

Yes, BB, although I have much to learn biblically, I do understand the NT. Your point was a little to the left of topic. My point was that your take on Jesus being the last Word and statement of God to the world (see Hebrews) had nothing to do with prophecy or whether or not God still intervenes in the affairs of man through dreams and vision. My contention is that He still does and that Hebrews does not prove your point that He doesn't.

sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), January 14, 2000.

As far as dating events thru revelation, I find it strange that some here have critisized the lack of "timing" in the dreams and others have stated that exact timing for anything is more or less not available from God. As far as what the scripture says on the subject, I quote Matthew 24:36, 42

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. . . Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.."

ALSO see: Mark 13:32-37

Guys and Ladies - the day and hour of the return of Christ is the ONLY thing which we are explicitly prohibited from knowing - there is no scriptural prohibition from knowing EXACT timing on any other issue - if you believe and receive. And, we can even know the season of Christ's return. As was previously noted in one of my posts, Daniel was given EXACT timing concerning the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem to Messiah the king - TO THE DAY. And as I'm pretty sure I previously mentioned, SIX people in my assembly were given the exact time, to the minute, of the top of the Bull market prior to the crash of '87. So, the Lord, through us, has proven that it is still happening.

As far as interpretors of dreams, yes - it is good for a person to interpret their own. But, is it not possible that a prophet or "seer" could interpret someone else's dream?? Yes, it is - Daniel did it often, and Joseph - and I've never really considered Joseph a prophet in the strictest sense of the word. Thus, we have a "dream interpretor" in our assembly - to assist people, by the spirit, in interpreting their dreams.

Patrick: As far as Peter's "prophecy", my point is that Peter spoke from his flesh of a future event - this is a "prophecy" of sorts, even if he didn't intend it to be so. Did what he spoke come to pass?? no. Was he REBUKED for saying it?? YES.

A personal story on that note: I was watching a football game about three years ago - Dallas and Philadelphia. The game was all wrapped up - all Philly had to do was hit a 20 yard field goal to win. There was three seconds left. I said, to me pastor and father, "Well, Philly's going to win." Well, the kicker missed and my pastor proceeded to reprove me for "false prophecy". I spoke from the flesh - predicting a future event, and I had no revelation of such event. I agreed and accepted the reproof - I ought not say such things according to the various scriptures I've already posted. It is pride and presumption, and as Yogi Berra said, "It's not over till its over."

Finally, to make things CLEAR to "dancr" and other. First, I would prefer to live under OT law as opposed to our present US governmental system. Our US system is messed up and ineffective at preventing crime and encouraging obedience - and I know first hand, having graduated law school and worked in the legal field. Whether you believe it or not, the OT Law was given by God, and is therefore the best system for achieving the maximum good and the least crime, etc . . . (note here that I am not refering to the New Covenant of the New Testament here at all - merely the "legal system of government" as stated in the OT).

However, I AM NOT in favor of stoning prophets for making a mistake - in any situation. Neither is the OT or the NT. Were I living under God's PERFECT LAW 3000 years ago, I would consent to and apply the penalties AS GIVEN IN THE SCRIPTURES. Period.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15

"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me . . ." John 14:21

". . . if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments . . ." (reply) 'Which ones?' . . . (Jesus answers) "You shall not murder . . . commit adultery . . . steal . . . bear false witness. . . honor father and mother . . . love neighbor as self." Matthew 19:17-19

Hmmm . . . These are from the mouth of Jesus and are OT commandments.

"And they were judged, each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS." Revelation 20:13

How then are we saved? By Faith - because no one can keep the commandments perfectly without faith in Christ.

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 14, 2000.

Robert Bright: thank you for your posting and comments here on this thread. I have enjoyed your insights. Thank you and may the Lord shine His peace on you and all your house. ...sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), January 14, 2000.

Yes, Daniel was given a great time prophecy. So was Jeremiah (the 70 years). In both instances the year was known but the EXACT day. And even scholars and commentators are disagreed on the year in BOTH of the above mentioned prophecies! But lets not quibble over that. These two great time prophecies did have an exact end because they were time prophecies. Those who lived then knew exactly when they started and ended. However, when we get to the NT, I find no exact time prophecies. I find a change in the authority of the prophet. Where the Prophet in the OT spoke in the name of the LORD, now in the NT, it is the Apostles who speak in the name of the LORD.

I have a hard time believing God is interested in telling us when the bull market is at its high and ready to fall. Doesn't mean I don't believe He did that for your assembly. From afar, I reserve the right to remain skeptical. I hear Christians like David Wilkerson predicting a market, economic collapse. I believe that because God has put it into my heart. Mammon is going down and going down hard. I don't need to know the exact day so I can get out at the top and make my bundle. I doubt God is interested in helping me beat the market. That is my humble opinion.

sdb...we agree esentially. I was only making sure that the tension between modern day prophecy and the revelation we have in Christ and the NT be acknowledged. My quoting of Joel reveals I believe the the gift and spirit of prophecy remains in the church. There is an excellent book just out by John Bevere, entitled, "Thus saith the Lord". (See Amazon.com). An excellent primer on modern day prophecy. A must read.

I am proud of the spirit and love here on this thread. Good people can and do disagree. This is probably more important thant who is right or wrong on this issue imho. Blessings.

-- BB (peace2u@bellatlantic.net), January 14, 2000.

BB:

Were the OT followers of God given the authority to plunder the land?? Which is "harder to say/do" Go kill every man woman and child of the enemy, as they were sometimes commanded in the OT, or to receive a monetary blessing from the Lord because He chooses to give it to you when the economy is going under?? If the opportunity is there, why not take it? Our dreams and revelations about calamities coming on America, and direction concerning the stock market crash of '87 came without our asking for it. Thru all this, the Lord promised our assembly several things, and as we receive them, we intend to bless and feed the poor and preach the gospel. People will be more interested in the Lord during hard times.

I quote you: "I find a change in the authority of the prophet. Where the prophet in the OT spoke in the name of the LORD, now in the NT, it is the Apostles who speak in the name of the LORD."

So, according to that statement, prophets today do not speak from the NAME of the Lord?? Do they speak from themselves? From Satan?

Apparently God is not interested in helping you "beat the market", because you are not interested in it. He gives wisdom liberally, and if you want to get out before it crashes, then he'll tell you. Is God interested in blessing His people in the midst of cursing for others? Actually, is God interested in blessing His people at all times? Would it necessarily be sinful to invest in the stock market? If God gave you revelation and said, "Invest when I tell you, and you will be blessed", would/should you do it??

The revelation we have in Christ and the NT and the OT, for that matter is THE WORD OF GOD - it is sure - a more sure word of prophecy. There is no quibble over that here. The point of the initial post and everything that followed from me is to get people thinking and refute the lies of many denominations - that God does not speak to His people through dreams, visions, prophecy, healings, etc . . . anymore. A final thought:

"Now I plead with you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgment." I Corinthians 1:10

Does this still apply today, or is it bets to "agree to disagree?"

-- robert bright (roosterbos@go.com), January 14, 2000.

"It has been Patrick attacking sdb nonstop here. I haven't even addressed Patrick."

sdb...

.....I would call the below an "address."

"Patrick you do err. I thought I dealt with this in another post a week or so ago but here it is again.

.....I apologize for my obvious misunderstanding of your site in regards to the "rapture" doctrine. I must have confused you with someone else, please forgive me. However, I don't believe that what I addressed to you could be characterized as an "attack" at all. That certainly wasn't the spirit with which I spoke. I realize that many people disagree on proper understanding of Scripture, and I realize also that the whole world is currently in deception.

.....Perhaps we are closer to each other, doctrinally, than I had previously believed, perhaps not. We may very well be entering that period of the "latter rain" and events could very well begin to unfold rather quickly. At any rate, sdb, I certainly don't wish you anything but the best, and when I get a bit more time on my hands, I may be able to furhter elaborate my position.

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), January 14, 2000.

BB: Yes, we agree on much if not most. I have greatly enjoyed your posts over the last year or so. I thank you for your comments here.

Patrick: I could be wrong but I suspect that you and I are very much alike. Hope that doesn't affend you. I see you as a brother in Christ and I pray the protection and blessings of our Lord on you and all your house. ...sdb

-- S. David Bays (SDBAYS@prodigy.net), January 15, 2000.

I must be doing something wrong because I am writing to pose a question rather than an answer. I just read some of your stuff and find it refreshing that somebody besides myself is questioning the validity of most of the prophetic words that are being put out.I have been reading and grieving about most of the prophetic messages. Now would you believe had words spoken in my spirit at 2:30 AM while sound asleep two nights ago. The words were "waiting will be over this September" Now I don't know if that be of God or the devil, but it sure woke me up. I wrote it down and went be to sleep.

-- Ronald Englehardt (ronenglehardt@aol.com), June 11, 2002.