A Kelly -- In another thread you stated: "The Disciples have fought enternally for years. One issue that they have been arguing over is the name change of God to Sophia- which is antibiblical and is a compromise that will destroy that denomination."

Could you, or anyone else, elaborate on this for me?

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999

Answers

Brother Kelley......

As far as the Bible is concerned, these have been "the last days" ever since Jesus walked the earth.

As per the chip.....at least I wouldn't have to worry about where my wallet was anymore.

LOL!!!

-- Anonymous, December 22, 1999

Brother Kelley......

Your dispensational premillenial comic book interpretation of biblical prophecy is what is "dead wrong."

It not only lacks scholarship...but it also lacks historical backing.

I challenge you......find anywhere previous to the 1600's (when dispensational premillenialism began) that teaches that tenets of D.P. Dispensationalism comes along way to long after the first century for me to accept.

Wasn't Hal Lindsey enough to convince you to rethink your beliefs?? Remember "The Late Great Planet Earth??"

Every single prediction Lindsey made in the 70's failed. Every single one!!!

Remember...."88 Reasons Why the Rapture is Going to Occur in 1988?"

We're still here and the guy that wrote the book is living in a million dollar ranch house in Tennessee going....."Suckers!!!" (By the way....he bought the ranch house in August of 1988.....hmmmm....he said the rapture would occur in October.)

Remember, the Iraqui war was the beginnning of the rebuilding of Bablylon??

Interestingly, these guys make mistakes and keep writing books and the intellectually lazy keep buying them.

Interestingly, in the Old Testament, one wrong prediction and a prophet was stoned!!!

I would refer you to the Apostle Paul in 1 Thess. 5:1-2...."As to the time and the seasons, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night."

Which means Mr. Kelley.....there are NO SIGNS OF THE TIMES.

Let me share with you wise words I once heard...."The unforseeable future.......has a way of becoming the undeniable past."

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Brother Kelley....

No hard feelings....but you still have not answered my question....i.e., historical evidence that dispensationalism and its tenets were taught by anyone previous to the 17 century??

As per misinterpreting 1 Thess. 5.....hardly.....they were not in the dark....and neither are we....because.....we expect the Lord's return at any time.

Could be today......probably will not be Jan. 1st...ha......could be another 5000 years!!!!

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Do you all hear that??? It's the theme music to....."THE TWILIGHT ZONE".....Dodododdododododododoodoodododo!

(Finger is currently at back of throat to produce the "gag" reflex.)

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2000

Dodododododododododododododododododoodo

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2000

Genesa....

If I wasn't on vacation busy killing animals (deer hunting)....I'd take time to answer you more fully....or maybe not.

However, if you were familiar enough with the N.T. you would see that Jesus used sarcasm on a regular basis.

It's a wonderful tool to cut through the foolisness straight to the truth, and that is exactly what I consider your ramblings (and Nelta's which makes me want to drink a Coke and sing "I'd like to teach the world to sing.." (Come on everybody!!!)..."In perfect harmony."

The "Gosel" you are advcoating is not the faith we are told to "contend" (Greek is literally "brawl") for (Jude 6)....but rather a syrupy sweet concept of utopia that doesn't have the consistency of yesterdays oatmeal.

When you are ready to seriously consider the N.T.....and allow it to be the inspired, inerrant, word of God....then post a question that we can reason together with out of the Word.

My guess is, if you are anything like Nelta, you never will take the Word seriously but go on your own "feelings."

To this day there are questions I, and others, have asked that she refuses to answer. She is a typical neo-orthodox.

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2000

Genesa.....

It is Jude 3......"contend (Gr. is literally..."brawl" such as would be done in a sweaty gymnasium)....for the faith "ONCE" delivered."

-- Anonymous, January 05, 2000

Brother Kelley....

I don't know what Gilda is....but I can tell you what she is not.....a committed Christian.

That is, unless these words of Jesus mean nothing...."you can tell the tree by the fruit it bears."

Gotta run.....I got deer to skin and put in the freezer.

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2000

Actually Genesa.....

You and I....and my wife....are probably very close on a number of things.

We both have a basic distrust of modern medicine. Our last child was born at home through a mid-wife. After the birth, she and the baby soaked in an herbal bath. My wife healed faster than our previous two children.....and the cord fell of the baby in less than two days with absolutely no bleeding.

We constantly seek herbal remedies to whatever illnesses we have.

"Natural" has come to be a bad word.....but in essense, if we think about it.....natural simply means..."God designed" i.e., the way it was.

I have no problem with herbal remedies and alternative medicines. My problem come in, when people see them as a way of "finding oneness with the universe."

That it where the "New Age" baloney comes in that takes away the truth of Scripture that there is only one way to spiritual oneness with the Father.....and that is through Christ.

As far as the hunting remarks.....I really don't care what lifestyle you have chosen....i.e., vegetarian, etc......but I personally am sick and tired of "animal rights" people forcing their ridiculous, ungrounded in truth, agenda down the throats of the American people.

I'm not accusing you of that.....I'm simply trying to explain my sometimes "overreaction" to what I perceive to be overtones that concern me.

I too love animals....fried, broiled, baked, etc....and I find it to be perfectly in line with the Bible.

Thanks for some clarification.

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

The Disciples OF Christ have been involved in the WCC (World Council of CHurches) which is an eccumenical movement to unite all evangelical churches. In 1993 the eccumenical churches came together for a Re-imaging 1993 conference to debate the issue to re name God to Sophia- who is the goddess of Wisdom and Understanding. From what I gather from my research Sophia is promoted and worshipped by New Agers as being the supreme god who leads all humans to a greater consciousness of oneself. She is the mirrored god of all religions. In fact the URO (United Regious Organization) is working to this end to unite all religions as being equal and Sophia is that key. Soon, the United Nations will unveil the URO as the forerunner of the one world church. The worship of Sophia is the first of many things that will come in play into the one World Government.

Although not much is said in the offical websight of the Disciples of Christ on Sophia- they are at the meetings of the URO and WCC. One interesting insight that their web site will give you is their use of "imagining" and "visioning" as part of their counseling techniques. This is the same language that New Agers use to describe what they do to become one with the cosmos. As I see it, there is a big shift toward liberalism and the New Age in our movement. The arm of the clock has been swinging in that direction for some time. For example the Disciples of Christ (I was told by a professor in College) passed out condomns during a National Convention in the early to mid 90's... is this a way to present safe sex? I say all this to show you that this topic goes to an evil core that is more than just being friendly to other faiths.

-- Anonymous, December 18, 1999

This Sophia thing sounds too much like one of those "urban myths", not too unlike the one about Janet Reno testifying before Congress, giving a profile of the potential religious extremist terrorist that sounded identically like what you would expect from a dedicated Christian, e.g. committed to God, reads Bible daily and believes it to be the literal word of God.

Is there proof somewhere? I went looking, using the best internet search engines, even going to the U.N. website, and I could find nothing remotely resembling the setup of an URO. Can anyone independently verify this?

-- Anonymous, December 21, 1999

I dug a little further, and found Sophia mentioned under "cults" at about.com. I can still find nothing on the URO thing.

It seems that the 90s are the "Ecumenical Decade for Churches in Solidarity With Women". A part of this is something called the "Re-imagining Conferences". One of these was in 1993, the other in 1998. The thrust seems to be to try to "re-imagine" Christianity in a more feminist friendly form.

The reports I found seem to indicate that there was a lot of backlash against those who went. The 1993 conference had been co-sponsored by a lot of denominations, by 1998 only the United Church of Christ was still a sponsor. The 1998 conference sounds like, without the participation of a lot of Christian denominations, that it went overboard in raising up Sophia as a god.

Some appear to trying to re-imagine God as Sophia, others are trying to add Sophia to the trinity. The "christian Sophia" is taken from the Old Testament, where wisdom is given human qualities (think Proverbs and all the desciptions of wisdom as a "she").

Here are some of the websites I found: a pro-Sophia site -- report of the conferences from a supporter http://dfms.org/women/reimage.html

A cult watch page, Sophia seems to be the center of an emerging cult, as well as a New Age goddess: http://www.watchman.org/sophia.htm http://www.watchman.org/changgod.htm

Good News Magazine apparently investigated the 1993 conference. The United Methodist Women's Division deputy director responded: http://www.goodnewsmag.org/library/articles/sohl-ma94.htm

Some mainline reaction reported by the same magazine: http://www.goodnewsmag.org/library/articles/cyre-ma94.htm

So it seems that the Sophia thing is the product of extremist feminist, and is widely opposed due to the heresy and paganistic nature of the whole thing.

-- Anonymous, December 21, 1999

Mark, the Sophia issue is the first of many to infiltrate the Church. In fact it will get worse until the Lord comes for His Church... here is some interesting reading on the UR www.watch.pair.com/ur.html - this is some interesting reading about the UR. If you do not believe the things about the one world government- well, the only thing I can say is that it is unfolding before our eyes each and every day. Much of it is already here and in place just ready for it to take place. For example I read in the news(NSNBC) that scientist have invented a chip that goes under your skin. This chip is an innovation for e- solutions network that will help you with financal transactions.But it will eventually be more. I am not a prophecy freak- but I am seeing it unfold every day. Soon, we will not be able to buy or sell, or run or hide. If our government can keep track of every animal through this chip, then surely every human will be keep under control... sound fictional? Not so fictional... just watch and wait. Every thing is moving closer to the Lord's glorious return. Amen!

-- Anonymous, December 22, 1999

Most likely the digital e-chip could be the forerunner of the mark. For sure I would not allow anyone to place a chip on or in me to restrict my personal freedom. I personally know through a source, who has a high security level with the government, that the government is working on this very issue right now. It is not a scary fictional plot by those big on prophecy... it is reality and is coming soon. Those who say the mark of the beast is symbolism... are dead wrong.

-- Anonymous, December 22, 1999

Danny, I do not want to get into a theological agrument with you, but I do wish to say that you misinterpret I Thess 5:1-2, to refer that no one will ever know when Christ will come. Sure we will not know the day or the hour, but as PAUL says, "But, you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief..." I Thess 5:4. That means yes to the world it will be an aweful surprising time but to us (Christians) it will be a time we have been ready and waiting for. Jesus said even that in Matthew 24:36-51 that the day of His coming will be like in the days of Noah. In otherwords we will know the times! Noah, knew that when he built the Ark that the rains would come... he did not know the hour the exact minute or perhaps the day. But, he knew it was coming when it was finished and the animals were entering the Ark.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. I believe it and I will continue to preach and teach to the congregation in which I serve. So too often our churches are blind to what is happening around us. We sit by idle and complacient to God's fulfillment of prophecy, just because we were spoon feed what we believe in college. I once thought as you when I first entered into Bible College- but I learned to think and reason for myself. I believe God's word and I believe that it is still unfolding today. I could show you many prophecies that have come to fulfillment in our life time, but you would not listen- but you would try to explain them away.

So, Danny do you have any real things to say about the topic of this thread or is it more nitpicking?

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Sorry Danny I did not mean to say "nitpicking". It was a bad choice of words. Please forgive me.

-- Anonymous, December 23, 1999

Danny you are right about that the Lord could come back at anytime- true- He could come back as I am typing this. Yes, people do get on a kick about prophecy when periless times are occuring (such as the 1988 or secret Bible codes, etc). But, just because some have made false predictions does not mean that the whole barrel is bad. Yes, I feel the premil. view is at least more plausable than the pretorist or historical view. Too much has happened in resent history to discount it. Could it be that, as time went on after 1600, God has revealed through man that the Lord is coming soon? Your reasoning that just because people have always cried wolf that the wolf will not come- does not fit. For example, God, has promised that Israel would always be a nation (time after time it is stated in the OT), now this could be symbolic of the church or it could be literal. For years theologians thought this was symbolic until 1948 when for the first time in 2,000 years Israel became a nation. In fact- she is one of THE most powerful nations in the world. The premil. view states that the antichrist will be revealed once he makes a seven year peace treaty with Israel (according to Daniel's timeline), now this was once thought that it would never happen. But, in recent times due to the Israelli and Palestinian peace talks- this is an easy reality on the verge of happening. What about a one world govenment or currency- this too is reality. Remember, Pres. Bush pushing for his new world order- which every pres. since Roosevelt has pushed. We now are controled as a nation by the United Nations- our troups are sent everywhere around the world, without congress's say so, just because the UN feels that it is necessary. THe one currency is unfolding before our eyes with the emergance of the Euro dollar. Soon Canada, US, and Mexico will have one too. Are we cashless? Yes, with the use of checks, direct deposit, online banking, credit, debit- we no longer need cash- unless you go to McDonalds or only want a coke. See, if this were all symbolic language for the first century church- then I think we are missing something. Yes, we must always concider what it mean to them first- but we cannot deny the universal truths that will be fulfilled right before the Lord returns. In many cases all you need is a newspaper in one hand and the Bible in the other to see the prophecies are coming true in our life time. Perhaps, the reason that some to be doomsday crazy is that we are 2,000 years closer to the Lord's return than the early church and the unfolding of events tend to make people histerical. The better approach is to pray that the Lord will use us for a great soul harvest before He does return. Thus no matter what happens we are busy doing the Lord's work rather than running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

Well, I have blabbed enough. Merry Christmas all. Love Anthony.

-- Anonymous, December 24, 1999

Mr. Kelly and Mr. Combs:

As it is Christmas Eve - I would like to get back to you on this, in the very near future. I do not always keep up on "what's going on" and know nothing of the Disciples wanting to change the name of God - to Sophia. Which, in my opinion - sounds silly BUT, Of course - no matter what you call "God" there is only The One. "It" still and always and constantly remains the Truth, the Light and the Same. However, I really dislike "generality" statements - "judgemental" - if you will, in reference to "paganistic" (or REFERENCING something as paganistic, I should say) and "New Age". As I understand the true meaning and "icon" (of Sophia) it is far from either. (However - I would appreciate YOUR definition of "new age") - to me it is idiotic to label something new age anymore, because there is so much that falls into that category - definitely some of it very undesirable, and also depending on who you are and what you think it means - it is ridiculous. I "used" to consider myself that - however - now it is such a hodge-podge of "off- the-wall" and even "un-Christian" "followers" that I refrain. Years ago, I met people who fell into the New Age category, I suppose, who were the best Christians I've ever known - and still are. I am simply a Truthseeker. I am definitely what I consider to be a Christian - I am a child of God and answer only to Him. I cannot call myself any one denomination though, as I feel there is a thread of truth strung throughout most. Of course, each one thinks they are THE ONE. And herein, lies the deception - as the bible states - Satan will be in the Church in the "end times" - (which could go on for - ???). Above I mentioned the word "paganistic" - reason being that "Sophia" is, as I said, far from it - it means "Wisdom" and originally is used with reference to Prov.3:13-18. I have no idea what direction certain specific "groups" have taken, "right" - "wrong" - "confused" - "misinterpreted" - "perpetrated" - "stretched out of proportion" - etc. As to New Age - well, an age is every 2000 years. We are obviously about to enter the next 2000 years (at the END of the year 2000). The term "Rapture" is not in the Bible - "a new age" is. Too bad the term has been so abused and misused though. And there is a lot of "wierdness" out there at this time - even, I am sorry to say, in some of the "Christian" churches that I have attended of late.

-- Anonymous, December 24, 1999

G. Wright, I had a hard time trying to gather where you are coming from, (as to your train of thought). Do you just have criticism toward the use of terminology or against the content of the thread? If you want to argue over the use of the "New Age" it is not a term that Christians have come up with to give labels. Try to go into any secular book store such as B Dalton or Barnes and Noble, and you will find sections entitled "New Age." Once you then, read some of the titles of the books within those sections you might get an idea of what the "New Age" would refer to. Titles will appear such as, "Channeling", "Astrology", "Self Helps" "Yoga" "Meditation and Chantings" "Inner light" "The Power Of Crystals" "Spirit Guides" etc. Most of those topics are considered part of the occult and are (in many cases) condemned in the Bible as such. If any of your friends are caught up in any of these, then you need to open up the scriptures with them and show them Jesus. What fellowship does the light have with darkness? You have a responsiblity to tell your friends, if they are caught in this, to stop. For if they continue then it will lead them to eternal damnation and separation from God.

Yes, you are correct that there is only one God, but God is not named Sophia, Allah, Buddah, or anything else other than the name Yahweh- who is the great I Am, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Any attempt to rename God is an attempt to fit Him into one's own personal liking and that will not do. God is intolerant toward those who cannot except Him or His Son Jesus the Christ. For there is only one way to ge to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ... Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life! Praise be Jesus now and forever more!

-- Anonymous, December 26, 1999

"It's hard to make predictions, especially about the future." - Yogi Berra

-- Anonymous, December 29, 1999

Hi genesa, I'm agree with you somewhat. I've known some really good New Age people and some really good Christians. But I've also known some of the meanest people on earth that call themselves Christians.

Anyway, I believe in a higher power--that is--certainly more than we can see here on earth. If I'm wrong, that's ok too, because I'm also a Scientific Pantheist who loves this beautiful planet. But I'm not sure what, or who God is. And I think one religion is just as valid as another, AKelly. Whomever my God is, he/she/it is a tolerant and loving God.

-- Anonymous, January 01, 2000

Sophia is from the Greek and means wisdom. "God" is just an English word for the Highest Power, the Ultimate, whatever you want to call the Creator of the Universe. If someone wants to call "God" by the name "Sophia" so what? If I was part of a church that declared "from now on, we will not say God, we will say Sophia," I'd probably leave that church because their emphasis is on what is not important. P.S. I have spent a couple hours in the past two days on these message boards and I am flabbergasted and shocked at how bizarre people are. I wish I didn't know. The world is now a scarier place! I'm not going to look on these things anymore. My life does fine without this silliness....

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2000

For those reading this thread and any other messages in this board... there is only ONE God and there is only ONE way to get to God. You cannot believe in anyone or anything else to get you into heaven other than the name of JESUS CHRIST! All people who believe that it does not matter who you call 'god' as long as you believe in a "higher power"- is just spiritual deception. THis thread and any other in this board for the "Christian Church.com" is dedicated to sharing, spreading, and discussing the good news of Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I for one, do not wish anyone ill feelings... but get this clear- there can be no salvation through any "god" that man has invented. You cannot be saved by channeling, staring into crystals, or saying a chant to Buddah. Sophia cannot save you... it is only the God of the Bible who gave us His Son Jesus Christ as a ransome for our sins that can save! Thus, there is no one throughout the entire universe that can save you from your souls other than JESUS the Christ. I will pray for all "New Agers" who happen to read this and for any person who has not received Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior- that they will find Jesus before it is too late.

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2000

Amen to that brother Kelley!

-- Anonymous, January 02, 2000

AKelly, thank you for your reply to my post of Dec. 24. Firstly, I must say that if I came across as "critical" - I meant not to - I suppose I can see how my remarks might have been taken that way. I was not criticizing the thread at all - I was amazed, myself, that someone would take it upon themselves to try to change the name of God! I would agree with one poster above - I'd probably seek out a different church also. I'm still rather unclear about how that would ever even be discussed by Christians!!?? Yes Yahweh, Yeshua, God, also sometimes referred to as Creator, Source - which He is. But as I mentioned before there is always only The One Truth - I am certainly not wishing for any argument here! (In fact, I know there is one certain scripture, that I have searched for for quite some time, about not arguing over "the Word". Can someone guide me to that one?I was thinking it was either in Proverbs or somewhere in the NT - but haven't been able to pinpoint it.)

Every since I was very small I have never had anything other than total acceptance of God and Jesus Christ - so don't get me wrong here! And anyone that I know (in reference to the term "new age" - ) do not any longer appreciate that term - so long ago, it didn't seem like a real big deal - there wasn't so much "darkness" associated with the term at that time - to our knowledge. The only reason it ever came up - with myself and with others at that time was because I believe in herbal forms of medication as opposed to synthetic ones - "health alternatives" if you will, that to me, are God's gifts to us that He would like us to use when we become ill. He has told us that He has already put everything here that we need. Unfortunately, in the area where I live some folks STILL are narrow-minded enough to call someone into "alternatives" "New Agers".

I write in our local paper about health alternatives, herbs, essential oils (which are mentioned in the Bible about 188 times) exercise, diet, etc., and I quote scripture regularly. I am also a certified and licensed massage therapist of 18 years and these more natural ways of healing are my life and I am forever greatful for being very Divinely led along this path.

And yes, I am familiar with those "New Age" sections in bookstores. You will (once in awhile) find some wonderful books in those sections - but they should obviously be put somewhere else in the store. Interestingly enough, I just read the thread title "From Chaos to Community" - I should say I scanned it - on my way to this page. I would love to attend Rev.Maxey's church if ever in NM! In his article he mentions Dr. M. Scott - Dr.Peck's "A Road Less Traveled" is one of those wonderful books you will find in the "New Age" section of some stores. I have also found some wonderful "self-help" books written by Christian ministers - IN THOSE SECTIONS. Strange. Maybe not - could be Divine! (As in intervention)

I have also written a short essay about fellowship of the light with the darkness - this was in response to a friend who thought that we always have to have "the darkness" to have the balance. My main point of the essay (which I sent to her) was that I felt this was a very depressing way to look at the outcome of the world. That Light would never overcome? Why do we pray for it to be on earth as in heaven? Final point being that the "darkness", the adversary, IS the imbalance. And what we're going for here - I hope - is complete balance - unconditional love. I hope by finally posting here (sorry I waited so long to get back!) that that is what we can have here on this page! (Smile) It seemed to be headed in a rather "defensive" direction. No one said anything about any "man-invented" "god", I don't believe, nor did any of us say anything about staring into crystals, chants to Buddha, or channelling. And I do not think that Jesus would have the same reactions to someone's "beliefs" as Mr.Gabbard did - to make fun?? And you, Mr. Kelly,I realize, were pointing those things out "just in case" - so no ill-intent taken.

Howeever, if one cannot stare into a sunrise or sunset, or into a dense pine forest high in the mountains and not feel the Presence of our Creator, the same as staring into a crystal or a piece of turquoise and feeling that same Presence, (....He has created every...rock...) then something is wrong somewhere. I am not talking about "using" crystals for "whatever". Crystals are dug out of the ground and are truly some of the most awsomely beautiful creations I've ever seen. Guess who made them? That's right. I have been in Arkansas and dug them out of the ground myself - I hope this does not make me a New Ager. Now it is true that "man" sometimes shapes these into specific shapes, I'm told, thinking they can be used for "healing" or whatever". These folks also use other stones for "healing" - ruby, garnet, emerald, diamond, jasper, turquoise, etc. etc., they come out of the ground - are found in "veins" - just as quartz (crystals). Does that mean you'd better get rid of your wife's wedding rings and any other jewelry either of you have that contains any precious or semi-precious stones? Of course not. To me, quartz "crystals" are some of God's most beautiful creations. You could also say that "witches" burn candles in their - whatever they do - so do we stop burning candles??? My point being - I hope you do not believe that crystals are "bad" - and only meant that idolizing or "worshiping" them, as opposed to God, is.

I would also like to clarify that in my last post at the end I referred to "Christian" churches - meaning the Christian Religion - NOT your denomination - Disciples of Christ. Just to be clear.

Back to Mr. Maxey's article posted by N. Brock. He refers to the fact that "secular leaders" have recognized the need for community, when, in fact, it should have been the Christians who should have taken the lead. (Though I know of some very well-and-long established Christian Communities). By the same token one "good ol' boy" told me one day - "well, I'll say this fer you New Agers [ack!! there it is again] - you got one up on them Christians by knowin' that the Good Lord put these here plants on His good green earth fer usin' fer medicines." So things do get "twisted" - as you can see by THAT remark - (meaning he was referring to me as a NA'er because I was buying organic herbs). He went on to say that he couldn't figure out why more Christians didn't use natural medicines because God shows us in his Word that that's what He wants. I DID agree with that.

I know I have gone on and on - but I did not want "dis-harmony" and an attitude of "defensiveness" nor "argumentativeness" to still be lurking in the "wings" here. May we all know God's Peace in the practice of Love and Understanding, Patience, Non-judgemental attitudes and may we always be given Perfect Discernment in knowing the Light from the darkness.

Three questions I ran across somewhere - in regard to knowing another and their beliefs - and how NOT to instill a spirit of fanatacism - to breed Love in relationships - not hatred.

1. Tell me what you believe so that I can believe it too. (this question is for the naive - who cannot discern the Truth)

2. Tell me what you belive so that I can tell you how wrong you are. (this one is for fighting)

3. Tell me what you believe so that I can get to know you better, and perhaps learn even deeper truths about myself. (this one is for becoming friends and SHARING your beliefs - once people are true friends one can help the other when he "walks out of balance" with God.)

-- Anonymous, January 04, 2000

Mr. Gabbard: My goodness! You know if I thought you could take a joke I would say "Are you on drugs???" But I don't think you would understand - it would only be a joke (I hope). Or I could say that since you're busy killing animals, perhaps you're drinking beer? Now see, that would probably be just as "not nice" and opinionated of me to say those things as it was of you to infer that I am just like "so-and-so" who, you say, won't take the Word seriously (no offense to her - I don't know her from Adam - or Eve) Yes I did "ramble on" - sorry - I just didn't want to be taken for something I wasn't, but I understand that you read that into it anyway - it's ok.

Well, I intend to make studying the Word a lifelong process - I am 58 now. How old are you? Not to take it serious?? Do you say that because I referred to the "Law" - the Commandments? I pray that I will ever continue to grow in the Word and perhaps I'm just not as far along as you.

After reading your post I prayed for some comforting words - loving words. I randomly opened to Romans - 12th and 13th chapters. I read both. I opened again just a few pages on past to 1 Corinthians 2 - the whole chapter, which I had previously marked pretty heavily. Then over to 1 Corinthians 4:1-5, also marked. I love when that happens! Then lastly to Philippians 4:7-8 - you know, Paul's version of "utopia"?

I am not the best at memorizing scripture - I can't always remember where "what" is - that's why my Bible's marked up a lot and I have notes to myself on the blank pages in the back, and notebooks that I keep referencing other verses, etc., when there's no room left in the back of my Bible.

But, yes I am very aware that Jesus used sarcasm in the NT - very constructive sarcasm - but I would not say he had a shallow and meaningless verbally abusive attitude, would you? He was, also, Jesus Christ.

I believe you must be referring to Jude 3 (not 6) and again the word "contend" is used in the 9th verse when the archangel Michael was contending with the devil and did not dare to bring "railing accusations" - in other words he was not accusatory, but only said (contended) "The Lord rebuke you." I have the King James Version and an Aramaic Bible (Jesus' language - though perhaps he was bilingual?) It doesn't seem they were "brawling" here though, does it, since the reference is to "accusations"? To strive in debate or controversy, argue, dispute - would seem to be what is meant here - and I believe this is the Aramaic translation.

I must say that if the questions asked, or perhaps I should say the way in which they were asked, created less than loving feelings being aimed in her direction, as I have experienced here, perhaps Nelta considered this a vexation to her Spirit - which Jesus tells us to go away from. I, myself, will probably make the decision not to come back here for that reason. I do not care to have my faith in the Most Holy made light of. And by folks who are supposed to be "brothers in the Lord"??!!

OK - I ramble no longer. Peace be to you, Mr. Gabbard - maybe you'll get your 12 pointer and be a happier man! And may you have a happy Y2K - which you probably already know means "Yield 2 King".

-- Anonymous, January 05, 2000

Genesa, Hello I would like to clarify something, if I could. I did not mean to come across to attack you as "staring into crystals" nor would I attack your faith (as you took offense to Danny). My point was to try to clarify what "New Age" means in light of today's occult use of the word. Geology is not in itself "bad". Nor do I consider horticulture or botany "bad" either, in fact I know several men in both feilds who are dedicated Christians. I say as Paul told the Colossians 3:17, "Whatever you do whether word or in deed , do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to the Father through Him."

But, I would like to warn you on some issues. There is nothing wrong in herbal remedies instead of perscription drugs to cure ills of the body. But, watch very carefully that your life is not consumed in the very spiritual aspect of herbs. For centuries witches and sorcers have used herbs to treat the ill, but also to cast spells upon people. The wiccans still practice this type of "witchcraft" today. And it is witchcraft. The Bible make it very clear that witchcraft is to be condemned and not allowed as a horrible sin. In fact, the term sorcery comes from the greek which is the word "pharmekia" where we get the word pharmacy from. The word means the use of herbs and drugs for witchcraft and conjuring of spirits. There is a real spiritual deception going on around the world today and many christians are being fooled, but the worship of "mother nature". For centuries, the American Indians have used drugs to talk with the spirit world and go on spirit walks to find their destiny. But, in reality it is witchcraft. Many people caught in the "New Age" will tell you that they believe in God, yet they also believe that herbs and crystals are given by God to give us powers. This is deception. Satan has douped them to believe in lies. Please be careful.

I am glad that you take care in giving people biblical reasons to take their vitamins and minerals... in fact we all would be better off if we all do take them. But, please do not confuse the issue of New Age theology and practice verses the uses of herbs and minerals for better health. In my mind, you need to be alert and ready to make sure what any of us do holds up to the Bible. For example, not everything that maybe healthy for us is good for the spirit. Pot, may be good as a pain killer, but it lowers our spiritual resistance to allow Satan's influence... that is why the Bible comends us to be sober at all times.

Take Care

-- Anonymous, January 05, 2000

Just a little verse for Mr. Gabbard, as I practice controlling my gag reflex at Mr. Gabbard's bragging about being "so busy killing animals on vacation."

This is from an old Tibetan song.

"The land where spiritual and human law reign supreme, In the land where celestial powers are revered, Where animals are partners in life's struggle, Where birds fly without fear, Where fish swim in freedom, Where wildlife is protected, Where men and women cherish inner peace and outer freedom."

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2000

Gilda, exactly what do you beleive? Are you a tree hugging environmentalist or are you a "New Ager"? I would honestly like to know if you are a committed Christian or what? Please inform me.

-- Anonymous, January 06, 2000

In the beginning there was more content above that I thought I would reply to. Interestingly enough, as I read back through some of it, I agree wholeheartedly with some of Mr. Gabbard's comments. Gee, maybe we could even be friends!? I wonder if I told you how I can shoot right in between the eyes of a bullfrog sitting on the opposite bank of a pond - with a .22, of course) - how I can shoot 100 out of 100 clay pigeons - and how I started hunting with my Daddy when I was 10 years old and was striking a match with a b.b. gun - when I was 14 - which none of the boys in the neighborhood could do - try as they might - would you see me in a different light?? NOt that it should matter anyway - but if you DID - then I would mess it all up again, anyway, by telling you I've been a vegetarian for the past 19 years and couldn't bring myself to shoot anything anymore. Ha!

I only bring this up because of your references to deer hunting. It turns my stomach and I have similar reactions, probably, to Gilda - but I'd be the last person to try to convert you - not my job - don't have time - not my life - I won't even tell you it's wrong - it obviously isn't wrong for you. This is just what works for ME in MY life. That works for YOU in YOUR life. Condemnation of Gilda or anyone else seems rather immature and silly - "labels" mean nothing - especially that "n.a." one - and let's not go here again, please! We all answer ONLY to our Creator - not to man - so, because of the attitude here towards her - I would think her (Gilda's) response to you Mr. Kelly, would be "none of your business". Sorry I have to say that. And, yes, Mr Gabbard, you certainly can tell a tree by it's fruit - you're not wrong there.

Mr. Kelly, I do appreciate your last reply to me with what I understand to be genuine concern on your part. Thank you for that. Doesn't Scripture tell us that when we pray for a specific thing in earnest, this is given to us - we are protected by God so that the adversary cannot take that away? I have always asked for what God wants me to know for my service here in this life - and for perfect discernment. I have never doubted that I would not be given that.

Let me first say that many American Indians DO NOT use any kind of drug - ever! A few use peyote - I believe VERY few. Some probably use "pot". However, if you think that is what's in their "pipes" - it isn't. Yes I know "witches" do lots of twisted things - BUT #1 thing to remember is that you NEVER NEVER NEVER would try to "control" someone else's life - there is a book written by a "born-again" (can't remember title or author) about how many christians are using "witchcraft" and not even realizing it by the way they pray for others. He is speaking of the way we sometimes pray "controlling" prayers. Use of an herb is not going to all of a sudden get one to try to cast a spell on someone!! Not if their intention is "God-centered" and pure, anyway. I never even come across people like this. You say that witches and sorcerers have used herbs to treat the ill for centuries.

What else was there - I ask you - before modern medicine came along? EVERYONE ELSE USED THEM TOO. Do you know how many times Essential Oils are mentioned in the bible? Does the bible not tell us that He has given us every herb-bearing plant, etc., etc??? THIS IS BIBLICAL TEACHING - not some off-balance airy fairy ca-ca. Pardon me - but I can't even believe we're having to go here. The essential oil of a plant is 50 to 80 times more powerful than the herb - but I guess you could refer to it as an herb also, with reference to what we're talking about here. In the Bible we are told how Jesus instructed his Disciples in the use of oils and they went forth and anointed the sick and they were healed. There are even recipes of certain oils to use for certain afflictions. Good grief!!

Do you hear what you are saying when you mention that the word "pharmacy" stems from the greek word for "sorcery"?? So what do you get at your local "pharmacy"?? Up until very recently, it sure wasn't herbs. I believe that it could be possible that in the Bible when it says the men of "pharmekia" will be judged with the liars and the thieves (do I have that right?), that not only will those men be the black sorcerers but possibly some modern-day doctors, who practice only for money and try to "play God" with some of the more modern-day advancement in medicine. And it is being proven that modern medical technology, over the years, has produced drugs that cause many side effects (Or even death) to the "temple" - over 80% of people in hospitals today are there due to a prescription drug-related disease - drugs are synthetic - our bodies are not - many drugs are actually synthesized from plants! And now it looks like man didn't do as good of a job as he thought he was - maybe should've gone along with more of Biblical teachings when it comes to healing. Herbs, plants, roots, etc. are made by our CREATOR - just like our bodies.

As to your reference to "pot" - all I have to say to that (in total agreement with you) is that it definitely kills ones spirit. Very tricky indeed. I am amazed at the number of Christians who think it's OK to do that once in awhile. I should say I am appalled. I get upset when someone says they're using it for a pain killer - there are many other "natural" remedies to kill pain that do not also deceive and kill the spirit. I really appreciated what you said about the Bible teaching "sobriety". I know those who like to argue that point - so that they can drink once in awhile, too.

So, I have been living this lifestyle for a little over 20 years. I research these things - my articles are published. I am not an idiot nor stupid nor blind nor deceived by Satan. I know you are being truly sincere here, or my spirit would be offended - again. To me I am holding up to EXACTLY what the Bible teaches in the ways of "healing". I can't help but think that those who DON'T see that are the ones who are being deceived. I am going to add something I posted on another thread - because I feel it pertains here also:

There is a book titled "Discovering The Mind of A Woman" by Ken Nair.You can probably find it in any Christian bookstore. "Most men do not realize that everyone has a spirit, and that they must be careful not to wound or damage the spirits of others ..... Wounding the spirit of a person .... is a good way to crush and inwardly destroy a person, as the writer of Proverbs reminds us in Proverbs 18:14 'The spirit of a man will sustain him in sickness, but who can bear a broken spirit?'"

I realize I am going a little off this thread - however it almost seems that some on this board are dedicated to the above - I certainly feel my spirit has been attacked and have seen that that has happened to others here also. ".... verbal uncertainties have grown as a result of her husband's [a man's] not knowing how to tap into his wife's [a woman's] spirit. He doesn't know how to listen to his wife's [a woman's] words and realize that she is communicating much more than mere words. He needs to listen to her heart and understand what it means to affirm her as a person, as Christ would."

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000

Genesa,

I want to appologize to you for offending you in any way. I surely did not want to do that. But, what I wanted to get across to you are legitmate concerns. I do not think I am way off base when I ask Gilda what she believes. I would honestly like to know, so I can properly answer her questions or better understand her reasoning. I do want to make an ill informed argument.

As to the Greek pharmakia, we (you or I) cannot deny the Biblical use of the word, we just have to make sense of the implications. I do personally believe too many doctors and scientist play god with their research. Something are better left alone. Such is the case with fetal research. Research institutes claim that using aborted babies is ok in the name of science. But, we know it is murder and it is wrong. We must be very careful in what we do and say. Paul said that we must work out our salvation with much fear and trembling. If you read Luke, often what you see Jesus doing is casting a demonic spirit out of sick people. Most of the diseases that "spirits were cast out of" could be labled a disease that we cure through medicine. Are we silencing out the demons by drugs? Perhaps.

Please, what I say is due through years of biblical research and with much prayer. This is not the talk of an ignorant yahoo. The American Indians as well as other cultures have used herbs in their witchcraft. It is the same with vodoo doctors in Haiti, who use ilicit drugs to conjure evil spells to control people. There is a real spirit world, and we are in a real struggle against the enemy. True, there are real nut cases who go overboard, but we must also take a balanced approach. Satan wants you to believe in lies not the truth.

-- Anonymous, January 07, 2000