Given the number of indications that petroleum pipelines will be shutdown for the rollover, I'm wondering how the shutdown of N.G. lines would affect a homeowner in terms of both function and safety.

1. Is there enough residual pressure in the system to keep it functioning during that period? Would that depend on whether there is any provision for local storage of N.G.?

2. Would it really be advisable, for safety reasons, to turn off one's gas supply during that period? Would that depend on how long the pipeline had been shutdown? (I know how to turn it off, but for safety reasons I would rather the gas company turned it back on, and who knows when they would be available.)

I apologize if this has been addressed before (I seem to recall the general questions, but not an answer). I'm posting this thread on the general rather than the prep forum, because I'm thinking the answers go to how the pipelines function, so an explanation by this forum's experts may be in order. TIA.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), December 10, 1999

Answers

I haven't seen, nor do I expect, the nat gas lines to do rollover shutdowns. I'm not saying they won't have problems (ie electricity) but relative the complexities of foreign oil production, shipping, refining and distribution the production and ditribution of natural gas is fairly strightforward. Its the refined products pipelines and one or 2 crude lines that have announced rollover shutdowns, not natural gas.

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), December 10, 1999.

The brochure from my NG provider explains that accidents, such as an excavator hitting a gas line while digging, will be most likely to blame for an outage.

It focuses on "protecting your plumbing" first off. It says to keep one tap dripping for a short outage. For a longer outage where you are concerned about your plumbing freezing, think about turning off the main water supply at the water meter in your home. In addition to clearing the water from pipes by flushing toilets and by opening all taps, it also says to put some RV type antifreeze in toilets, sink traps and floor drains. And it says for maximum protection of your plumbing, all lines should be blown out with compressed air. No definition of what a short or a long outage is. No suggestion of where to get the compressed air, particularly if the power happens to be off at the same time.

It says nothing about gas lines themselves. It goes directly to "what to do when the gas comes back on" without saying how we would know that it is back on. It stresses there are two things you may need to do to restore your natural gas supply to your home and get your gas appliances running again: reset your regulator, and re-light your appliances.

Gas pipelines have no embeddeds? No SCADA? No computerized rate and flow monitoring? That's good news, Downstreamer.

-- Rachel Gibson (rgibson@hotmail.com), December 10, 1999.

Ya but we sure don't want to see air in the lines if it does happen, now do we! And I hope if it does happen that all the very old ladies and men get help in lighting the furnace and hot watter tank, and I hope that everyone doesn't attempt to light the furnace and the same time (persure drop) because it would cause systems to shut down. justthinkin

-- just think (justthinkin@y2k.com), December 10, 1999.

Rachel,

You're overstating my contention.

-- Downstreamer (downstream@bigfoot.com), December 10, 1999.

Brooks,

I've heard that natural gas is susceptible for a number of reasons. Check with your utility to see if unusually large numbers of field staff will be on standby for the rollover.

Also if residential natural gas goes off, electricity will likely go down to.

-- earl (ejrobill@pcpostal.com), December 10, 1999.

Am I wrong about this? I thought that the NG pipelines have electric pumps that pump the gas through the pipeline. If there is a distruption in gas somewhere in the main pipeline technicians know via computer monitor where the location of the disruption is. Also, the pumping or distribution station where odorant is added to the natural gas is all computerized. One such disruption occured here about 3 weeks ago. It was not computer related, a contractor dug into the gas line but it was still detected by a computer because of the drop in pressure. Not too long ago (maybe 2 months), too much odorant was added to the natural gas. As a result, the gas company was getting a lot of gas leak calls from customers. Even if you have natural gas coming to your home and the power is out, you will not be able to operate your furance or any electronically fired gas appliance. You may have hot water, but if the water plant is shut down you won't have any water anyway. If you turn off your gas for any reason, the gas company advises that you do not turn it back on yourself. All gas appliances must be checked and the service person clocks the gas meter to assure that the proper amount of gas is regulated.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 10, 1999.

This is an older article but gives a good indication of the scope of Natural Gas risks

 Natural Gas: A Vital But Noncompliant Industry

-- Brian (imager@home.com), December 10, 1999.

Thanks for the link, Brian.

Downstreamer

The word "foreign" has different meanings for different people. So does the word "weather."

-- Rachel Gibson (rgibson@hotmail.com), December 10, 1999.

Re the post of no electronics or imbedded chips in nat. gas lines, WRONG!

I live right next to a major gas line serving the southeast (I think the trade name is "The Plantation Pipeline".

There is a valve/service assembly just beyond my fence. There are more elect boxes and conduit connected to this stuff than you would find in a medium office bldg. Plus, there has been ongoing work on this site for the last 4 months. The crew is out there as I write this.

I have been here 10 years, and this is not normal. Rarely more than just a brief service call. My understanding of the "Pipeline" is it is designed to "failsafe". That means, if the monitoring computers don't like the data coming in, the valves auto close!

Happy New Year

-- Pipe Line (gasman@boom.com), December 10, 1999.

After talking with both the fire chief of my town and the gas guy who came out to check on the new gas line for my generator, I learned the following: If natural gas flow is "interrupted" to our region, or even just our town, for even a few minutes, (this would be after residual pressure was consumed), the time to get the gas flowing again would be at least one month , if not longer. When the gas pressure drops to where pilot lights cannot stay lit, the supply must be shut off.

A human has to go to every gas "customer" and shut the valve off and lock it.

After this has been done to every meter, and the gas flow is restored, they have to go back to each customer/meter and unlock the valve, turn it on, then make sure all pilot lights are lit.

Then they go to the next house, and the next and the next...

The fire chief was not optimistic when I asked what the contigency plan for that was. His concern was people using candles and starting fires to keep warm, which would result, inevitabley, in houses catching fire. well, more houses than normal.

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), December 10, 1999.

Which problem would you rather have:

1) NG gaslines shut down

2) Valve switching error causes H2S to be pumped into the NG lines

In 1981 the latter occurred in Santa Barbara County, CA when the Flores Flats (Chevron) facility had that very switching error. We had to start a nighttime evac. of the Lompoc and Santa Ynez Valleys.

-- Darby (DarbyII@AOL.com), December 11, 1999.

Rachel,

You indicated that Nat. Gas pipelines had no embeddeds or SCADA systems. This is absolutely incorrect. Bruce Beach did some onsite investigations of the Nat Gas embedded systems/SCADA problems and posted a lengthy evaluation on the following website page.

http://www.webpal.org/Gas.htm

Simply put. The Nat. Gas industry has many of the same type of pipeline problems that the oil industry has. There are other Industry websites that will also confirm this if you go digging deep enough.

-- R.C. (racambab@mailcity.com), December 11, 1999.

RC

If you read carefully what I wrote you will realize I already knew that. Our homes are heated with natural gas; its loss would be a primary concern, especially because of explosions and of house fires. I live in an area with a surplus of oil, sweet gas, and natural gas. But I'm not certain it will continue to flow.

-- Rachel Gibson (rgibson@hotmail.com), December 12, 1999.

Rachel - in your city of 800,000+ - say 300,000 dwellings all heated by natural gas, manually being reconnected if the gas was interrupted. Probably take till next winter for all the servicemen to reconnect.

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), December 12, 1999.

Hi, Laurane

Oh, no...if you've kept up with Craig's thread you've seen that Atco's latest brochure gives us instructions complete with diagrams and photos on how to reset our regulators ourselves! They are well aware of the time it would take their 40 employees to do the resetting themselves and will be relying on us to do it ourselves.

There's now more, from yesterday's news: Enmax is spending the month of December teaching citizens how to make lanterns, and Alberta and B.C. food banks are now complaining to the media that their stocks are a way lower than usual at this time of year "because people are stocking-up for y2k and not donating as they usually do."

-- Rachel Gibson (rgibson@hotmail.com), December 12, 1999.