In another thread (Stain Glass..p2 (concerning the poor)), there is thread trying to break out on, basically, "Is it possible for a congregation to get too big?" and "Do congregations sometimes get big enough that the only thing to do is to plant another nearby congregation?". I decided we need to separate this out into its own thread.

So far, the comments made:

Jeff Skinner: We are filling the walls to the brim and already have three services. I dont care where we worship, abandoned K-Mart or whatever, but there is not a place in this town that could house as many people as we have. The debate here is to build this multimillion dollar building on the grounds we have but I am against that as well. What a waste. I suggest planting a church south of us where there is not one for people to go to. ... What to do, what to do? What is the differance in paying rent or paying to own?

Nelta Brock: Jeff you and Mark were discussing what to do when there are VERY LARGE numbers of people meeting together. The purpose of gathering together with other Christians is to interact with them and encourage and edify one another. This cannot be done in large groups. Christians much know each other...they must know their spiritual and physical needs. What is a good number? IMO about 40 people can do this successfully. Other numbers might also work.

Jon F. Dewey: Why, if the congregation is "too big" for facilities, don't any organizations make more smaller congregations, instead of insisting on being a mega-church? (That is just a curiousity question.) As far as churches are concerned, I am not convinced that bigger equals better.

As we let this thought continue in a separate thread, I would like to add to it. A little more than two years ago, I was in what could be considered a "mega-church". Those involved in service of some kind was less as a percentage of membership than any congregation I have ever been involved with. After a brief debate/war over evangelism approaches in the congregation, mostly among the ministeral staff, two staff members felt uncomfortable staying and left. Other members left too, and some of them talked those two staff members into putting together a new church planting (actually that was something discussed in the debate/war). We formed a church, with the intent of really never letting the congregation get too large -- when the size and leadership was there, the church was to "multiply", that is, where there was a concentration of members away from the current meeting site, a new congregation would be planted there. This process was to be repeated, and the new congregations would jointly meet for worship on a regular basis (monthly or quarterly), and there would be some shared ministries (all congregations might have a youth ministry, but one congregation might have an addiction support ministry, another a food pantry, etc.). A shared ministry might be hosted by one congregation, but the services and volunteer opportunities would be open to all. The idea of such a model for church growth would be that the disciples would be challenged by the increased leadership oppportunities and have the best of both worlds between small and large churches: the intimacy of small churches and the number of ministry opportunities of large churches.

So, what are your thoughts on congregational size? What are your models of when it is time to plant a congregation, or do you simply grow bigger and bigger?

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

Answers

Big doesn't necessarily mean bad, but big can lead to certain negative outcomes. As you have observed, in large churches the few do the work, and the remainder seem to be "just members." It just seems to me that it is easy to "hide" in a large congregation, while in a smaller one the motivation for service is greater because the need is more clearly seen. But I think there are solutions, and let me offer three.

I prefer to call these "models". The first I call the "Yoido" model after the Yoido Church in Seoul, Korea. This church has membership of over 500,000. (Yes, you saw that right - half a million.) The second I call the "Sunday School" model. It is similar to the first, but more in keeping with western church traditions. The third I call the "missions" model.

In the Yoido Church, members are assimilated and maintained in home church cell groups. The primary arm of the church is not the one from the building, but the home churches. Some members may never attend service in the "mother" church building at all, but receive discipleship and perform worship in the home church. (I was told when I visited there that attendance at the main church building by new converts was often discouraged, because their point of contact with the church was the local home group.)

Yoido is a very structured church, with layers in a pyramidal hierarchy which, while the church itself is quite large, actually acts as a series of small groups which are linked together through a chain of authority and accountability. The leader of the home cell church is considered to be the pastor of that church. Evangelism and visitation is performed by the home cell church.

In the Sunday School model, evangelism, training and other ministry areas are performed by the Sunday School class. The Sunday School class is the small group in which the members identify and fulfill their social and other needs. In some cases members can have their physical needs met as well, since in the small group setting members can get to know each other more intimately. All members retain their ties to the overall church, but have their needs met through the smaller Sunday School class group. Evangelism and visitation, which would have previously been considered only a pastoral responsibility, is conducted by the Sunday School departments. High laity involvement is implied for this method to work.

The third model I call the "mission" model. In it, the "mother" church, after either getting to a certain size, or upon developing the required leadership, has some of the membership leave to start a new independent church in a different location where the process begins anew. This is very similar to what the brother described in his post about what his church was doing.

All three of these approaches require that the church will have high expectations of their members. Pew warmers are discouraged. There are definite expectations of church members, and these expectations are made clear BEFORE a person can join the church. Members are expected to be participants in the work, not spectators.

I anticipate that there will be criticism of my suggestions as not being biblical or New Testament. Actually, the first and third models are the closest to NT churches. What we have in America is very far from the NT example.

These are just ideas to help stimulate thinking. If you want to know more about the cell/home church idea, I recommend reading "A Call to Discipleship" by Juan Carlos Ortiz. There is also a new book out called "High Expectation Churches" (I can't remember the author's name, unfortunately) which talks about the Sunday School and its importance in getting and keeping new members.

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

The "Sunday School" approach was used very successfully by the Christian Church in St. Petersburg, FL.

For a number of years, this congregation ran at or just above 1000 in attendance at Sunday worship services. They also ran at or just above 1000 in Sunday School.

I remember speaking with Eddie Fine, who was one of the associate ministers at the time, and he stated that there were occasional Sundays where there were more in attendance at Sunday School than at the worship services.

I also remember the "formula" they used to start new Sunday School classes. There had to be (a) a teacher; (b) a class secretary; and (c) someone dedicated to planning special fellowship events for the class.

I say all this to point out that at this particular congregation, the Sunday School classes became "little congregations" within the framework of the larger one. I know it worked for many years, but haven't heard recently how it's been going there.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

I guess I should post my "2 cents worth" re: the mega church.

How big is big enough? How big is TOO big?" I don't believe there is formula to answer these questions. It may sound trite to some, but we really have to leave this to the Lord.

Southland Christian in Lexington KY is certainly a mega congregation. They are running in the thousands every weekend (shouldn't be too long before they hit 10,000). I know of at least two other congregations they have extablished in the Lexington area ... there may be others.

They run a multiple staff situation (last time I counted, around 30 ministrial staff ... might be different now). Yet I know they have a good small groups ministry, and use the Sunday School classes the same way ... though they don't have near the percentage of Sunday School attendance -vs- worship attendance that St. Pete does (who does?).

Are they too big? Not if they are doing what the Lord has in mind for them to do in Lexington. There are so many diverse ministries that a large congregation such as Southland can provide for the Kingdom that smaller congregations can't. Yet, mega congregations aren't for everyone. In the Lexington area there are a number of other congregations running from less than a hundred through to around 1000 or so ... different size for different people.

Which is right? BOTH ... provided they are doing what God would have them do. I would enjoy serving a congregation that sees the need to grow large enough to train leaders to start other congregations. I don't know how large that would be ... 200 ... 500 ?????

Just one opinion ... with some additional thoughts thrown in the mix.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, December 06, 1999

I really like that answer brother.

I didn't say it earlier, but I think the answer really to "too big" is too big to be effectively doing the Lord's work and meeting people's needs. I have been to dynamic mega-churches, but have also been to ones that were just places to go to (no effectiveness, alienated members).

I don't think there is one "right answer" as far as methodology. I have never been a believer in the "one-size fits all" approach to anything. There are some general principles, but the application must be tailored to the individual church.

And I have the correct title and author for that book about Sunday School. (I had to look it up - my memory of it wasn't as good as I had hoped.) The book is called "High Expectations - The Remarkable Secret for Keeping People In Your Church" by Thom Rainer (Broadman & Holman Publishers). Hope this is helpful. I thought it was a fascinating book.

-- Anonymous, December 07, 1999

There was at one time a Big name preacher in the Akron/Canton area of Ohio that had the largest Sunday school ( Although I prefer Bible School) in the US, according to what I was told. It took many years for the preacher to see the need to start new congregations throughout the area. It is a Large area, and people came from all over. The Preacher and Church there got the message and today there are many new congregations that were started from this one and still that one congregation is still growing. Anyone know who I am talking about? I have seen struggling congregations who really needed the help that a larger congregation could give. How big is too Big, A Church is too big when it cannot see the needs of other struggling congregations or too big to see the need to start new churches.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 1999

I have trouble with the idea of *planting a congregation.* The ekklesia of God is the called out people of God who have accepted His grace through obedience to His will. The word *ekklesia* means the community of believers called out of the world into the kingdom of God. One cannot plant a community of believers. Either the community of Christ is in a place (one or more Christians) or is not. Anyway, I digress:

If we follow the example of the early Christians who knew the apostles, we will gather in groups for encouragement and edifying one another. That simply cannot be done in a group which is too large for the knowing of one another and for the elders who are among them to know each one and his spiritual needs, that they might teach him.These people who gather together interact with one another in a way they might confess their sins one to another. They sing to one another...etc.

Church is a mistranslation of the word *ekklesia* and leaves the wrong impression of God's people in a certain area being an *it* instead of simply God's people.

-- Anonymous, December 08, 1999