I'll start this thread coming from a recent post in the minister reports thread:

"I still say this, however, (and we can go off on a tangent on this one), I think more preachers are guilty of working too many hours to the neglect of their family as their pursue the world's definition of success."

I had to opportunity a couple of years ago to "pre-interview" with a senior minister re: an associate possition with the congregation where he served. This was a fairly large (500--1000) congregation in the eastern third of the U.S. Besides the senior minister, there were three other full-time associates. I would have been the fourth associate.

We spoke on the phone for about an hour. It didn't take very long to see that he expected himself, and all the associates, to put the congregation and their particular area of minister #1 ... before family or anything else. I shared with him that I was serving in my present ministry as the "equipping minister" for lack of a better term. I saw my "job' as equipping the members for ministry in the various areas they had been gifted by God in.

He really got on me for that, believing that it was a "cop-out" to not consider the congregation and the personal ministry as the #1 thing in your life. He actually said that it should come before family, or anything else. Now, I will assume his family agreed with him on this. If not, it certainly would be tough for him at home. But even if they did agree, my question for the forum would be: should we as "ministry professionals" put family first, "work" first, or something else first. Yes, I understand that Christ comes first and foremost. I'm not talking about our personal walk with the Lord, but the work we do. And yes, Nelta, I know you won't like the term "ministry professionals" so let's let that one lie and keep that discussion in some of the other threads. Thanks!

Anyway, I was wondering where folks stood on this issue. What do YOU think?

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 27, 1999

Answers

Sam....

So very well put.

I have intimate knowledge of Preacher's kids who hate anything that has to do with the church and have often ended up on the wrong side of the law.

I think we would be shocked at the number of P.K.'s in our "Children's Homes."

I am also intimately aware of P.K.'s who are still in the church...but....have had to fight years of bitter resentment and still to this day do not have the relationship they should with their fathers.

Allow me to again quote Roger Chambers in a charge he made at a minister's ordination....."Make your number one ministry to your family.....so that people will believe you when you tell them that."

Amen!!

-- Anonymous, November 27, 1999

Nelta.....

Everyone here has realized that it is "Bible things by Bible names as long as Nelta agrees with it."

You have no credibility Nelta because you have an "I know it all attitude" (which is incredible coming from someone with no knowledge of Greek or Hebrew and spends most of her time quoting Webster).

As I have stated in the past and continue to maintain....you....are a neo-orthodox "theologian."

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

Nelta....

All Darrell meant by the term "ministry professional" was simply those whose full time job is ministry...i.e., they do not work a secular job..i.e., tent make...but rather earn their living by the gospel.

As Paul stated in I Cor. 9:14.."the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living by the gospel."

There it is Nelta.....the Lord has commanded.

Now...go ahead as a good neo-orthodox theologian....tell us "how you feel about it".....and explain it away.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

My father was a minister when I was growing up. He was definately a "church and ministry first" kind of guy, with his family coming in as somewhat less important than the man who shined his shoes at the barber shop. Our most important reason for being was to add 5 more to the total attendance each week, whether we were sick or dead. My mother spent many, many Sundays in the church office tending to one or more sick children, so that we would be counted in the attendance.

It was a matter of pride with him that church members came first in everything he did. Our lives were put on hold, or ignored completely, if there was anything needed by anyone in the church.

So, in this discussion, I would say, from having lived thru it, and knowing my siblings'and mother's development, that the minister who puts his ministry and church ahead of his family is nurturing a breeding ground of dissension, rebellion, hatred for the church, and rejection of him by his own children, no matter how "together" they seem to be.

One of the bedrock necessities of an elder's life is that he manage his family well. A minister should be held to no less a standard. And if he's paying more attention to his job, then he's not really DOing his job. Not many preacher's kids will end up on the wrong side of rebellion, but many will grow to have a pronounced apathy toward the church and things spiritual because of the neglect of their family for the sake of "my ministry".

-- Anonymous, November 27, 1999

I do not know any PK's that hate the church, but I can imagine them being out there. I have three of them, but I have tried to put my family as part of my function as a minister. If preachers don't take care of their family, then how can they care for the church family? How can a preacher honestly try to save the world and let their own family go to hell in a basket or less? Simple, they have the wrong concept of their very own function. We are not saviors, we are mainly Christians who have the function of being in the pulpit. Preachers are no different than any other Christian except for the function. It isn't even our job to convict the people concerning sin, that is the Holy Spirit's job.

Is it difficult to keep the proper priorities? YOU better believe it, especially when the church looks at the function of a preacher and sees in him a man who must do everything or be everything to all people. I don't think that is exactly what Paul had in mind when he wrote that. The church may have broken away from the Priestly concept but the desire for the preacher to act like a priest (roman catholic) has not left us.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

IMO, the only answer for this question is found in the words of Jesus: "He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37. But wouldn't it be a sad testimony to lose one's first mission field: the immediate family.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

<>

Darrell,

It really isn't what *I* think about the term but what the Lord thinks about it. What happened to the plea of the Restoration, "Let us call Bible things by Bible names and do Bible things in Bible ways."

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

Claude --

"He that loveth father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:37. I agree. I think you will see in the original post that I was never stating that we, as Christians, should put anything before Christ. My question is, should we, as "ministry professionals" put the church, or better yet, the church work, before our families, to the neglect of our families. Certainly we can never put anything, even our families, before our relationship with Jesus Christ.

Darrell H Combs

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

You are ranting again, Danny. Is this not a Bible discussion forum? If you choose to *read and respond* to my posts do it with scripture and not the cutting down you have done for yea these many days.

How does knowning Greek or Hebrew have anything to do with words such as "Ministry professionals*? Not only are such as those words not in scripture but neither is the concept.

Now Danny, you said you were going to show me up as a false teacher. I'm willing for you to do that. Please do that with scripture, otherwise think of what Jesus thinks of your cutting remarks.

-- Anonymous, November 28, 1999

Your family is your first church.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 1999

Is the only measure of a ministry professional's (or any other Christian's) love for his Lord the amount of time he spends in or planning church programs, including calling, counseling, etc.? I do not think that this is the intent of Matthew 10:37. (If you want to see the verse, scroll up.) Forgive me if I'm incorrect, but that comment was not restricted to those in professional capacities; rather it was an evaluation of all who claimed to be disciples.

Our commitment to the Lord is probably best measured by how much we resemble Him in our attitudes and actions toward difficult people and situations. Do we stand out enough to attract others to Him?

I think it is also important to look at Paul's admonition in 1 Timothy 5:8 -- "If anyone fails to provide for his relatives, and especially for those of his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." While I realize that this verse is directed toward financial and material support, I would suggest that it might also offer insight in relational matters as well.

Many young men leave full time ministry because of pressure to leave their families "fatherless" in order to be "surrogate fathers" to church members old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers. Has anyone considered that some of these people need to grow up to become servants themselves? (But, that sounds like another thread.)

Back to 1 Timothy, we should consider how well any Christian man, leader or not, is supporting his wife's and children's spiritual development. In fact, this is an evaluation point in selecting men to serve as elders. Perhaps we should be more suspicious of a man's motives for "Christian service" when his family is never or rarely on the receiving end of that service.

God called Old Testament fathers to instruct their families in proper relationship to God during the course of everyday tasks. I doubt that He expects less of us under the New Covenant, and it's very hard to that when you aren't ever around.

May God help you as you do difficult tasks in His name.

-- Anonymous, December 13, 1999

On the AOL Christianity OnLine board and on the Bethany Bible College board I have put the following that I still think is totally relevant to any type of ministry (it is based on my experiences as a bi- vocational minister):

"Set your own priorities. I realize that there are many people and things pulling for your attention, but basically you have to decide what is important in your your life and for your individual congregation. Personally, I think your life must come first. Your first priority is your family. The church work is actually third after your full time job. I hate to prioritize like that, but it is a reality of life. You must provide for your family first. (I think it is almost proverbial about pastors/ministers neglecting their families for their ministries. It is not a good thing.) It is not necessary for you to attend every event and seminar that is given. If anyone doesnt like that, tough. Tell them to find another volunteer who will do the job you are doing. (Odds are extremely good that they can't.)

Its interesting that in many churches that a minister will be considered "qualified" or "unqualified" by 1 Timothy 3:1-5. You cannot serve if you have had more than one wife...BUT...after you get the job, you are required to neglect your family (which violates verses 4 and 5).

If we are going to apply the scripture, let's apply it completely. The problem is that, unfortunately, if we did that we would end up firing ALOT of people. Ooops.

-- Anonymous, December 14, 1999

I have read your interesting comments. Here are mine:

*Church work* is the individual work that is done day by day. Better yet, *community work* is what each person does as he goes about obeying and worshipping God, individually.. Scriptures are written to individuals. For the father who puts anything ahead of the care and rearing of his children is not obeying and worshipping God. All of the *church* work that is talked about by those who are engrossed in it, is not founded in scripture. It is all mere man-made. When one stands before almighty God to give an account for the deeds done in the body, he will have to account for the way he led his physical family, as he went about his daily life. He will have to answer for his treatment and care of other people, especially those of the household of God, as he went about his daily life.

Too many people are letting *church work* stand in the way of living a Christian life before God.

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

I have read many things on this forum with great interest but this thread has been particularly interesting to me. I have reread this thread several times but have not found any practical day to day answers for any young preachers out there who may be reading this forum and struggling with this very issue. We've stated the problem, argued over meanings of words but haven't given much help for how to handle ministry and family. I don't see it as an either/or situation but an all encompassing lifestyle. Having been a preachers kid and the wife of an evangelist the best example is my own husband. What does he do?? He gets up early every morning, many times at 4 am. Through out a typical day he manages to get office work done, visitation, bible study,sermon prep. etc. Each day he spends time with each of our children and me. He takes part in the lives of many members of the church, whether that be enjoying a cup of coffee with them or participating in their hobbies. That may be hunting or playing cards with the ladies who cook our fellowship meal every Wen. night at church. Many times at least one of our children accompanies him on these visitations. This helps our children also see how dad ministers to others so one day they may do the same. After all this he still finds time to do the things he enjoys, again including our children, who also loves the things he does. He helps in the home education of our children and still finds time to make me feel like the most important part of his life. He is constantly in the word and striving to increase his knowledge of God and his world. I could go on with more examples. They don't teach this stuff in Bible college, but boy they should. My point is he manages to do all the important things, wihout neglecting his ministry or his family. Will he ever be a "big shot" in the kingdom? Probably not, too many other important things to do. Is he a big shot to me, and three kids?? You bet!!!!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

I thought I was being specific in saying exactly how to balance family/ministry. Also keep in mind that different people require different applications of a solution, i.e., what works for me may not work exactly for you.

If anyone is interested, I will post my entire original post that I referred to above in a different thread. It was/is very specific about organizing life and work as an unpaid/bi-vocational minister. I wrote it in response to a question raised by a pastor of a very small church who wasn't full-time paid staff, but had to balance family and raising of teenagers.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999

The church should be the family of God therefor if one puts others in front of his or her own family they are doing christianity a injustice. Do we not live by an example to each other and to our own families? Did not Jesus tell us to evangilize our own before sending poeple off to foriegn places? This tells me that ones family while onseperatable from the church should always hold precedent over those who look to true Christians for inspiration and help in the world.

-- Anonymous, December 26, 1999

I have three little children and a beautiful wife that the Lord has blessed me with. I have a responsibility to them first. Yes, my family is a part of a larger church family... many of our social activities revolves around the church. Yet, much of what I do MUST revovle around quite family time with my wife and kids. I must spend time with my children- I cannot promise to take them somewhere- then break it to go calling. THe same is with my wife. The old saying "quantity is not as important as quality" is wrong- quantity will produce quality! My first mission is to raise my children in the Lord. Much of that is modeling a consistant lifestyle where I am always available to play with or just talk. For example, my wife an I often go on dates. This time cannot be interupted by board meetings (we do not have a church board- but for those who do I use this) or some committee meeting type meeting. I know many guys who in Bible College where A students, yet their marriage broke up for one reason or another once they entered the ministry. I personally believe that it means sacrifice on both parties, yet still we men must make time for our wife and children. We need to make them feel special and loved. You can not do that while on the golf course or in an Elder's meeting (none of these are wrong, if there is a balance). What influence do I have with the world or the church, if my wife leaves me or my children hate me or the church? Somehow we must show our families how much we love them, yet at the same time show them how important the Lord and His church is too. There needs to be balance.

-- Anonymous, December 27, 1999

As requested, this is on the more practical side. Growing up in a minister's home, some of the best times I remember were ways that I got to spend time with my Dad while he was working. He had a smaller, extra desk in his study where one of my siblings or I could join him while he did some office work; sometimes it meant sitting still and being quiet, but the effort was worth it. He often had special treats for us there - books and pictures and paper and pens and even a few toys and science explanations. Looking back, even though we went to public school, we were partly home-schooled. When he was doing a puppet group with jr. & sr. high schoolers, I convinced him that the older elementary grades (4-6) should be able to try it, too. (I was consciously looking for a way to spend more time with him.) He agreed to let some of us try it, and we did so well that he took us along on some of the performances at other churches. He took the time to help us make craft projects as gifts and to teach us how to do some types of work. That meant that garden, lawn and other jobs, and crafts took twice or five-times as long to do, but it trained us in enjoying and valuing work well-done. Another man I know who helps with calling, sometimes takes one or two of his sons along when visiting. It helps him to keep in touch with them while driving, and they get to see someone displaying how to "be prepared to give answer for the hope that you have". (The older boys even participate in some discussions.) Also, it allows him to be more accountable with time. e.g. "Well, I can't stay very long anyway since *** is along and needs to be home by ***." This is often a relief to the people he's visiting, as well. By the way, this fellow is a volunteer, not a "professional". Willingness to delegate many tasks to capable volunteers is imperative to maintaining sanity and balance. Plus it allows others to grow up spiritually, and isn't that part of the minister's or evangelist's job? Delegating also requires humility, which may be part of the problem in some cases, though not the only one. Back to my family, there were many times when things were postponed because of emergencies; but there were also times that he was able to do things with us, like eat lunch, that other dads couldn't because his schedule was more flexible. That flexibility was one of the great assets of my dad's time in full-time ministry which disappeared when he went into a "regular" job. Hope these ideas help!

-- Anonymous, December 30, 1999